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RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/19/2011 9:31:02 AM   
FirmhandKY


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

I think it is an example of why nothing can be solved in this country. If someone "gets" something then everyone that didn't "get" it is bitching when it is in their best interest that the problem be solved this way.

Oh, hell, DYB ...

Thanks for the quote.  I'm going to use it a few times, to some of the people around here. 

Firm


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Some people are just idiots.

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RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/19/2011 9:39:30 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

I still believe that the solution is not forgiveness, but adequately funding higher education so that tuition will be more within the reach of people. Like it used to be. That was the purpose of the state university systems, to make available an affordable education. They are now failing.


quote:

federal grants based on merit


I like these.

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Profile   Post #: 142
RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/19/2011 9:54:19 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

I think it is an example of why nothing can be solved in this country. If someone "gets" something then everyone that didn't "get" it is bitching when it is in their best interest that the problem be solved this way.

Oh, hell, DYB ...

Thanks for the quote.  I'm going to use it a few times, to some of the people around here. 

Firm



Well it makes it a great day then. You've come to the left side Firm! Welcome. I can now count on you to agree with Universal Single Payer Health Care,  Extra Taxation on the Wealthy, Adjusting the tax code to make it more equitable, fully funding education in this country, fully funding day care and head start.......Just a few that I am happy you have signed on cause you agree to the common good. I do appreciate it.

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Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/19/2011 10:15:06 AM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		I do.  I know a lot of people who spent a lot of money on shit and now can't afford to send their kids to school.  So, if their kids need student loans, do those get forgiven?
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

.

I dont know too many people who take such vacations, such as the Hawaii expedition.


_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

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Profile   Post #: 144
RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/19/2011 10:26:37 AM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		I would say way more than two different problems, but let me answer anyway.

If taxpayer money goes to "forgiving" existing loans, and that is who will pay for it, make no mistake about it, then that is even less money to support higher education.  It may be an unintended consequence, but it will be a consequence.

Allowing private student loans to be dischargeable in bankruptcy is a different issue than forgiveness.  I have already said I thought such loans should be dischargeable.  Banks will undoubtedly stop making private student loans or at least curtail them severely if that happens, but maybe that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

I have also already said that I believe the banks need to get back to traditional underwriting.  I don't know that the problem with student loans was that they were undocumented, or liar loans, that was more an issue with mortgage lending.  The only reason the banks were so lax about mortgages is because they incorrectly believed, just like everyone else, that housing prices would continue to go up and up and up.  The problem with student loans is that the banks probably did make some inappropriate loans, based on their belief that they weren't dischargeable.  Just because they can't be discharged doesn't mean the bank can collect, though, so I think some underwriting was still used.  They were still basically unsecured loans. 

I am certainly not one to defend the banks, but what misrepresentations do you think they were making, at least when it comes to student loans?

I guess another way to look at it is this.  While paying back my student loans ($700 per month!!!) and saving for my kids' education, I have probably underfunded my retirement.  Can I count on your support when I retire? 
quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Semi

Two different problems-

1) funding higher education. I agree that loans have been a disaster- federal grants based on merit worked better. But that's a separate problem than what's going on here.

2) Liar loans- same as the housing crunch. Banks knowingly loaning out money even though they did not have a reasonable expectation that the loans could be paid off. There's lots of blame to go around here- but I'm damned if I see protecting the banks profits as a taxpayer priority. Furthermore- the banks will bellyache that if people are allowed to declare bankruptcy to get rid of student loans, they'd never have made the loans in the first place.

Banks should be faced with a stark choice. Protect their profits- and then allow them to get sued and prosecuted for false representation and people go to jail- or people don't go to jail, but loans become principal only.

We have to learn from the mortgage crisis that protecting banks profits at all costs is a disaster- and leads to OWS- as well it should.


Sam


_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

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Profile   Post #: 145
RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/19/2011 10:57:39 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		Or maybe folks in trouble could make themselves into a bank and do this:

http://dailybail.com/home/holy-bailout-federal-reserve-now-backstopping-75-trillion-of.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheDailyBail+%28The+Daily+Bail%29

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Profile   Post #: 146
RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/19/2011 10:58:31 AM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		I AM a taxpayer.. I no longer get my tax refunds, because the govt is taking them towards my loans.. AND I am TOTALLY OK with that!!

what I am NOT ok with (given my circumstances as outlined previously) is having to sacrifice day to day living expenses to pay back on a loan that was not enough to to pay for the educationI was told it would. Hell, my student debt aty this point is under 10k... but I barely make it paycheck to paycheck.. (I truly only had .12 - yes.. TWELVE CENTS.. in the last 5 days of one pay period....).

Without having been able to finish my college courses (for the reason detailed above).



