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RE: Latest GOP-Libya gripe...you should have done it so... - 10/27/2011 9:46:04 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking

quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Masta808
Exactly, President Obama is NOT the Command and Chief of the US Military. He is NOT able to order Military operations based on what happens from Allies that were created by treaties.

It is the Commander in Chief, not "and Chief", of the United States Armed Forces. There you are right.
But he is able. He has done it.
And it is also legal, as stated in the law whose text I have linked in the post #50.
Samples of a President using exactly the NATO treaty and that law is seen in the next link, with the explanation why it is valid.
There you are wrong.

Keep in mind that a treaty of mutual defense, such as our commitment to NATO, is a declaration of war addressed 'to whom it may concern'. It's not a promise to 'consider' whether to come to an ally's aid. Our NATO commitment was signed by a previous President (Eisenhower?), and duly ratified by the Senate, as all treaties must be.

Dear Viking... before I start to go into the quite complex differences between a treaty of mutual defense and a declaration of war, I would like to ask you which is your point.
Maybe you misunderstood my message. It can happen, even if my English is not so bad, my thinking is strange for some people here, due to cultural differences or otherwise.
So... which was your point?
Best regards and with respect,

Eduardo

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Post #: 61

RE: Latest GOP-Libya gripe...you should have done it so... - 10/27/2011 2:21:08 PM

hlen5

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I guess you missed post #58??

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)

Post #: 62

RE: Latest GOP-Libya gripe...you should have done it so... - 10/27/2011 6:51:56 PM

tweakabelle

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It's odd that people continue to distinguish between Iraq and Libya for partisan political purposes.

Libya was justified on the grounds that a possible genocide was averted, and that a popular revolution against a hated tyrant was happening and needed support.

The same conditions existed in Iraq shortly after the end of Gulf War 1. Iraqi Shia had rebelled against Saddam Hussein after being expressly invited to do so by Bush the First. Appeals for help from the West fell on dear ears, even though there were good grounds for believing that SH would massacre his opponents (he did) and that the Shia revolt was " a popular revolution against a hated tyrant was happening and needed support". Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi Shia are believed to have been slaughtered by SH after the revolt petered out.

Despite the obvious parallels, no one from the Right is criticising Bush the First for his treachery (in inciting the revolt with the prospect of US intervention and support), or his refusal to intervene. It is clear that the Right is operating on two different standards here - if their guy does it's OK, if the other sides's guy does it, it is not OK.

Had Bush the First supported the Shia back then, there would have been no need for a second invasion of Iraq - indeed who knows how events may have unfolded?

_____________________________

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Post #: 63

RE: Latest GOP-Libya gripe...you should have done it so... - 10/27/2011 7:11:52 PM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

Had Bush the First supported the Shia back then, there would have been no need for a second invasion of Iraq - indeed who knows how events may have unfolded?

The prospective is to amazing I have to think that failing that was the most important error of that president in foreign politics.
I like that games of "what if...?" and this one is just amazing. The waves of that would have travelled all the way from Egypt to Tunisien by one side, from Iran to Palestina by the other, and to Israel from both. Even the recent history of Turkey could have been different.

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Post #: 64

RE: Latest GOP-Libya gripe...you should have done it so... - 10/27/2011 10:29:27 PM

FirstQuaker

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quote:

Libya was justified on the grounds that a possible genocide was averted, and that a popular revolution against a hated tyrant was happening and needed support.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

It's odd that people continue to distinguish between Iraq and Libya for partisan political purposes.

Libya was justified on the grounds that a possible genocide was averted, and that a popular revolution against a hated tyrant was happening and needed support.

The same conditions existed in Iraq shortly after the end of Gulf War 1. Iraqi Shia had rebelled against Saddam Hussein after being expressly invited to do so by Bush the First. Appeals for help from the West fell on dear ears, even though there were good grounds for believing that SH would massacre his opponents (he did) and that the Shia revolt was " a popular revolution against a hated tyrant was happening and needed support". Hundreds of thousands of Iraqi Shia are believed to have been slaughtered by SH after the revolt petered out.

