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ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

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****NocturnalStalker. Really if you have a problem with transgendered people, why not choose to be neutral rather than offensive by "calling it the way you see it"? If someone called you a "fag" because you have long hair and they see guys with long hair as homosexuals, how would it make you feel? And more important would it be fair?

Because I've chosen to be offensive since it is wrong thinking.  There are many sexual abnormalities that are wrong and though you may have bought into being a mindless sheep that thinks they are defending the weak all you're doing is hurting them more by enabling them to justify their sketchy stories and actions.  Society should work to make the transsexual types be at peace with their original selves, not telling them that it is "okay" to go and change themselves overnight.  It's like saying, "You're right, you are a shitty guy.  Go grab some dice and roll a female instead." 

Because even if society does say to, "Do whatever you want" there's omission that once you do go through that you'll be ridiculed and looked at as a freak. 

And sorry but it doesn't add up that you're more inclined to kill yourself *before* the transformation as opposed to after it.  Especially if it is poorly done and makes you look terrible as most often do.  Logic tells me that they would be more susceptible to suicide when they realize that the average person won't tolerate them beyond casual friendship or civility.  Before the operation they're just guys or girls with psychological problems.  After the operation they're girls or guys with psychological problems and now widespread social issues. 

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How many operation results have you actually seen....up close and personal

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Your facts are wrong. Your logic is flawed.  You're full of it.

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And before you go accusing others here of having widespread social issues, I suggest you take a good, long look in the mirror (which I'm sure you do for hours on end anyway, seeing the love affair you seem to have with yourself).

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I love reading Otters and Stella's posts-

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ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

Because I've chosen to be offensive since it is wrong thinking.  There are many sexual abnormalities that are wrong and though you may have bought into being a mindless sheep that thinks they are defending the weak all you're doing is hurting them more by enabling them to justify their sketchy stories and actions.  Society should work to make the transsexual types be at peace with their original selves, not telling them that it is "okay" to go and change themselves overnight.  It's like saying, "You're right, you are a shitty guy.  Go grab some dice and roll a female instead." 

Because even if society does say to, "Do whatever you want" there's omission that once you do go through that you'll be ridiculed and looked at as a freak. 

And sorry but it doesn't add up that you're more inclined to kill yourself *before* the transformation as opposed to after it.  Especially if it is poorly done and makes you look terrible as most often do.  Logic tells me that they would be more susceptible to suicide when they realize that the average person won't tolerate them beyond casual friendship or civility.  Before the operation they're just guys or girls with psychological problems.  After the operation they're girls or guys with psychological problems and now widespread social issues. 

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Who is to determine right from wrong? Certainly you are not the authority

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"Sketchy stories and actions" .....Please clarify this.

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That's a load of  BS. You are obviously uneducated about transgender issues and the transgender population. Though the transgender population has a unique set of obstacles to overcome, "the average person won't tolerate them beyond casual friendship or civility" is a load of crap.

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ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

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How many operation results have you actually seen....up close and personal

Through living in the city of Toronto, travelling around North America and spending time in places such as California and New York I'd say that I have seen enough to know that a lot of the people that perform the operation should be sued for making many of you look so eldritch.  If every transsexual person looked as "good" as some posters have linked pictures to, then there wouldn't be such glaring insults related to them.  Sadly, a few does not make up for a thousand.  When people think "transsexual" they think a person of a particular gender that really does not belong.  Why do they?  Because that is the image many of you portray unknowingly. 

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Your facts are wrong. Your logic is flawed.  You're full of it.

Excellent points!  Oh wait...

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And before you go accusing others here of having widespread social issues, I suggest you take a good, long look in the mirror (which I'm sure you do for hours on end anyway, seeing the love affair you seem to have with yourself).

At least I can look in the mirror.  Cheap shot me again, please.

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TG-ness is not a sexual thing.

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It's when the brain and body are different genders.

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Um, it DOES in fact add up that the suicidal impulses are lessened by the transition

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ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

Male that wants to be female is not at all a sex-related thing.  What?

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It's when the brain and body are different genders.

And you make this claim on something that needs to have more research done scientifically, are you not?

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What I am tackling if you bothered to pay any attention at all is the social backlash a TG person experiences.  What they think or believe is something I will never know because I am not nor ever will be in that frame of mind.  I will wager a guess and say that many do not actually see themselves as having an issue and will thus, never admit to it period.  The problem is that there is not a large enough issue being made of it due to the amount of work it would likely take to actually create a breakthrough for any changes in behaviour.  How can you help those that do not want to be helped? 

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To go by the quoted text though, their mind is supposedly telling them they are not what their mirror depicts.  Minds can tell people there is another person in their head, they look too fat when they are actually 80 lbs, and crowds of people will give them heart attacks.  If there is a desynch between brain and body then there should be steps to rectify this problem rather than indulge on it. 

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Um, it DOES in fact add up that the suicidal impulses are lessened by the transition

Which is then dismantled when they find themselves unable to form relationships of significance with most normal people.  Humans are social creatures and when shunned by the majority, loneliness begins and depression follows soon after.  Look at the TGs attacking my opinion here: they are undoubtedly hurt and offended by my admitted intolerance to form a friendship of any sort with one of them.  I am not the first, and will not be the last.

