RE: Obamas New 'Christma Tree Tax'

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Obamas New 'Christma Tree Tax'

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Obamas New 'Christma Tree Tax'

Page: << < prev 2 3 4 [5] 6 next > >>

Login

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Obamas New 'Christma Tree Tax' - 11/11/2011 12:36:44 AM

MaidlyVirtue

Posts: 6
Joined: 10/18/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

In effect, what the "industry" is doing is charging higher prices, and letting the government enforce their pricing, absorbing the cost in collection and distribution and giving a legal weapon of tax evasion against any recalcitrant tree seller who doesn't believe they should have to pay into the "fund".

This is not accurate at all. The Christmas Tree industry is paying the federal government to conduct an advertising and research campaign. The cost of trees is not going up because of this program. Previous programs have already proven to be profitable for the participants, so there is little reason -not- to participate in it.

quote:

Since all the money collected appears to go to the private organization, then the cost for all of this is absorbed by other taxpayers.

This is also not accurate. The only money spent on this program is the fifteen cent fee per tree that the farms pay. No outside tax money filters into this program, nor do any of the fees filter back into the tax base.

quote:

It's extortion, it theft, and it's advantaging some companies at the expense of other companies, and supported by other taxes.

That's a hell of a service, there.

Nothing is being extorted, nothing is being stolen, and not a single tax dollar is spent on this program. Granted, it does advantage tree farms over the manufacturers of artificial trees (and Festivus polls), but I don't see that being a salient point. After all, the fake tree industry could ask the government for a similar program, or simply advertise on their own.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 81

RE: Obamas New 'Christma Tree Tax' - 11/11/2011 7:35:40 AM

mnottertail

Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I've never claimed to be "non-partisan". But I don't think you'll find that I use the same type of denigrating and insulting terminology when I disagree, as you do.

There seems to be a real reservoir of negativity there, Ron. Past what might allow a more reasoned analysis of the causes and effects of our current difficulties.

Firm

Yeah, I just do that to fuck with Sanity and the others of his ilk, a large part of the 'republican' contingent.

'Right reasoned' republicans are hard to find. Your well of negativity draws just as deep as mine.

It just so happens that the majority of the principles I believe will lead to a more sane and healthy society are putatively espoused by the Democratic Party, rather than the Republican Party (at this time). But I'm not particularly enthused about the Democratic Party itself.

The situation is that these principles are; as you say, 'putatively espoused' and not in actuality adhered to and championed.

Now you come up with some disingenuous dig and will feign innocence.

It seems to me that partisans on the left would blame the partisans on the rights behaviors on such as Adolf Hitler and Karl Rove and other such people of disrepute. (said in the same feigned innocence you did).

Liberals in their meetings utter bold words; they strut, grimace belligerently, and then issue a weasel-worded statement 'which has tremendous implications, if read between the lines.' They sit calmly, dispassionately, studying the issue; judging both sides; they sit and still sit. (Alinsky 1971)

Mr Alinsky was a Radical Socialist and as such was the bane of both of our political machines, much as the OWS is attempting to be.

Your propaganda and slanders are part and parcel of your makeup and principles. That is why it won't soon change.

The trouble, the whole trouble, the entirety of the trouble is that I can live in a world of 'CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS' and in a world of 'SOCIO-DEMOCRATIC' government; and whatever party that entails (notice I said nothing about LIBERAL DEMOCRATS) and those working together to find a middle path thru our world, with our AMERICAN long term interests at heart.

We have none of that.

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 82

RE: Obamas New 'Christma Tree Tax' - 11/11/2011 6:26:11 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

"Since when it is ok for an industry to get it's friends in government to pass a tax, and then pass it back along to them (the industry) in order to fund their own advertisement, marketing and research?"

^ That is the crux of the matter. But REALLY I thought this was a fucking joke. This whole thing belongs in Pam's "Absurd" thread.

T^T

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 83

RE: Obamas New 'Christma Tree Tax' - 11/11/2011 6:40:27 PM

BanthaSamantha

Posts: 261
Joined: 8/7/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"Since when it is ok for an industry to get it's friends in government to pass a tax, and then pass it back along to them (the industry) in order to fund their own advertisement, marketing and research?"