Despite the obvious parallels, no one from the Right is criticising Bush the First for his treachery (in inciting the revolt with the prospect of US intervention and support), or his refusal to intervene. It is clear that the Right is operating on two different standards here - if their guy does it's OK, if the other sides's guy does it, it is not OK.

Had Bush the First supported the Shia back then, there would have been no need for a second invasion of Iraq - indeed who knows how events may have unfolded?

I don't have any problem condemning either one of these adventures, myself.

But it is pretty hard to claim one was legitimate while the other wasn't, as both were done based on bold and deliberate lying by some world leaders.

I suppose we will be hearing how Cameron is Sarkozy's lap dog in a few years.

Been looking at the likely economic results in Libya, the EUropeans are going to likely be in for a rude shock when they see who gets the oil contracts, it is likely to be a worse spanking then Iraq was/is, and if the US corporate criminals thought this would chase China out of Libya, they are going to be in for a real rude shock.

Looks like this is gonna be a Aramco/Qatari/Peking cleanup, with the Russians selling the equipment.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 65

RE: Latest GOP-Libya gripe...you should have done it so... - 10/27/2011 10:33:00 PM

FirstQuaker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

Had Bush the First supported the Shia back then, there would have been no need for a second invasion of Iraq - indeed who knows how events may have unfolded?

The prospective is to amazing I have to think that failing that was the most important error of that president in foreign politics.
I like that games of "what if...?" and this one is just amazing. The waves of that would have travelled all the way from Egypt to Tunisien by one side, from Iran to Palestina by the other, and to Israel from both. Even the recent history of Turkey could have been different.

The Shia are backed by Iran and the Bush buddies in the KSA would be having none of that Persian thing. And the Bush family are direct descendants of the Koran writer himself, they would not be turning their backs on their cousins in Riyadh.

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)

Post #: 66

RE: Latest GOP-Libya gripe...you should have done it so... - 10/27/2011 11:50:50 PM

SpanishMatMaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker
The Shia are backed by Iran and the Bush buddies in the KSA would be having none of that Persian thing. And the Bush family are direct descendants of the Koran writer himself, they would not be turning their backs on their cousins in Riyadh.

I was trying to make sense of that message but I failed, I am sorry.
For example... chances are that you are also a descendant of Mohammed, it is about 42 generations. Chances are that the 50% of the world population (and the number is so small due to the isolation of Chinese and Japanese) is by now descendant of Mohammed. I do not see the point.
Nor do I see the point of any other part of your message. I am really sorry.

_____________________________

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If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
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(in reply to FirstQuaker)

Post #: 67

RE: Latest GOP-Libya gripe...you should have done it so... - 10/28/2011 12:46:11 AM

FirstQuaker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirstQuaker
The Shia are backed by Iran and the Bush buddies in the KSA would be having none of that Persian thing. And the Bush family are direct descendants of the Koran writer himself, they would not be turning their backs on their cousins in Riyadh.

I was trying to make sense of that message but I failed, I am sorry.
For example... chances are that you are also a descendant of Mohammed, it is about 42 generations. Chances are that the 50% of the world population (and the number is so small due to the isolation of Chinese and Japanese) is by now descendant of Mohammed. I do not see the point.
Nor do I see the point of any other part of your message. I am really sorry.

Well the chance I am part Saudi are pretty low.

However the Muslim's Koran says that in future times all important nations will be ruled by the descendants of Mohammed, (Certain Shias believe this means only descendants of Mohammed are entitled to be rulers) and people like Bush and Obama are to their minds proof of this. Such people are regarded, among Muslims, much as direct descendant of Christ woudl be if some such were found, among certain traditional Christians.

Since they think the Koran is the direct word of their god . . .

Actually the House of Saudi isn't one such group of his descendants which makes them second string. But when the Moors invaded Spain their Seville branch intermarried with the local royal family and as Spain was top tier at the time, most the European nobility of any rank also are graced with this attribute.

The Fatima Dynasty in USA. What would you like to say ?
But this is no secret to genealogy wonks, nor is understanding how it might work hard for someone like me who comes from a society and culture where family and clan history is everything.

