RE: ideas for christian humiliation

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Ishtarr -> RE: ideas for christian humiliation (11/21/2011 11:49:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009 quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr I agree with this. Most of the suggestions made on this thread, so far, involve forcing others to participate in a person's kink. But that's the very nature of humiliation play. It's not very humiliating if only the two participants see it. For example, most people who practice "forced feminization" do so by making the male go out in public in female garments or behaving in ways that would be viewed as female. I understand that, I have no issues with that. I'm just noticing that in EVERY other situation where an OP comes with a question that comes down to: "how do I non-consensually involve people in my kink?" this forum has a fit. Yet now that the non-consensual part deals with religion, it's suddenly okay. It's that hypocrisy I'm having an issue with. I'm not a religious person, I don't even care about being disrespectful to religious symbols to get your rocks off. Hell, he could fuck her with a crucifix and I wouldn't give a damn. quote: ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009 I understand that religion is a touchy subject. But some of you seem to be forgetting the very nature of humiliation play. I don't care about the subject of religion, I care about the fact that non-consensual kink is apparently ONLY okay when it involves religion, while at the same time, it's a huge no-no for everything else. quote: ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009 Forget about your personal feelings on the ethics of the OP's kink. How would YOU recommend they exercise that kink without exposing anyone else to it? I don't think his slave would feel humiliated if she just had to do it in front of him. And obviously, humiliation is their kink. See the problem? My personal ethics state that humiliating another person by swarming them with Jesus stuff is out of line. I don't care if it's done because of kink or faith. Many of the examples given on this thread would have been offensive to me even if done by a religious person. There where many examples you gave that aren't intruding into other people's lives, like praying before eating, carrying a Bible or wearing a religious T-shirt. However, actively forcing others to partake by approaching them with questions and statements that the bystander very well may find humiliating, inconvenient, or annoying is just out of line. I don't appreciate being forced to partake in what ever gets other people's rocks off. And I certainly don't appreciate somebody making overt judgmental gestures based on what I'm wearing. When I'm shopping, I wouldn't appreciate a Christian bullying me with the question of whether I'm saved any more than I would appreciate a kinkster doing the same, any more than I would appreciate being asked "do you like being tied up" in a supermarket.

Rochsub2009 -> RE: ideas for christian humiliation (11/21/2011 11:53:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Again, if the OP wanted to play with Jewish humiliation, would you suggest she wear a yellow Star of David with "Juden" printed boldly on the front, or would that be in poor taste to do in public? But once again, you're taking it much further than any of the suggestions made here. I have never seen anyone wearing a shirt that said "Juden" on it. But I DO see those "WWJD?" shirts. To me, a more analogous example would be to make her wear a star of David around her neck. Or to wear a yarmulke (sp?) out in public during Passover. That would be very normal behavior for some Jewish people, so it would become virtually invisible. But the OP's slave would feel humiliated. To me, the line would be in doing things that immediately stand out from the norm, or that insult the religion (like making her wear a shirt with a Star of David on one side, and a swastika on the other). Everyone would immediately notice that, and it would be offensive to most people. But the other examples likely wouldn't be noticed at all (IMO). To me, that is the key to good humiliation play. The person being humiliated feels bad, but those who are nearby are actually unaware of what's going on, or simply don't care. Human beings have an over-inflated sense of their own importance. Many times, a person feels humiliated because they think all eyes are on them. But the reality is that most people aren't even paying attention to them. And a good Dom/Domme should be able to formulate a scene that give their sub the humiliation they crave, and yet doesn't really impact the innocent bystanders. It may take a little creative thinking, but it can be done. And it doesn't have to happen exclusively in a BDSM dungeon.

lizi -> RE: ideas for christian humiliation (11/21/2011 11:55:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse I think it is because we (some of we anyway), regardless of individual views now, see religioun as something sacred. Even if we don't THINK we believe in it, there is that underlying, maybe even subconscious, fear that if we desecrate religioun we might go to hell. Like it's okay to not exactly believe but to purposely shit on the belief, is crossing that line. Just in case we are wrong in our disbelief. I see religion as sacred because others hold that belief, not because it is one of my own. I don't think anywhere in my person is a fear of hell. But....to purposely shit on something of great value to another makes me feel like, well, shit.

