RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (Full Version)

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SternSkipper -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 10:40:17 PM)

quote:

I say arm them only with batons and their guns. Then, mess with them and you eat through a straw for a month....or you die. That's preferable to them trying to be non-lethal and having people complain about it.


I have an even better idea. HONOR THE 1st Amendment. So far the only criminal complaints filed against pretty much all of the protestors NATION WIDE are "unlawful assembly" convictions=ZERO, "criminal trespass" covictions= <100, And about 300 pleas down to civil trespass (because they could not be in jail any longer due to committments such as EMPLOYMENT ... Go figger).
   Not sure you really need a 'riot squad' for that.




tazzygirl -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 10:43:49 PM)

If you cant see.. why are you shooting?

Isnt that againt every shooting training course?

quote:

Hey, I can't totally disagree with you there. The cops should go old school. Every non-lethal alternative thing they try only gets picked at, bitched about and banned. I say arm them only with batons and their guns. Then, mess with them and you eat through a straw for a month....or you die. That's preferable to them trying to be non-lethal and having people complain about it.


Rubber bullets, bean bags and tear gas are not non lethal items. Deaths have been associated with all of them.




DarqueMirror -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 10:46:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper
I have an even better idea. HONOR THE 1st Amendment. So far the only criminal complaints filed against pretty much all of the protestors NATION WIDE are "unlawful assembly" convictions=ZERO, "criminal trespass" covictions= <100, And about 300 pleas down to civil trespass (because they could not be in jail any longer due to committments such as EMPLOYMENT ... Go figger).
   Not sure you really need a 'riot squad' for that.


I'll go one better. Let's make cops vanish from every protest area....totally gone. Free 1st amendment for everyone. Then, when the inevitable riot starts, keep them out, cordon off the area and just watch the whole place burn. Then, when people cry out for rescue, they can shrug and say "Dude....1st amendment.....they were being peaceful. I don't have any protection to go in and save you....sorry."




SternSkipper -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 10:49:59 PM)

quote:


If the law states you cannot shoot into a crowd.... but you do.. who is at fault?

Let me explain why I say "intent".

The test of intention


Tazzy ... you should look up the case of the BPD killing that girl at the world series celebration... not sure what you will find. But I was there that night and it was really fucked up. you may find some useful information concerning this type of case. If  I get a chance between my runs into the city to weather proof campers, i'll find you some stuff on it.
  I'm bushed though ... spent most of the day in court.
Night





DarqueMirror -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 10:50:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
If you cant see.. why are you shooting?


To get the canisters into the crowd where they are most effective so you aren't gassing your own people. Honestly, does it hurt to be this dense?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Isnt that againt every shooting training course?


For lethal rounds, yes. Arcing tear gas rounds are different.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Rubber bullets, bean bags and tear gas are not non lethal items. Deaths have been associated with all of them.


Exactly. So let's get rid of them and go back to wholesale ass beatings and real bullets. Why try things designed to incapacitate without harming? I say if they're breaking the law, fuck 'em up.




tazzygirl -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 10:52:37 PM)

quote:

To get the canisters into the crowd where they are most effective so you aren't gassing your own people. Honestly, does it hurt to be this dense?


Its not a dense question. If you cant see what is in your line of fire, you dont fire into a group of civilians.

quote:

For lethal rounds, yes. Arcing tear gas rounds are different.


Why would you consider something that has caused deaths to not be lethal?





SternSkipper -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 10:54:55 PM)

quote:

Free 1st amendment for everyone. Then, when the inevitable riot starts, keep them out, cordon off the area and just watch the whole place burn. Then, when people cry out for rescue, they can shrug and say "Dude....1st amendment.....they were being peaceful. I don't have any protection to go in and save you....sorry."


Ummm ...since it's been 30 days without the "inevitable riot"... whatchya suppose we should estimate as a reasonable period of time before you're little eve of destruction breaks out? Never mind, the answer'll methane rich anyway. Sell it to a fuel company.
I spent more time on this in real life today than you have in fantasy and I'm sleepy.
g'night if that's something you can do.





tazzygirl -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 10:58:32 PM)

quote:

Arcing tear gas rounds are different


lets go back to this. Are you implying that the round that hit the marine was arcing?




DarqueMirror -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 10:59:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Its not a dense question. If you cant see what is in your line of fire, you dont fire into a group of civilians.


Line of fire applies to weapons with a direct trajectory. Tear gas guns are very short-ranged. The only way to acheive the desired range is to arc it. When it's fired in an arc, you can't prepare for every possibility.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Why would you consider something that has caused deaths to not be lethal?


Because under normal circumstances it is non-lethal. BB guns can kill. But they aren't normally considered lethal weapons. Some use the term non-lethal, some have switched to using the term "less lethal." it's merely a question of semantics. It's the same weapon, whether it's called "less lethal" or "non-lethal" makes no difference. It does the same thing.