Notice the Muslim terrorists don't go after any of the royal families in the EU, ever wonder why only "white" terrorists attack those worthies? To a fundamentalist Muslim that would be like attacking one of Christ's offspring would be to a medieval European Christian.

quote:

”The royal family’s direct descent from the prophet Mohammed cannot be relied upon to protect the royal family forever from Moslem terrorists,”

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)

Post #: 68

RE: Latest GOP-Libya gripe...you should have done it so... - 10/28/2011 12:56:00 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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Dear Mr. FirstQuaker, I am sorry but I still cannot make any sense of your messages. Honestly. I understand the words but not the sense. What I seem to understand would be such a bunch of conspirative racist ignorant trash, that I am absolutely sure that you do not mean what I understand.

I give up. If you simply received from the the information that the huge majority of the population of all American, African and Middle East countries are already descendants of Mohammed, then I am happy with that small result.

And a huge part of the population of India.

For every person living in the time of Mohammed, who had enough descendants to have now any descendants at all, there are for sure millions of descendants. This is the result of a simple and basic calculation, but to make it even more simple...

1. If every person had two children.
2. And none of the descendants had children with other descendants (which is realistic only for the first generations).
... then you would have 1024 descendants in 10 generations, more than a million in 20, a billion in 30 and a trillion in 40.

Of course, some people have less children... and some have more. And of course when the percentage of descendants in a population is high enough, they start to interbreed massively. This is why I am not saying that Mohammed has septillions of descendants after more than 60 generations. But he has the majority of the population of most of the world. You. Me. Everybody in this forum.

The fact that Mohammed had 13 wives or concubines, and who knows how many lovers during his successful career, indicates the that progression could be even faster (every exponential progression is hardly dependent on its first values).

If I could make you understand this, then I am happy. I renounce to try to understand anything else from your posting. I am sorry.

Best regards.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 10/28/2011 1:07:25 AM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to FirstQuaker)

Post #: 69

RE: Latest GOP-Libya gripe...you should have done it so... - 10/28/2011 1:23:33 AM

FirstQuaker

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Joined: 3/19/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

Dear Mr. FirstQuaker, I am sorry but I still cannot make any sense of your messages. Honestly. I understand the words but not the sense. What I seem to understand would be such a bunch of conspirative racist ignorant trash, that I am absolutely sure that you do not mean what I understand.

I give up. If you simply received from the the information that the huge majority of the population of all American, African and Middle East countries are already descendants of Mohammed, then I am happy with that small result.

And a huge part of the population of India.

For every person living in the time of Mohammed, who had enough descendants to have now any descendants at all, there are for sure millions of descendants. This is the result of a simple and basic calculation, but to make it even more simple...

1. If every person had two children.
2. And none of the descendants had children with other descendants (which is realistic only for the first generations).
... then you would have 1024 descendants in 10 generations, more than a million in 20, a billion in 30 and a trillion in 40.

Of course, some people have less children... and some have more. And of course when the percentage of descendants in a population is high enough, they start to interbreed massively. This is why I am not saying that Mohammed has septillions of descendants after more than 60 generations. But he has the majority of the population of most of the world. You. Me. Everybody in this forum.

The fact that Mohammed had 13 wives or concubines, and who knows how many lovers during his successful career, indicates the that progression could be even faster (every exponential progression is hardly dependent on its first values).

If I could make you understand this, then I am happy. I renounce to try to understand anything else from your posting. I am sorry.

Best regards.

As it bears on the Saudi/Libyan end (and the Shia/Sunni factional dispute) is that while you might wonder why the conservative house of Saud has to support and create a "conservative" Sunni establishment (the Sunnis nromally being the "liberal end of the Muslim beliefs), it is because the Shias deny their legitimacy to rule Saudi Arabia, for according to their interpretation of the Koran, only a descendant of Mohammed is fit to rule, and that the Sauds are not.

KDaffy apparently spent some time and effort "proving" his background included being a descendant of Mohammed, thoug some Berber mythos while there was certain amount of effort put into denying this by his detractors.