LafayetteLady -> RE: ideas for christian humiliation (11/21/2011 11:56:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse I am not religious..........far from it. I also have no problem at all, when it comes up in discussion, expressing my point of view on the subject. But I won't ridicule others for their religious beliefs (at least not to their face......) and I won't intentionally make people who didn't bring the subject up, uncomfortable with my point of view. It's kinda like dicks. Personally I think their are pretty ugly and funny looking. But I don't run around, getting in the face of every guy I see, telling him my point of view of dicks. Now if he puts it out there for all and sundry to see, making it a nearly unavoidable topic, I am probably going to voice my point of view on the topic and chances are, he won't like it. But he is the one that made it a topic of conversation. As far as religious beliefs and mocking I guess I can see two sides to the coin. If I can walk around handing out bibles, trying to save people, getting in peoples faces and telling them, in essence they will go to hell if they don't start believing like I do, people also have equal right to mock and ridicule my beliefs. Both are equally offensive. It's just that one is considered 'decent' and acceptable and the other isn't. Actually, as I said, I don't take well to those out in public preaching to all and sundry. I do find it pushing your beliefs onto others, and I have been known to say some very nasty things to the Jehovah Witnesses who knock on the door early on a Saturday morning. The difference is that those who are doing it because of their beliefs, are sincere in what they are doing. In the case of the OP, it is so he can humiliate her not only because it isn't her belief, but because he wants her to publicly mock other people's beliefs by the suggestions given here. I didn't find what he was doing to be offensive to me, nor did I find it particularly humiliating. I do find it interesting though, that when I posed a question of whether it was ok for him to try to humiliate her with various Jewish things, or to pretend she was disabled, either physically or mentally, people choose to ignore it. And what about race play? Would it be appropriate, if she were black to "humiliate" her by having her present herself as a second class citizen? To tell her she had to let all the white people go in front of her because she was black? To ask where the "blacks only" water fountain or bathroom was? Of course, everyone here would be uber offended, but for some reason, Christianity is ok to mock.

kalikshama -> RE: ideas for christian humiliation (11/21/2011 11:58:27 AM)
quote: You'd just think you saw a woman wearing a "WWJD?" shirt. Or you'd think you saw a woman wearing a cross necklace. I have no objection to this. quote: Or you'd think that another one of those religious people tried to get you saved. I object to both real and fake proselytizing.

Rochsub2009 -> RE: ideas for christian humiliation (11/21/2011 12:01:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lizi .to purposely shit on something of great value to another makes me feel like, well, shit. I agree completely. But apparently the OP doesn't. But I would NEVER do this.

Rochsub2009 -> RE: ideas for christian humiliation (11/21/2011 12:10:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr My personal ethics state that humiliating another person by swarming them with Jesus stuff is out of line. I don't care if it's done because of kink or faith. Many of the examples given on this thread would have been offensive to me even if done by a religious person. There where many examples you gave that aren't intruding into other people's lives, like praying before eating, carrying a Bible or wearing a religious T-shirt. However, actively forcing others to partake by approaching them with questions and statements that the bystander very well may find humiliating, inconvenient, or annoying is just out of line. I agree with your sentiment. The only area where I differ is that I tried to focus on behaviors that we see on a daily basis anyway, so my hope was that they could be executed invisibly. I completely understand your concerns about annoying bystanders with proselytizing. However, that is something that happens anyway. I'm sure that a Jehovah's Witness has knocked on your door before. But I respect your desire to not add to that behavior.

lizi -> RE: ideas for christian humiliation (11/21/2011 12:12:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009 <snip> To me, that is the key to good humiliation play. The person being humiliated feels bad, but those who are nearby are actually unaware of what's going on, or simply don't care. Human beings have an over-inflated sense of their own importance. Many times, a person feels humiliated because they think all eyes are on them. But the reality is that most people aren't even paying attention to them. And a good Dom/Domme should be able to formulate a scene that give their sub the humiliation they crave, and yet doesn't really impact the innocent bystanders. It may take a little creative thinking, but it can be done. And it doesn't have to happen exclusively in a BDSM dungeon. So, it's ok to take chances out in public of having someone unconsensualy involved in something that two people are choosing to engage in? I get kind of protective about consensuality. There's a difference there between the two people who discussed and accepted and then the rest of the world. I don't think it's over-inflated to wonder if these things are indeed as invisible as you think they are. On threads of making a sub not wear panties people get testy over the possibility of having nude genitals flash the unsuspecting. The feeling seems to be if there is a possibility of kink overflow onto people who have not previously agreed to it that it's not ok.

Rochsub2009 -> RE: ideas for christian humiliation (11/21/2011 12:14:11 PM)
Delete.