So are you agreeing with me? Get rid of everything but guns and batons? Wholesale ass beatings all around?




Hillwilliam -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 10:59:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror



Let me break it down for you, since I used to be in the public information office while in the military. It was part of my job to put out press releases and deal with the media. If a plane from my base crashed, we have what's known as the golden hour. Basically that means we have one hour to put out a release about the incident, even if it's only basic information. In that hour, there is nothing but chaos. I don't know the details of the crash any more than the average citizen because my need for detailed information for my press release does not trump protection of life, or containment of of potential hazards. So if someone asked if the plane was carrying the general, weapons, or a herd of goats, I wouldn't be able to say. When I started getting information, I'd release it. But even then the information may change moment to moment. It doesn't mean I lied if I said 4 people were on board one minute, then mention 4 more then next.

That's kinda like what we have here, I suspect. Some talking figurehead far from the action made a statement, then got pulled aside by someone with the correct info who said "Hey there, dude. We've been using gas and flashbangs for about 4 hours now. Where have you been?"

Now, if the most recent reports *still* had the same chucklehead claiming nothing was used, then you'd have a flat-out lie. But pointing to "early reports" as evidence of the untrustworthiness of the whole department is a bit disingenuous.



Nice try on the analogy but it doesnt work. Know why? A plane crash isn't planned. It is a totally novel, evolving situation that you have hopefully prepared for but not planned.
This raid WAS planned (Or are you going to try to tell me that they just up and decide "Hey, let's pull 3rd shift in and get those protestors off the square")

The personnel to be used was planned.
The equipment was planned and issued and, most importantly to the subject at hand, the munitions load out to be issued and USED was planned.
You don't issue something unless you plan for it to be used. This isn't a spur of the moment op. This was probably at least a couple of days in the making.
Someone knew well ahead of time that flashbangs, rubber bullets and teargas was going to be issued and presumably used and yet that spokesman sat up there and said they weren't.
That's a lot more culpability than a mistake surrounding the details of an unplanned disaster like a plane crash.

Remember your rule of P's
Proper Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance

The Oakland PD got is ass backwards.
Piss Poor Planning Prevented Proper Performance.

The only thing your plane crash scenario and this had in common is they were both disasters.

I'll give you credit for effort tho. You're still trying to protect and defend either incompetence or intent because evidence strongly suggests it was either one or the other.




DarqueMirror -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 11:00:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper
Ummm ...since it's been 30 days without the "inevitable riot"... whatchya suppose we should estimate as a reasonable period of time before you're little eve of destruction breaks out? Never mind, the answer'll methane rich anyway. Sell it to a fuel company.
I spent more time on this in real life today than you have in fantasy and I'm sleepy.
g'night if that's something you can do.


Oh I don't care about the time frame. I just want to watch it live on TV when it all burns down.




DarqueMirror -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 11:03:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Nice try on the analogy but it doesnt work. Know why? A plane crash isn't planned. It is a totally novel, evolving situation that you have hopefully prepared for but not planned.
This raid WAS planned (Or are you going to try to tell me that they just up and decide "Hey, let's pull 3rd shift in and get those protestors off the square")


Wrong again. (Gee this is fun)

The "dispersal" was planned. The rest happened when the cops met with resistance.




tazzygirl -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 11:09:53 PM)

According to the Mayor, she didnt know it was going down that night.




tazzygirl -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 11:11:42 PM)

quote:

So are you agreeing with me? Get rid of everything but guns and batons? Wholesale ass beatings all around?


Nope. Would it be fair to send cops in to beat up on someone who just happens to have a black belt?

Why does it have to end in violence? I would hope we have come up with better solutions.




Hillwilliam -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 11:12:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Nice try on the analogy but it doesnt work. Know why? A plane crash isn't planned. It is a totally novel, evolving situation that you have hopefully prepared for but not planned.
This raid WAS planned (Or are you going to try to tell me that they just up and decide "Hey, let's pull 3rd shift in and get those protestors off the square")


Wrong again. (Gee this is fun)

The "dispersal" was planned. The rest happened when the cops met with resistance.

Where am I wrong. All you showed was lack of preparedness and communication on the part of the OPD.
So they didn't plan for that?
Gee this is fun. Your argument was that the spokesman should be given the benefit of a doubt because he probably had no idea what was happening. Due to the fact that this disaster was planned, he knew or should have known.

Like I said. Piss Poor Planning Prevented Proper Performance and the brass giving the statement knew or should have known about the loadouts issued.

"Knew or should have known" Those 5 words can get a man convicted can they not?

Let me guess. Now you're going to claim you didn't say that and try once again that noone with a badge could have possibly done anything wrong because they have a badge.

You're living proof of my "Thin Blue Line" statement.

Do or say ANYTHING to protect a felow officer even if he is one of the ones that brings shame on the entire profession.

You're right. this is FUN.