But be that as it may, the ruling families in Eurasia usually keep good track of their offspring, most of them know exactly who they are and don't spend their time consorting with the masses, for any amount of trouble can occur if various bastards and other illicit children appear and ursurp thrones or lead rebellions, never mind in ordinary inheritances and such.

But why do you think it is racist to point out just how far this clan has spread, or how they end up like the "Turkish" clan of cheiftans, ruling vast swaths of the planet? Writing a holy book ordering your children and their descendants are to be rulers to any who follow this holy book was a marvelous scheme.

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)

Post #: 70

RE: Latest GOP-Libya gripe...you should have done it so... - 10/28/2011 1:46:06 AM

FirstQuaker

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And just to help you out, you need to bone up on this man, for he is the official start of this thing -

quote:

Ali's descendants by Fatimah are known as sharifs, sayeds or sayyids. These are honorific titles in Arabic, sharif meaning 'noble' and sayed or sayyid meaning 'lord' or 'sir'. As Muhammad's only descendants, they are respected by both Sunni and Shi'a, though the Shi'as place much more emphasis and value on the distinction

Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib

Statistical probability of anyone being this or that aside, if you are not in the line, you are not a ruler by the Koranic interpretations various factions have.

Interesting the Bush family, Obama, Clinton or Queen Lizzie are all more qualified to rule Saudi Arabia by the published Muslim rules then the locals monarchs are, but that no stranger then how the Europeans sort out who sits on their thrones.

As for Libya the House of Saud wants that ancient territory of theirs back under their thumb regardless of any Koranic interpretation.

< Message edited by FirstQuaker -- 10/28/2011 1:47:33 AM >

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)

Post #: 71

RE: Latest GOP-Libya gripe...you should have done it so... - 10/28/2011 2:06:26 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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Dear Mr. FirstQuaker: I am sorry I still do not understand anything. I hope my point was clear. Thousands of millions are descendants of Mohammed. Have a nice day.

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Post #: 72

RE: Latest GOP-Libya gripe...you should have done it so... - 10/28/2011 2:24:30 AM

FirstQuaker

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

Dear Mr. FirstQuaker: I am sorry I still do not understand anything. I hope my point was clear. Thousands of millions are descendants of Mohammed. Have a nice day.

Perhaps pointing out KDaffy's sin, was overturning one of the Koran writers descendants to take rule in the mans place, might help you -

Al-Senussi was born in al-Wasita near Mostaganem , Algeria ,[1] and was named al-Senussi after a venerated Muslim teacher. He was a member of the Walad Sidi Abdalla tribe, and was a sharif tracing his descent from Fatimah , the daughter of Mohammed .

If you are not on the official Muslim list of such descendants from Fatima and Ali it doesn't count, any more then if the King of Spain might have really been you great greet etc granfater by virtue of his dalliance with a tavern wench.

Saddam had a similar problem in Iraq, he helped kill a load of such "official" descendants and eventually took their place.

It is interesting how the EUropeans, many of whom are nominally led by members of this clan, are helping the House of Saud go around and "fix" these rulership problems in the Muslim world.

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)

Post #: 73

RE: Latest GOP-Libya gripe...you should have done it so... - 10/28/2011 2:35:11 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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Dear Mr. FirstQuaker, no, it did not help. One thing are official descendants of somebody in some list, other thing the real ones, specially after 60 generations. I still do not understand you or your point. I hope my point was clear. I am going to ignore your next message because I also do not understand why are you still answering to me.

PS: I get my information about what is important for Muslims, from Muslims. I know enough of them. Thank you.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 10/28/2011 2:45:43 AM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 74

RE: Latest GOP-Libya gripe...you should have done it so... - 10/28/2011 2:43:01 AM

FirstQuaker

Posts: 787
Joined: 3/19/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

Dear Mr. FirstQuaker, no, it did not help. One thing are official descendants of somebody in some list, other thing the real ones, specially after 60 generations. I still do not understand you or your point. I hope the point was clear. I am going to ignore your next message because I also do not understand why are you still answering to me.

Good then your descendants still will be marveling at why some things happen in the Muslim's world in 60 generations. However all you need to know is the Islamic world takes this seriously and kills each other over it as certainly as the Christian world has been known to..