LaTigresse -> RE: ideas for christian humiliation (11/21/2011 12:15:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady ..................... is ok to mock. Here is the dealio as I see it. I don't really give a damn what anyone outside of my control mocks. I cannot control it, I am not responsible for it. But there is the key as I see it. If I mock something then I need to take responsibility/ownership of my words/actions and accept WHATEVER reactions I get from that. If it alienates/hurts/angers people I love/respect/like/wanna hang with......that's something I've got to live with. I accept that. Freedom of speech/expression does come with a cost. All I suggest to anyone is that they think it through and be aware of, and willing to pay, the potential price. And don't come whining to me when they didn't think it through and are now paying.

Rochsub2009 -> RE: ideas for christian humiliation (11/21/2011 12:17:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lizi I don't think it's over-inflated to wonder if these things are indeed as invisible as you think they are. On threads of making a sub not wear panties people get testy over the possibility of having nude genitals flash the unsuspecting. The feeling seems to be if there is a possibility of kink overflow onto people who have not previously agreed to it that it's not ok. I understand. This thread was bound to be a potentially volatile one. We all know that threads that insinuate involving the non-consensual public always become powder kegs. They are usually the most highly debated threads on the board. But this one also added religion. That combination was bound to turn into a nuclear explosion.

LafayetteLady -> RE: ideas for christian humiliation (11/21/2011 12:19:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009 To me, a more analogous example would be to make her wear a star of David around her neck. Or to wear a yarmulke (sp?) out in public during Passover. That would be very normal behavior for some Jewish people, so it would become virtually invisible. But the OP's slave would feel humiliated. Actually if she wore a yarmulke, it would be more of a mockery, since she is female. A more anologous example would be to have her go out dressed as a female Hacidic (sp?) Jew. quote: To me, the line would be in doing things that immediately stand out from the norm, or that insult the religion (like making her wear a shirt with a Star of David on one side, and a swastika on the other). Everyone would immediately notice that, and it would be offensive to most people. But the other examples likely wouldn't be noticed at all (IMO). Hitler happy face t-shirt is un-noticable to you? quote: Human beings have an over-inflated sense of their own importance. Many times, a person feels humiliated because they think all eyes are on them. But the reality is that most people aren't even paying attention to them. And a good Dom/Domme should be able to formulate a scene that give their sub the humiliation they crave, and yet doesn't really impact the innocent bystanders. It may take a little creative thinking, but it can be done. And it doesn't have to happen exclusively in a BDSM dungeon. Yet, nearly all of the examples DO impact innocent bystanders. Ishtarr's statement about him fucking her with a crucifix. Do I find that offensive based on my beliefs? Not really. If he wanted to do that on the stairs of a Catholic church? I'm still not personally offended having abandoned Catholicism years ago, but it has become openly disrespectful. My only thoughts about him fucking her with a crucifix is that it is a serious health risk due to the possibility of the shape and sharp edges causing damage. The point is that around here, people can openly talk about being a Pagan, Agnostic, or Atheist, and that's fine. Mention you are Christian and you will be called mentally ill, stupid and any other number of offensive things. Mind you I didn't say "preaching your Christian beliefs," just mentioning what you belief. Not everyone does it, but more than enough. So you know what? Yes, I find it offensive. I find it to be a self centered disrespect of other people's beliefs. I DO believe that as human beings, we should draw a line in the sand between something that is just kinky behavior and something that is offensive or dangerous. I DO believe that this whole "I am not going to be judgemental of other people's kinks" is a big fucking cop out by people who don't have the balls to stand up for what they believe in. Because there are a good number of respectable people here who DO have the balls to draw that line and not worry that the "rep" might be adversely affected by them saying so.

Ishtarr -> RE: ideas for christian humiliation (11/21/2011 12:19:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009 I'm sure that a Jehovah's Witness has knocked on your door before. Actually, no, that's never happened to me before. I would equally not appreciate it being done by them, than I would a kinkster doing the same thing. quote: ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009 The only area where I differ is that I tried to focus on behaviors that we see on a daily basis anyway, so my hope was that they could be executed invisibly. The fact that religious people are often out of line pushing their religion on others doesn't mean that it's not also out of line for a kinkster to do the same thing. What you're basically doing is stating that because one group already does something inappropriate, it's okay for kinksters to do the same inappropriate thing to get their rocks off, because nobody would notice that they're doing it for kink. Following that logic, it would be okay for kinksters with rape fantasies to actually rape women, because there are already non-kinky men who do the same, and nobody would really noticed that the kinksters are doing it for kink.

lizi -> RE: ideas for christian humiliation (11/21/2011 12:27:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009 I understand. This thread was bound to be a potentially volatile one. We all know that threads that insinuate involving the non-consensual public always become powder kegs. They are usually the most highly debated threads on the board. But this one also added religion. That combination was bound to turn into a nuclear explosion. Well, hopefully people will keep discussing and not falling into powder keg territory because I think there are some very valid points here to explore and so far, everyone is exploring. Let's hope the nuclear explosion won't happen. This is a good conversation. If we were in someone's living room I'd probably get another round of drinks for everyone and encourage further talk. It's nice when something meaty comes up rather than the SOS.