DarqueMirror -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 11:23:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Nope. Would it be fair to send cops in to beat up on someone who just happens to have a black belt?


That's what the guns are for. Even Bruce Lee suggested a .45 would win against a martial arts master once.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Why does it have to end in violence? I would hope we have come up with better solutions.


As I've said before, mob mentality is a bitch.




tazzygirl -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 11:27:53 PM)

Question is... who was the mob in this situation. Btw, thought you might want to see this.

quote:

OAKLAND -- Scott Olsen, a 24-year-old Marine who served two tours of duty in Iraq, stood calmly in front of a police line as tear gas canisters that officers shot into the Occupy Oakland protest Tuesday night whizzed past his head.

"He was standing perfectly still, provoking no one," said Raleigh Latham, an Oakland filmmaker shooting footage of the confrontation between police and hundreds of protesters at 14th Street and Broadway. "If something didn't hit him directly in the face, then it went off close to his head and knocked him down."



Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/10/27/BAD61LN3LM.DTL#ixzz1c9KLnYmx

He was standing in front of the police. No arc due to being lost in the crowd could have caused that damage. The Drs said he took a direct hit, so the idea that something went off close to his face is out of play.

Im off to bed.

Dark, your arguments are losing their weight.

Good night.




DarqueMirror -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 11:27:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Where am I wrong. All you showed was lack of preparedness and communication on the part of the OPD.
So they didn't plan for that?
Gee this is fun. Your argument was that the spokesman should be given the benefit of a doubt because he probably had no idea what was happening. Due to the fact that this disaster was planned, he knew or should have known.


Even tazzy's links show the mayor didn't know. Is it really a stretch to think some scrub public information officer didn't have all the details?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Let me guess. Now you're going to claim you didn't say that and try once again that noone with a badge could have possibly done anything wrong because they have a badge.


Oh please post the quote where I said exactly those words. Pretty please. Take your time. You're going to need it.




DarqueMirror -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 11:34:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Question is... who was the mob in this situation. Btw, thought you might want to see this.

quote:

OAKLAND -- Scott Olsen, a 24-year-old Marine who served two tours of duty in Iraq, stood calmly in front of a police line as tear gas canisters that officers shot into the Occupy Oakland protest Tuesday night whizzed past his head.

"He was standing perfectly still, provoking no one," said Raleigh Latham, an Oakland filmmaker shooting footage of the confrontation between police and hundreds of protesters at 14th Street and Broadway. "If something didn't hit him directly in the face, then it went off close to his head and knocked him down."



Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/10/27/BAD61LN3LM.DTL#ixzz1c9KLnYmx

He was standing in front of the police. No arc due to being lost in the crowd could have caused that damage. The Drs said he took a direct hit, so the idea that something went off close to his face is out of play.


Ohhhhh I love those quotes. Let's look closely, shall we?

quote:

OAKLAND -- Scott Olsen, a 24-year-old Marine who served two tours of duty in Iraq, stood calmly in front of a police line as tear gas canisters that officers shot into the Occupy Oakland protest Tuesday night whizzed past his head.


Bullshit. Things are being shot at him and he stands there like an idiot? Bullshit. I don't care how many times you've been overseas. When you're shot at, you get the hell down.

quote:

...said Raleigh Latham, an Oakland filmmaker shooting footage ...


Where's the footage? Hmmmm....... Very curious.

quote:

"If something didn't hit him directly in the face, then it went off close to his head and knocked him down."


So even the so-called witness, who was supposedly shooting VIDEO of the incident can't say if they guy was hit directly? Very VERY curious.

His credibility just went right out the window.




Hillwilliam -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 11:44:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Where am I wrong. All you showed was lack of preparedness and communication on the part of the OPD.
So they didn't plan for that?
Gee this is fun. Your argument was that the spokesman should be given the benefit of a doubt because he probably had no idea what was happening. Due to the fact that this disaster was planned, he knew or should have known.


Even tazzy's links show the mayor didn't know. Is it really a stretch to think some scrub public information officer didn't have all the details?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Let me guess. Now you're going to claim you didn't say that and try once again that noone with a badge could have possibly done anything wrong because they have a badge.


Oh please post the quote where I said exactly those words. Pretty please. Take your time. You're going to need it.

I never claimed the mayor knew but someone high in the department knew and they allowed lies to be told.

As for your unrelenting defense of anyting with a badge, your actions speak louder than words.

You REFUSE to think that a policeman could have fucked up either intentionally or accidentally.

Heres a nice one that is happening this week.

http://gothamist.com/2011/10/28/hundreds_of_cops_gather_in_support.php

16 officers, 1500 criminal charges and what are hundreds of their coworkers doing?

They're calling the prosecuters "cowards" and "Pieces of shit".

Are you proud of that solidarity? or are you disgusted?
Who disgusts you? The accused criminals? The ones supporting them? The prosecuters?




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