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Profile   Post #: 147
RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/19/2011 11:06:07 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Well it makes it a great day then. You've come to the left side Firm! Welcome. I can now count on you to agree with Universal Single Payer Health Care,  Extra Taxation on the Wealthy, Adjusting the tax code to make it more equitable, fully funding education in this country, fully funding day care and head start.......Just a few that I am happy you have signed on cause you agree to the common good. I do appreciate it.

You probably won't like the way I use it, DYB. 

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/19/2011 11:12:33 AM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Semi

Your first point assumes that the amount of money for higher education is fixed- and that loan forgiveness automatically entails other cuts in education. We've got lots of places to cut money- don't think this is a good place to start. However, at the end of the day, I'm not sure I really see much difference here.

Throwing out some numbers that are not going to reflect reality accurately, but are probably within a third.

Prior to bank student loans- let's say that a year of higher education cost $30k but the federal gov't picked up $20k and the remaining $10k was tuition. (probably back in the 80s). These days, with inflation, let's say that higher ed is $60k a year, but the feds only pick up $15k. If the feds would go back to picking up 2/3rd, there's a difference of $25k. If the principal outstanding on student loans is anywhere around $25k on average, it seems to me that if we forgive the principal- we're back to the feds picking up about 2/3rds of the cost of higher ed- which is what it was when I went to school. I don't really have a problem with this- since it seems to me that the kids today are getting screwed.

In terms of the banks believing that housing prices would continue to inflate- Hogwash! Anybody working in real estate with half a brain knew that it was a bubble- there was just too much money to be had to not be in it. The same goes for the student loans. There's no way that a kid can take out $75k in loans and expect to pay that back making less than $75k a year. Since a lot of the tech jobs being touted paid only $50k a year or less- and that was without full placement- then the banks knew damn well that they were making loans that couldn't be repaid. There was no guessing here- there were no errors in judgment- this was carefully calculated that the taxpayer would have to pick up the tab or that people would be in debt the rest of their lives. You wanna know why our economy is tanking? Money spent on bank interest doesn't develop new products or put people to work- it just makes bankers rich. It's called a "rentiers" economy- and we're living in it. Not surprisingly, China- not being a rentiers economy-is eating our lunch.


Sam

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/19/2011 11:21:31 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		This?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rentier_capitalism

Rentier capitalism is a term used in Marxism and sociology which refers to a type of capitalism where a large amount of profit-income generated takes the form of property income, received as interest, intellectual property rights, rents, dividends, fees or capital gains.

The beneficiaries of this income are a property-owning social class who, it is argued, play no productive role in the economy themselves but who monopolise the access to physical assets, financial assets and technologies. They make money not from producing anything new themselves, but purely from their ownership of property (which provides a claim to a revenue stream) and dealing in that property.

Often the term rentier capitalism is used with the connotation that it is a form of parasitism or a decadent form of capitalism.

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Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/19/2011 11:30:06 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Well it makes it a great day then. You've come to the left side Firm! Welcome. I can now count on you to agree with Universal Single Payer Health Care,  Extra Taxation on the Wealthy, Adjusting the tax code to make it more equitable, fully funding education in this country, fully funding day care and head start.......Just a few that I am happy you have signed on cause you agree to the common good. I do appreciate it.

You probably won't like the way I use it, DYB. 

Firm



As long as it is stipulated that you agree with the things I mentioned above....then have at it

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Profile   Post #: 151
RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/19/2011 11:33:03 AM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		Well, I kind of hate to say the obvious Sam, but what are we talking about here?  Does everyone with an SL get it waived, or just some people?   Who decides and how?  What if a bank did make a student loan, believing there were means to pay it back and that they even evaluated the likelihood of the student getting a high paying job after college.  Are they still the bad guy?  Should those loans get forgiven too?
I understand your numbers, but I think you are missing something.  Forgiving student loans might help people who have already gone to school, and helps them get the federal largess of 2/3rds of their education that you use in your example.  How does it help people who are in school now, or will be in the future?  If money is going to pay back loans that were previously borrowed, how does that help finance education in the future?   The other thing you are missing is that the state university systems are largely funded by the states, not the feds.  So, how does that affect your thinking?  For one thing, all these cuts you think can be made from other areas to finance education?  I don't see that happening.  State funding for my state's universities has been cut 50% in the last three years, along with every other program that could be remotely considered discretionary.
I work in real estate, and I know a number of people, including some very sophisticated people, who honestly did not know that the RE market was going to collapse, certainly as far and as fast as it did.  So, I have to disagree with your statement that "anyone with half a brain" knew it was a bubble.  I will agree that banks made loans they shouldn't have, and then screamed for a bail out, and it pisses me off.  I had misgivings about bailing them out, and I continue to have misgivings about tax money ( or worse, borrowed money) being used to bail out anyone, individuals or corporations.

Lastly, I haven't researched this, but I believe the vast majority of student loans are at least Federally Guaranteed, rather than absolutely private loans made by the banks.  I do think private loans should be dischargeable in bankruptcy.  That will more or less eliminate the problem of lax underwriting.