LafayetteLady -> RE: ideas for christian humiliation (11/21/2011 12:30:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009 quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr My personal ethics state that humiliating another person by swarming them with Jesus stuff is out of line. I don't care if it's done because of kink or faith. Many of the examples given on this thread would have been offensive to me even if done by a religious person. There where many examples you gave that aren't intruding into other people's lives, like praying before eating, carrying a Bible or wearing a religious T-shirt. However, actively forcing others to partake by approaching them with questions and statements that the bystander very well may find humiliating, inconvenient, or annoying is just out of line. And what happens when the bystander she asks about having been saved wants to have a conversation about this? Then what? Because believe it or not, that DOES happen. Everyone doesn't just rudely tell the fundamentalists to fuck off and walk away. What happens when they want to discuss religion? Does she continue her game or does she fess up that she was just playing a kinky sex game? I agree with your sentiment. The only area where I differ is that I tried to focus on behaviors that we see on a daily basis anyway, so my hope was that they could be executed invisibly. I completely understand your concerns about annoying bystanders with proselytizing. However, that is something that happens anyway. I'm sure that a Jehovah's Witness has knocked on your door before. But I respect your desire to not add to that behavior.

LafayetteLady -> RE: ideas for christian humiliation (11/21/2011 12:40:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse Here is the dealio as I see it. I don't really give a damn what anyone outside of my control mocks. I cannot control it, I am not responsible for it. But there is the key as I see it. If I mock something then I need to take responsibility/ownership of my words/actions and accept WHATEVER reactions I get from that. If it alienates/hurts/angers people I love/respect/like/wanna hang with......that's something I've got to live with. I accept that. Freedom of speech/expression does come with a cost. All I suggest to anyone is that they think it through and be aware of, and willing to pay, the potential price. And don't come whining to me when they didn't think it through and are now paying. Yes, freedom of speech comes with a cost. But here is where I see the difference. Hypothetically, you are in a store and you a man verbally assaulting his partner. She is visably upset and embarassed. Do you walk by? What if he took a swing at her? Do you still walk by? What if you see someone openly being discriminated against for their sexuality or ethnicity? Do you walk away because those people aren't "under your control?" I know there are a good number of people here who would do just that. Walk away. I openly and honestly admit that I wouldn't. Look at the whole Penn State thing. People are really pissed off because Joe Paterno did nothing but tell his superiors. Essentially, it was "out of his control," so he didn't take that extra step. Yes, it is a different situation, but it is all about having the balls to speak up when something is inherently wrong. It is ok to say that the Westboro Church shouldn't be able to protest and mock soldier's funerals (and make no mistake, their behavior is a form of mockery), but it isn't ok to say people shouldn't mock Christianity on the whole. There are more than enough examples throughout history where people believing it wasn't "under their control" (a PC way of saying, "not my business") met with dire circumstances. Penn State is one example. The Civil Rights movement was another, since so many people just didn't want to stand up for the change, even though they believed in it.

lizi -> RE: ideas for christian humiliation (11/21/2011 12:42:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama quote: You'd just think you saw a woman wearing a "WWJD?" shirt. Or you'd think you saw a woman wearing a cross necklace. I have no objection to this. quote: Or you'd think that another one of those religious people tried to get you saved. I object to both real and fake proselytizing. I'd agree to both of these things. I still couldn't do the personal, although invisible, mockery and people who shove their religion and other things in my face for real reasons, or fake ones, can go play in traffic. Anything that crosses over into my own personal space is not welcome. Wear all the tshirts you want, put on your so and so for president buttons, slap a bumpersticker on your car for gay rights, but don't get up in my face or attempt to hand me what should be my own personal well thought out beliefs on a plate and say this is what I'm supposed to do and how I'm supposed to feel. I get cranky about being told what to do in areas where I haven't consciously granted that right. Actually....? Organized christian religion on the whole drives me nuts. There always seem to be lines crossed there where those in the majority think it's ok to foist what they want on others. I will still defend those people the right not to have their beliefs mocked though.