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Exactly.  It's not who they're attracted to, it's what gender they want to become.

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I dunno.  I'm just passing along what I've read and heard TGs say.  I'm not sure what more research would prove.

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You don't get it.  You see a person who looks like their born gender and assume they're happy and have loads of friends.  And then they transition and have no friends and are miserable.

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It's a horrible, nasty process, and nobody would do it unless they were REALLY unhappy otherwise.

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And you are considering transitioning to be indulging a problem, rather than rectifying it.  The TGs themselves would consider transitioning to BE rectification

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You're making up your facts.  The few TGs I have known, universally say that they were miserable or suicidal prior, and much happier now.  And feel free to explain to my sub that she will never form a lasting relationship, and she will laugh at you.  I know a few other TGs who have relationships, and some who do not.

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ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

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Exactly.  It's not who they're attracted to, it's what gender they want to become.

Which is... sex. 

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You're making up your facts.  The few TGs I have known, universally say that they were miserable or suicidal prior, and much happier now.  And feel free to explain to my sub that she will never form a lasting relationship, and she will laugh at you.  I know a few other TGs who have relationships, and some who do not.

First off, you cannot say, "universally" because again, a few does not speak for all. 

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ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

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****NocturnalStalker. Really if you have a problem with transgendered people, why not choose to be neutral rather than offensive by "calling it the way you see it"? If someone called you a "fag" because you have long hair and they see guys with long hair as homosexuals, how would it make you feel? And more important would it be fair?

Because I've chosen to be offensive since it is wrong thinking.  There are many sexual abnormalities that are wrong and though you may have bought into being a mindless sheep that thinks they are defending the weak all you're doing is hurting them more by enabling them to justify their sketchy stories and actions. 

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Are you aware that "Gender" and "Sex" are often used with two very distinct meanings? Sex relating to genetics, gender to self-perception?

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Your English comprehension is flawed. The claim wasn't "all TGs universally say" it was "the few TGs I have known, universally say"

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Where do you stand on homosexuality - Is this a "sexual abnormality"?

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ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

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Are you aware that "Gender" and "Sex" are often used with two very distinct meanings? Sex relating to genetics, gender to self-perception?

From your friend and mine, the Dictionary:

"
2. sex: the feminine gender."

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Your English comprehension is flawed. The claim wasn't "all TGs universally say" it was "the few TGs I have known, universally say"

And when you say, "universally" you are speaking for all TGs everywhere.  Universal means...
"1. of, pertaining to, or characteristic of all or the whole: universal experience. 2. applicable everywhere or in all cases; general: a universal cure. 3. affecting, concerning, or involving all: universal military service. 4. used or understood by all: a universal language. 5. present everywhere: the universal calm of southern seas."

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Where do you stand on homosexuality - Is this a "sexual abnormality"?

Well gee Crazyml, let me wonder if two guys or girls having sex with one another deviates from the standard that is heterosexual.

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Let me try to help you clear up your confusion.

Jane has ten apples, each of the ten apples is a red apple. All of Jane's apples are red. That isn't to say that all apples are red, but that all of Jane's apples are red.

Janes apples are universally red. But that isn't suggesting for a moment that all apples are universally red.

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So is it your position that homosexuality is a mental illness?

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Your brain is telling you that you feel like a female?  My brain tells me I should be king of the world.  I'm not though, and despite the surgery done, you're a guy still.  Only now you're a guy who made himself look like a girl. 

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ORIGINAL: NocturnalStalker

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Let me try to help you clear up your confusion.

Jane has ten apples, each of the ten apples is a red apple. All of Jane's apples are red. That isn't to say that all apples are red, but that all of Jane's apples are red.

Janes apples are universally red. But that isn't suggesting for a moment that all apples are universally red.

I think it is you that is confused.  When you use the term, "universal" you are applying it to everything related to what you're applying "universal" to.  What DarkSteven was saying was this...

My transgendered friend was sad as a man.
My transgendered friend was happier after surgery to become a female.
All transsexuals are happy after surgery. 

This was all due to tossing in the word, "universally."  He was going on about myself "making up facts" too.  What a shame.

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" The few TGs I have known, universally say that they were miserable or suicidal prior, and much happier now. "

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My transgendered friend was sad as a man.
My transgendered friend was happier after surgery to become a female.
All transsexuals are happy after surgery. 

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The few TGs I have known, universally say that they were miserable or suicidal prior, and much happier now.

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So is it your position that homosexuality is a mental illness?

It is in my belief that homosexuality is abnormal. 

Now are you going to attack the argument I presented or are you going to attempt and play semantics some more? 

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So is it your position that homosexuality is a mental illness?

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Your brain is telling you that you feel like a female?  My brain tells me I should be king of the world.  I'm not though, and despite the surgery done, you're a guy still.  Only now you're a guy who made himself look like a girl. 

This is my very first post in the thread that clearly shows the understanding of gender identity/genetic sex.  You're trying to find holes that have already been filled.