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)

Post #: 75

RE: Latest GOP-Libya gripe...you should have done it so... - 10/28/2011 4:30:12 AM

Politesub53

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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

Notice the Muslim terrorists don't go after any of the royal families in the EU, ever wonder why only "white" terrorists attack those worthies? To a fundamentalist Muslim that would be like attacking one of Christ's offspring would be to a medieval European Christian.

More absurd nonsnese. I would have replied sooner but I have only just stopped laughing.

(in reply to FirstQuaker)

Post #: 76

RE: Latest GOP-Libya gripe...you should have done it so... - 10/28/2011 5:28:27 AM

SpanishMatMaster

Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

Notice the Muslim terrorists don't go after any of the royal families in the EU, ever wonder why only "white" terrorists attack those worthies? To a fundamentalist Muslim that would be like attacking one of Christ's offspring would be to a medieval European Christian.

More absurd nonsnese. I would have replied sooner but I have only just stopped laughing.

Six million people in Pakistan even say publicly that they are offspring of Mohammed. One of Al Qaeda's favorite target for terrorist attacks. If you understand the same as me, then this man is completely nuts.

_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
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(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 77

RE: Latest GOP-Libya gripe...you should have done it so... - 10/28/2011 5:31:50 AM

FirstQuaker

Posts: 787
Joined: 3/19/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SpanishMatMaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

Notice the Muslim terrorists don't go after any of the royal families in the EU, ever wonder why only "white" terrorists attack those worthies? To a fundamentalist Muslim that would be like attacking one of Christ's offspring would be to a medieval European Christian.

More absurd nonsnese. I would have replied sooner but I have only just stopped laughing.

Six million people in Pakistan even say publicly that they are offspring of Mohammed. One of Al Qaeda's favorite target for terrorist attacks. If you understand the same as me, then this man is completely nuts.

Interesting? So how registered descendants of Jesus Christ do you think there are? Or is it just Mohammed descendants who are so organized.

(in reply to SpanishMatMaster)

Post #: 78

RE: Latest GOP-Libya gripe...you should have done it so... - 10/28/2011 5:35:58 AM

SpanishMatMaster

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Joined: 9/28/2011
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Dear FirstQuaker, I am sorry but I have no interest on following this conversation with you. If you insist, I will have to "hide" you. I prefer not to do it because I do not completely exclude that I may understand you correctly some day, in some other subject. But again, IMHO, your last message made absolutely no sense at all (registered offspring of Jesus? I mean... WTF!?!? "so organised"? as what? enough for some of them, a small minority, to inherit a title? is this "so organised"? we the Silva are organized because I inherited my family name? WTFF!? I do not understand a single point of this man!)

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 10/28/2011 5:40:59 AM >

_____________________________

Humanist (therefore Atheist), intelligent, cultivated and very humble :)
If I don't answer you, maybe I "hid" you: PM me if you want.
“Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, pause and reflect.” (Mark Twain)

(in reply to FirstQuaker)

Post #: 79

RE: Latest GOP-Libya gripe...you should have done it so... - 10/28/2011 5:42:59 AM

FirstQuaker

Posts: 787
Joined: 3/19/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

Notice the Muslim terrorists don't go after any of the royal families in the EU, ever wonder why only "white" terrorists attack those worthies? To a fundamentalist Muslim that would be like attacking one of Christ's offspring would be to a medieval European Christian.

More absurd nonsnese. I would have replied sooner but I have only just stopped laughing.

It makes discussing Prince Charles far more interesting, when you discover he is one of these Mohammed ancestored holy men.

'Follow the Islamic way to save the world,' Prince Charles urges environmentalists

Or

quote:

In October 1996, London's Evening Standard newspaper quoted the Grand Mufti of Cyprus, who claimed that the prince had converted to Islam. "It happened in Turkey. Oh, yes, he converted all right," the Grand Mufti was quoted as saying. "When you get home, check on how often he travels to Turkey. You'll find that your future king is a Muslim." This was one of several reports linking Prince Charles and Islam highlighted by authors Ronni L Gordon and David M Stillman in The Middle East Quarterly in 1997.

Prince Charles, defender of Islam

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 80

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