^ That is the crux of the matter. But REALLY I thought this was a fucking joke. This whole thing belongs in Pam's "Absurd" thread.

T^T

This situation isn't a "tax and kickback" situation any more than paying for a postage stamp is a tax and getting your letter delivered is a government kickback.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 84

RE: Obamas New 'Christma Tree Tax' - 11/11/2011 6:42:13 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

"Who gives a fuck whether the tree industry "requested" it or not. The government, whether it be the Obama administration, the Bush administration or the coming Romney adminstration HAVE NO FUCKING BUSINESS REGULATING, TAXING, OR SOCIAL ENGINEERING THIS SHIT. "

Yeah, and remember that also means alcohol, tobacco and firearms as well as personal income and all that shit. Also means they have no right to ask me to get a permit to build a house or anything, or anything at all. Their functuion is to provide national (NO INTERNATIONAL) defense and infrastructure.

Now THAT'S conservative, I have no fucking idea what all this other shit is anyone is talking about.

And defense means nationalising commodities essential to the security of the country, that means bye bye BP and everyone. Taxpayers own that fucking oil. Our boys fought for some of it and now some of it is going to come out of the fucking ground in the Dakotas etc. Whio gets the money for that ? Why do THEY get the fucking money for that ?

Fuck them, get guns and shut these motherfuckers down, ASAP. Before they steal more.

T^T

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 85

RE: Obamas New 'Christma Tree Tax' - 11/11/2011 6:47:57 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

"Perhaps you did not get the memo.
1789 u.s. constitution empowers congress to tax. "

Yes, to execute the actual duty of the fucking government. This is not within that scope. Also note that they are not doing what they are supposed to be doing either.

Note that a tax revolt is a peaceful attempt at redress of our greivances. It will not work, there will be blood. I'm just wondering if it will happen in my lifetime.

T^T

(in reply to thompsonx)

Post #: 86

RE: Obamas New 'Christma Tree Tax' - 11/11/2011 7:06:06 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

"This is simply the tree industry purchasing a service from the government, much like you do whenever you purchase a stamp and mail a letter. "

Incorrect. When you mail a letter you have a choice to not send it. You have a choice to use UPS instead. (not the complete argument, read on, but this is not a service for us, so why should we pay?)

I would support an industrywide organisation to voluntarily enact "dues" in a way with voluntary membership. They could then promote their business and display a plaque of sorts, being a proud member of The Christmas Tree Organisation. But this forces ALL suppliers to get into this club and without any input. You have input on how yor tax dollars are spent ?

This is clearly taxation without representation which is one of the fundamental issues which brought this country into existence in the first place. It is not the same as purchasing a postage stamp, not by a longshot.

And let me mention this. There is no such thing as a Christmas tree, you could have a spruce or pine or whatever, what defines it as a Christmas tree ? Are Yule tees exempt ? This is religious based. This is wholly unconstitutional on it's face to start with but this issue trumps it. If I want to put up a tree to celebrate the Odinist holiday of the winter solistace, do I have to pay ?

Enough reality for you for now. You see issues through your own lens, and I am not going to describe that right now. Your opinion is actually pretty much in the majority these days, that someone can decide that there are good taxes and bad taxes. This is not true. You think that a tax on cigarettes is good but a tax on gasoline is bad because you have been trained to think that way. I can't use the word "taught" in that context.

Please realize that I do not mean you personally and specifically here, I mean people in general. You think the government knows best and determines what is right or wrong, nothing could be farther from the truth in reality.

T^T

(in reply to MaidlyVirtue)

Post #: 87

RE: Obamas New 'Christma Tree Tax' - 11/11/2011 7:11:42 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

"It's extortion, it theft, and it's advantaging some companies at the expense of other companies, and supported by other taxes. "

I agree 163.65 %

T^T

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 88

RE: Obamas New 'Christma Tree Tax' - 11/11/2011 7:14:49 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

"This is not accurate at all. The Christmas Tree industry is paying the federal government to conduct an advertising and research campaign."

I got ONE QUESTION.

Is it voluntary or not ?

That is the crux of the matter right there.