Rochsub2009 -> RE: ideas for christian humiliation (11/21/2011 12:50:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr quote: ORIGINAL: Rochsub2009 The only area where I differ is that I tried to focus on behaviors that we see on a daily basis anyway, so my hope was that they could be executed invisibly. What you're basically doing is stating that because one group already does something inappropriate, it's okay for kinksters to do the same inappropriate thing to get their rocks off, because nobody would notice that they're doing it for kink. Following that logic, it would be okay for kinksters with rape fantasies to actually rape women, because there are already non-kinky men who do the same, and nobody would really noticed that the kinksters are doing it for kink. That's not how my logic went at all. Rape is illegal. It will get you placed in jail. A better analogy would have been talking about politics in public. It's something that is not illegal, but has the potential to be extremely polarizing. Yet, people do it anyway. From the Tea Party folks, to the Occupy Wall Street folks, to Fox News or MSNBC, the potential to offend is ubiquitous. Yet none of those things are shut down. So it wouldn't offend me if someone pretended to be a part of the Occupy Wall Street movement. But I'm sure it would offend some.

LaTigresse -> RE: ideas for christian humiliation (11/21/2011 1:00:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady Yes, freedom of speech comes with a cost. But here is where I see the difference. Hypothetically, you are in a store and you a man verbally assaulting his partner. She is visably upset and embarassed. Do you walk by? What if he took a swing at her? Do you still walk by? What if you see someone openly being discriminated against for their sexuality or ethnicity? Do you walk away because those people aren't "under your control?" I know there are a good number of people here who would do just that. Walk away. I openly and honestly admit that I wouldn't. Look at the whole Penn State thing. People are really pissed off because Joe Paterno did nothing but tell his superiors. Essentially, it was "out of his control," so he didn't take that extra step. Yes, it is a different situation, but it is all about having the balls to speak up when something is inherently wrong. It is ok to say that the Westboro Church shouldn't be able to protest and mock soldier's funerals (and make no mistake, their behavior is a form of mockery), but it isn't ok to say people shouldn't mock Christianity on the whole. There are more than enough examples throughout history where people believing it wasn't "under their control" (a PC way of saying, "not my business") met with dire circumstances. Penn State is one example. The Civil Rights movement was another, since so many people just didn't want to stand up for the change, even though they believed in it. Well now here you are mixing apples and oranges. What I am talking about in my previous post is with regard to what is legal. If a grown woman is going to allow some putz to yell at her......while I may think he is an asshole of the highest order and have no reservation in saying so.......unless he is actually threatening harm, yelling is legal. Physical abuse is illegal. Discrimination is illegal. Child abuse is illegal. Mocking a religioun is not illegal. Tacky yes. Unflattering to the mocker, at times yes. But not illegal. As far as the idiots of Westboro Church, as much as I think they are disgusting morons, as a U.S. citizen I support their legal rights. To do otherwise is dangerous. If I support legally limiting a person's right of free speech, even if I don't like what they are speaking, I have to accept that one day.........it might be MY speech that is no longer free. I believe it is very dangerous ground when we try to start forcing our own morality on others via the law.

Rochsub2009 -> RE: ideas for christian humiliation (11/21/2011 1:02:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady The point is that around here, people can openly talk about being a Pagan, Agnostic, or Atheist, and that's fine. Mention you are Christian and you will be called mentally ill, stupid and any other number of offensive things. Mind you I didn't say "preaching your Christian beliefs," just mentioning what you belief. Not everyone does it, but more than enough. So you know what? Yes, I find it offensive. I find it to be a self centered disrespect of other people's beliefs. I DO believe that as human beings, we should draw a line in the sand between something that is just kinky behavior and something that is offensive or dangerous. I DO believe that this whole "I am not going to be judgemental of other people's kinks" is a big fucking cop out by people who don't have the balls to stand up for what they believe in. Because there are a good number of respectable people here who DO have the balls to draw that line and not worry that the "rep" might be adversely affected by them saying so. I haven't noticed the attack on Christianity that you refer to. But I have never even looked at the Politics and Religion board. I'm sure some interesting conversations probably go on there. Frankly, I wouldn't touch that board with a 10 foot pole. I'm not silly enough to think that I can change anyone's thoughts on their politics or their religion. Having said that, I have great respect for your willingness to stand up for your beliefs. You seem to think that I am against your religion, but nothing could be further from the truth. Why do you think I was able to come up with so many examples? [;)]

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