< Message edited by Iamsemisweet -- 10/19/2011 11:34:14 AM >

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to samboct)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/19/2011 11:37:23 AM   
samboct


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Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Kalikshama

Actually, I had more in mind this: http://economistsview.typepad.com/economistsview/2011/06/paul-krugman-rule-by-rentiers.html

Sam

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Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/19/2011 6:42:05 PM   
KeriB


Posts: 315
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline 		Okay, so here is a rough breakdown of the way the federal government spends money on higher education.

http://febp.newamerica.net/background-analysis/federal-higher-education-programs-overview


Someone mentioned banks doing bad student loans. They very much do do this, because after 2005 with the law change private student loans became non-dischargable in bankruptcy, thus allowing banks to give students loans that they knew the student was probably not going to be able to pay back, but the student would be on the hook for them until they were dead. When the private student loan people look up your credit they can see just how many loans someone already has along with all your other debt. For a single bank to give out roughly 48,000 in student loans to someone who they could see already had about the same amount in Federal student loans, is just stupid.



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Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/19/2011 8:14:06 PM   
samboct


Posts: 1817
Joined: 1/17/2007
Status: offline 		Semi

OK, I did some digging here, because I realized I didn't know what I thought I did. This is a complicated mess.

Some Democratic senators and congressman agree that private bank loans need to be dischargeable in bankruptcy:

http://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/student-loan-ranger/2011/06/22/congress-proposes-relief-for-student-loan-borrowers

Turns out that private bank loans are about half the size of the federally guaranteed loans, but make more profits for banks. (I can't keep track of all the links- but I think the numbers are roughly $2B profit and $3B respectively.

One of the good things that the Democratic congress did was to revamp the federal loan system- taking it out of the hands of the banks and putting into the Dept. of Education- this was before the 2010 elections. Republicans and banks have been screaming about this one.

A big chunk of the problem has been the for profit schools- at least double the default rate in two years and what may be 3/4ths of these loans defaulting during their lifetime.

It's quite clear that the federal loans rather than grants have been a disaster- we now have over $1T worth of educational debt which is now larger than household credit card debt. This is dumb- it's the rentiers economy alluded to earlier.

Sam

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Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/19/2011 10:45:23 PM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		God Sam, thanks for looking that up. I had no idea student loan debt exceeded credit cards. Holy shit.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

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Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/19/2011 10:48:01 PM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		It occurs to me that a lot of the private debt is probably guaranteed by the parents of the student, for younger borrowers. Even if the kid goes bankrupt,the parent is still on the hook.
quote:

ORIGINAL: KeriB

Okay, so here is a rough breakdown of the way the federal government spends money on higher education.

http://febp.newamerica.net/background-analysis/federal-higher-education-programs-overview


Someone mentioned banks doing bad student loans. They very much do do this, because after 2005 with the law change private student loans became non-dischargable in bankruptcy, thus allowing banks to give students loans that they knew the student was probably not going to be able to pay back, but the student would be on the hook for them until they were dead. When the private student loan people look up your credit they can see just how many loans someone already has along with all your other debt. For a single bank to give out roughly 48,000 in student loans to someone who they could see already had about the same amount in Federal student loans, is just stupid.




_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to KeriB)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/19/2011 10:56:48 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		Yep,I'm still on the hook...but I volunteered

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Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/20/2011 2:25:16 AM   
AdorkableAiley


Posts: 920
Joined: 9/12/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

But mostly I said that cause I can see Firm heading down his "Gov't is always evil" trail and wanted to point out that his theory didn't make sense.

I have never said that "Gov't is always evil", DYB.  It is a necessary part of a civil society that should be watched, starved and properly caned on a regular basis, so that it doesn't start to think it is the master, rather than the servant.

Firm



Awesome!!

As for the rest of the thread, I went to school, like I have been told my entire life I should, got my masters in a field I was told had high needs for people. It was a field I loved and did very well; I graduated with a 3.89... that was in Dec of 2010 I have yet to find a job. Student loans aren’t knocking down my door because I was lucky to get all gov loans and no private ones, but when I do finally find something... I will be paying for a very long time, again even though the amount is outrageously high I am lucky in that they are all gov loans and there for I can go on affordable payment plans even if it means I will be paying forever it will at least mean I can live a good life while paying it. If, that is, I ever find a job!

To tell the truth I would't mind a little relief because the number can be very scary at times.

I think there should be some sort of repercussion for schools flooding the job market, that if a pre determined amount of time lapses without a graduate finding a job the school has to pay back the loan or something.

All in all I don’t mind paying back my student loans, I got a great education and enjoyed it a lot and if I can ever find a job, I know I’ll be happy with it I just wish I wasn’t scared that they may ruin the rest of my life.


Ailey

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Forgive Student Loans? - 10/20/2011 4:23:44 AM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		Have you thought about the Peacecorps, or Americorps, Alley? I think you can get some debt forgiveness from that.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to AdorkableAiley)
Profile   Post #: 160
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