T^T

(in reply to MaidlyVirtue)

Post #: 89

RE: Obamas New 'Christma Tree Tax' - 11/11/2011 7:26:39 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

"This situation isn't a "tax and kickback" situation any more than paying for a postage stamp is a tax and getting your letter delivered is a government kickback. "

Bullshit, if I am a Christmas tree grower and I choose not to participate, can I do that ? If not it is actually not only unconstitutional but unlawful. If you don't understand that you have a hell of alot to learn about this country and how it is supposed to be. Shit like this is based on the same fucked up beliefs that got our economy all fucked up. That it is OK to bribe the government. If it's OK for the Cristmas Tree Industry then it is OK for the banks. Are you happy with that outcome ? This shit has to fucking STOP.

Please stay out of politics, we have enough people who think this fucked up way already. Firm is 200% right. This is WRONG.

Maybe some don't want into such an organisation, if forced it's worse than a "mafia" protection racket.

T^T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 11/11/2011 7:28:20 PM >

(in reply to BanthaSamantha)

Post #: 90

RE: Obamas New 'Christma Tree Tax' - 11/11/2011 7:35:35 PM

BanthaSamantha

Posts: 261
Joined: 8/7/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I got ONE QUESTION.

Is it voluntary or not ?

That is the crux of the matter right there.

I fail to understand how everything revolves around whether the program is voluntary. Instead of beating around the bush, how about you simply elucidate your point.

But to answer your question, the Christmas Tree industry volunteered to participate in this program. If they don't like it, they are free to vote to end the program any time they like.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Incorrect. When you mail a letter you have a choice to not send it. You have a choice to use UPS instead. (not the complete argument, read on, but this is not a service for us, so why should we pay?)

I would support an industrywide organisation to voluntarily enact "dues" in a way with voluntary membership. They could then promote their business and display a plaque of sorts, being a proud member of The Christmas Tree Organisation. But this forces ALL suppliers to get into this club and without any input. You have input on how yor tax dollars are spent ?

What you are doing here is vastly misconstruing the workings and development of the program. When you claim this forces Tree suppliers to get with the program, you are incorrect. They can vote to end the program. Likewise, when you claim that this was done without any input, you are mistaken. This program was submitted by the industry itself, and had an extensive input and feedback period which shaped the resulting program. Lastly, I want to stress one last time that this is not a tax.

I would highly advise you to actually read the regulation, as a lot of your issues would be allayed by simply perusing its contents. A lot of your problems with it stem from ignorance as to what's actually in the reg.

Lastly, why do we pay? We're not tree farmers. And since the benefits of the program vastly outweigh the cost, there is no reason to suspect it would increase the cost of Christmas trees.

quote:

This is clearly taxation without representation which is one of the fundamental issues which brought this country into existence in the first place. It is not the same as purchasing a postage stamp, not by a longshot.

A popularly elected Congress gave the USDA the power to promulgate this regulation. If you don't like this program, you are free to vote for legislators and executives whom will repeal that authority. That is the very definition of taxation -with- representation.

quote:

And let me mention this. There is no such thing as a Christmas tree, you could have a spruce or pine or whatever, what defines it as a Christmas tree ? Are Yule tees exempt ? This is religious based. This is wholly unconstitutional on it's face to start with but this issue trumps it. If I want to put up a tree to celebrate the Odinist holiday of the winter solistace, do I have to pay ?

You might want to bone up on your constutitional law. This program is nowhere near the outer edges of the Free Exercise clause.

Lastly, I just wanted to stress something. I think you are under the mistaken impression that it is you that pays the 15 cent fee when you purchase a tree. Such is not the case. It is the tree farm that pays the fee. And that makes sense, as the tree farm is the entity that is benefitting from the program.

< Message edited by BanthaSamantha -- 11/11/2011 7:39:26 PM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 91

RE: Obamas New 'Christma Tree Tax' - 11/11/2011 7:38:50 PM

BanthaSamantha

Posts: 261
Joined: 8/7/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Bullshit, if I am a Christmas tree grower and I choose not to participate, can I do that ? If not it is actually not only unconstitutional but unlawful. If you don't understand that you have a hell of alot to learn about this country and how it is supposed to be.

Please post a link to the relevant statute and Constitutional provision that makes this action illegal/unconstitutional.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 92

RE: Obamas New 'Christma Tree Tax' - 11/11/2011 7:45:44 PM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

BS,

1. Does the money flow through a government controlled structure?

2. Does the government account for the money and show the transfers in their accounting programs?

3. Is the full amount that is collected, then remitted to the industry?

4. What is the process to get the "regulatory levy" eliminated?

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to BanthaSamantha)

Post #: 93

RE: Obamas New 'Christma Tree Tax' - 11/11/2011 7:57:28 PM

BanthaSamantha

Posts: 261
Joined: 8/7/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

BS,

1. Does the money flow through a government controlled structure?

2. Does the government account for the money and show the transfers in their accounting programs?

3. Is the full amount that is collected, then remitted to the industry?

4. What is the process to get the "regulatory levy" eliminated?

Firm

1. The USDA collects the funds from the tre farm industry
2. I am sure there is a legally sufficient bookkeeping that accounts for all of the funds, but I am not positive as to what you are asking.
3. The full amount collected is spent on advertisements, research, and information gathering, all for the benefit of the tree farm industry.
4. There are two ways to end the program. One is for a majority of the tree farms to vote to end it after three years. The second method can be done at any time; it involves thirty percent of the farms sending in a petition for an early vote.

I posted the link to the full text of the regulation on an earlier page in the thread. Feel free to go check it out.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

Post #: 94

RE: Obamas New 'Christma Tree Tax' - 11/11/2011 8:34:25 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

"Please post a link to the relevant statute and Constitutional provision that makes this action illegal/unconstitutional."

Powers not specifically conferred to the federal government are reserved to the States or the People. That is not an exact quote becasue if you have any familiarity with the document you know that this means that the power of the federal government is provided solely by the Constitution. The only valid law of the US is that which specifically enforces the Constitution.

In other words for the federal government to do something outside it's Constitutionally imposed limits is unlawful. That doesn't mean they go to jail, but it does mean that Marbury v Madison makes quite a bit of their tripe null and void.

A general income tax is actually authorized by the Constitution, but with no real specifics. Tariffs also seem to be a legitimate method for a government to raise revenue, especially when traffic does take it's toll.

You want more ? This whole centralisation of power is bullshit. For example, the federal highway system should never have come into existence. The federal government should have set nationwide standards as they should, like for schools and how much ethanol the goniff oil companies put in your gasoline, big scale shit like that. Of course they fall on their face trying to do that anyway.

But the founding Fathers actually foresaw this. The Constitution was written to prevent it I guess - "if you can keep it". The roads need to be standardized, cars and trucks will be between this big and that big, the lanes will be this wide. The highways meet at the state lines. The states should have handled this. And then the feds decide the whole country has to slow down to lil old Lady speed of 55, not taking into consideration the diversity of the earthscape out there. But what do you expect from a bunch of fucking idiots ?

Hell we can put a special tax on shampoo and pay for advertising to sell more of our brand. A special tax on anything at all. Cool huh ? Just make sure the tax isn't on anything YOU like. Oh wait, you don't get to decide that unless you got one hell of a slush fund.

The people with the larger scale of operations deal in larger amounts of money, and can outbid the little guy in competition for politicians. The general effect on the business environment is that big business now has an unfair advantage and it is reaching critical mass.

I thought such a thing was bad, but I've now realized that it is not. All this shit will just kill the currency and after a decade we can lop off a couple of zeros and be just as good as any other country again.

You now what they should tax ! ? Phillips screwdrivers ! Toilet seats, goddamn, try to boycott that ! And all that money sponsors TV commercials, billboards, banners on the internet. A win win if I ever did see.

But now, fifteen measely cents. Man they're getting twenty or forty bucks for these trees.

I want five bucks now.

People, get this through your fucking heads :

IF I HAVE THE POWER TO TAX YOU ONE PENNY I HAVE THE POWER TO TAX YOU A HUNDRED DOLLARS, FOR A BREATH OF AIR ! DO YOU UNDERSTAND ? Give then an inch and they take a mile. The income tax was fucking "temporary", they ain't even bullshitting about that this time becasue the sheep will lie down and graze while they get sheared and won't even get pet a little bit.

Wake up.

T^T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 11/11/2011 8:44:47 PM >

(in reply to BanthaSamantha)

Post #: 95

RE: Obamas New 'Christma Tree Tax' - 11/11/2011 8:45:08 PM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

Perhaps a little more verbose and rant-like than I'd say it, but basically Termie is on-target.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 96

RE: Obamas New 'Christma Tree Tax' - 11/11/2011 8:50:04 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

"4. There are two ways to end the program. One is for a majority of the tree farms to vote to end it after three years."

I am selling trees this year. I am not remitting the money, I am not signing anything. They are not going to do a fucking thing to me.

That's that. If they come for me I get to live for free. That's it.

This is amazing, do you take up a vote on what color to paint your house ?

T^T

(in reply to BanthaSamantha)

Post #: 97

RE: Obamas New 'Christma Tree Tax' - 11/11/2011 8:50:22 PM

FirmhandKY

Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BanthaSamantha

I posted the link to the full text of the regulation on an earlier page in the thread. Feel free to go check it out.

BS,

Thanks for the info and the link (I went back and looked it up).

Welcome to the cellar of the forums, btw. Don't take me as being too offensive. I do like to dig in the detailed crap as I have time and opportunity, and I'm already reviewing the regulation.

I kinda do a lot of that, in my "real life": Read, interpret, criticize and explain Federal Regulations, I mean.

I'm not sure you'll life what I post once I'm done, based on what I've already read.

But you also have a grace period, as I'll be away from the computer most of tomorrow, and may not have time to complete the analysis and write it up as how it relates to all of my earlier comments once I get back, for several days.

Firm

_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to BanthaSamantha)

Post #: 98

RE: Obamas New 'Christma Tree Tax' - 11/11/2011 8:52:20 PM

BanthaSamantha

Posts: 261
Joined: 8/7/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Powers not specifically conferred to the federal government are reserve to the States or the People. That is not an exact quote becasue if you have any familiarity with the document you know that this means that the power of the federal government is provided solely by the Constitution. The only valid law of the US is that which specifically enforces the Constitution.

In other words for the federal government to do something outside it's Constitutionally imposed limits is unlawful. That doesn't mean they go to jail, but it does mean that Marbury v Madison makes quite a bit of their trype null and void.

"The Congress shall have Power - To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer there of."

"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence[note 1] and general Welfare of the United States"

These two clauses of the Constitution are what give the federal government the authority to enact this regulation.

Now, instead of making a vague appeal to federalism, could you please cite the statute and constitutional provision that make this illegal and unconstitutional.

quote:

I like to cuss a lot!

You're angry, and understandably so. But you're letting your excited emotional state cloud the part of your brain that uses evidence to reach conclusions.

quote:

IF I HAVE THE POWER TO TAX YOU ONE PENNY I HAVE THE POWER TO TAX YOU A HUNDRED DOLLARS, FOR A BREATH OF AIR ! DO YOU UNDERSTAND ? Give then an inch and they take a mile. The income tax was fucking "temporary", they ain't even bullshitting about that this time becasue you sheeop will lie down and graze while they shear you and won't even pet you a little bit.

I'll say it one more time because you didn't read it in my previous post: you and I don't pay a single red cent into this fund. The only people who pay into this fund are those that run tree farms.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 99

RE: Obamas New 'Christma Tree Tax' - 11/11/2011 8:55:21 PM

BanthaSamantha

Posts: 261
Joined: 8/7/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"4. There are two ways to end the program. One is for a majority of the tree farms to vote to end it after three years."

I am selling trees this year. I am not remitting the money, I am not signing anything. They are not going to do a fucking thing to me.

That's that. If they come for me I get to live for free. That's it.

This is amazing, do you take up a vote on what color to paint your house ?

T^T

You can't simply pretend that the Commerce Clause has been erased from the Constitution. You sound to me like you're one of those liberal folks whom is always wishing to change the Constitution in order to do whatever you want.

< Message edited by BanthaSamantha -- 11/11/2011 9:01:09 PM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 100

Page: << < prev 2 3 4 [5] 6 next > >>

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Obamas New 'Christma Tree Tax'

Page: << < prev 2 3 4 [5] 6 next > >>

Jump to:

New Messages	No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages	Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages	Locked w/o New Messages

Post New Thread

Reply to Message

Post New Poll

Submit Vote

Delete My Own Post

Delete My Own Thread

Rate Posts

Collarchat.com © 2025

Terms of Service

0.094