RE: Cheap Bastards!!!!

RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (Full Version)

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Ishtarr -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 10:18:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror Sounds to me like our lower class has it worse than your lower class. I would agree on that. The American lower class has things exponentially harder than the Belgian one. The Belgian upper class has it much harder than the American one too. That's socialism for you. I personally prefer the free market over both the Belgian as well as the American system (which has a government regulated market just like Belgium, not a free one), but hey, that's just me.

Ishtarr -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 10:26:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl If a pizza cost you, in the US, 30 dollars, and there was no delivery charge, would you tip? or would you stop ordering pizza? I personally wouldn't stop ordering, I'd order pizza at $40 a pie too. But we can afford that and I like pizza that much. I imagine most people would stop ordering at those prices for a single pizza. If I would know the price increase went to corporate, and not the driver, I'd still tip on a $30 pizza (providing the service stayed the same as what I'm currently getting). So our driver would be happy with us, I'd still tip 20% so he'd be getting bigger tips from us. However, I imagine that most people wouldn't tip anymore, or would tip less. The reason I brought up the Belgian comparison is not to try and show that what Belgium does is better than the US. It's got its own very deep issues. The only reason I brought up the comparison is to show that it IS possible to have pizza be the same price it's now and pay your employees a fair cut of the price off a pizza. I don't know how to make the system better, I don't know how to make the American service industry people receive the money they deserve for their hard work. I wish I did know. But at the same time, I don't think that I should be the one to try and set straight the system on my own by feeling like I "owe" a tip for bad service, when minimal good service should already be included in the price of what ever it is that I'm buying. Feeding a bad system out of a sense of obligation isn't going to change or fix anything.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 10:26:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr The $4.60 tip on the $23 order is the 20% minimum I tip on a pizza that isn't late. When they get here 10 minutes faster than what they promised me, I tip 30%. Of course you can tip lower than that... but wait a second, aren't you the same guy that was chastising me for not tipping for a service I already pay for and only tipping for how well that service is delivered? You where arguing earlier in this thread that I MUST tip, because these people depend on their tips for survival, and now you're implying that a 20% tip is excessive? You're doing an awful lot of selective reading where my posts are concerned. I never said it was excessive. I said many don't tip that much. There's a difference. quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr Like I said earlier in this thread I don't have an issue with paying enough for pizza No, you just said that you don't like tipping in normal circumstances because you feel the company should pay the acceptable wage to begin with. My position is whether the money comes via tip or higher wages, you as a consumer are the one footing the bill, so what does it matter?

tazzygirl -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 10:30:00 PM)
Belgium corporate tax rate is 36%, the US, a little over 39%, when they pay.. lol quote: However, I also rather pay the fair market value for the services and goods I buy, rather than having to guess how much I need to pay for my pizza to make sure that the driver gets his fair share. I dislike the fact that under the American system, it's too easy for hard working lower-class people to get fucked over because a less than livable wage is common here. Minimum wage here isnt livable.. then add taxes. 25% of a check will go towards all the payroll taxes each week. a 400 dollar check becomes 300. As prices for rent, gas, products, ect inched upwards, minimum wages didnt increase for 10 years. Is it any wonder why the youth here are so mad?

Ishtarr -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 10:32:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror as you'd expect in any capitalist society). America doesn't have an actually capitalistic society. It's an extremely government regulated society that tries to pretend it's a capitalistic society -like most every Western nation I may add. quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror Whether it's a tip on the back end or a higher price on the front end, you're the one paying. Of course I'm the one paying. I've said all along that I have no problem with being the one paying. If I want a good or service, I should pay the fair market cost of what that good or service is worth. However, that doesn't mean that pizza would be $40 a pie because the driver gets a fair wage. It would probably mean a $2-$5 price increase though. But as you've pointed out: I'm already paying that extra in tips, so it shouldn't be an issue to just calculated in the driver's fair share upfront instead of leaving him open to be fucked over by people who think that a 20% tip on a pizza is excessive. The whole issue I've stated having with the tipping culture (and the topic on which this tread began) is that tipping makes sure that people can choose to pay less than the market value for a service, by choosing not to tip, or leaving useless paper instead. If tips are calculated into the cost of the service, all everybody is doing is paying a fair market value. And unlike what you've claimed, it would NOT triple prices overnight.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 10:33:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr The only reason I brought up the comparison is to show that it IS possible to have pizza be the same price it's now and pay your employees a fair cut of the price off a pizza. But what you also showed by accident is that the cost to the customer is the same.

Ishtarr -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 10:36:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror you as a consumer are the one footing the bill, so what does it matter? It matters because in one system people in the service industry are guaranteed a fair wage, while in the other, they can be fucked over by people leaving Bible verses instead of paying their fair share. quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr The only reason I brought up the comparison is to show that it IS possible to have pizza be the same price it's now and pay your employees a fair cut of the price off a pizza. But what you also showed by accident is that the cost to the customer is the same. No, not by accident. The fact that the cost is the same is my WHOLE POINT. I did the comparison to show that you where wrong, and that if fair wages where included in the bill, pizza wouldn't suddenly become $40. Instead, the prices would stay pretty much the same. Things don't cost less or more in a tip based system IF people pay a fair market value. A tip system just leaves people the option to fuck over the people in the service industry so they can save a few bucks and pay less than the market value.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 10:42:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr America doesn't have an actually capitalistic society. It's an extremely government regulated society that tries to pretend it's a capitalistic society -like most every Western nation I may add. True. But we have what we deserve. "We the people" are responsible for the way things are. So we got what we asked for. quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr Of course I'm the one paying. I've said all along that I have no problem with being the one paying. If I want a good or service, I should pay the fair market cost of what that good or service is worth. You do. But tips are also a part of that fair market system. They always will be. quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr However, that doesn't mean that pizza would be $40 a pie because the driver gets a fair wage. It would probably mean a $2-$5 price increase though. The $40 thing was just a figure I tossed out. However, we did establish that the price ends up being the same in both examples. Would you not rather know first-hand that the additional $5 went to the employee to thank him for his service than hoping it did via wages? quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr But as you've pointed out: I'm already paying that extra in tips, so it shouldn't be an issue to just calculated in the driver's fair share upfront instead of leaving him open to be fucked over by people who s to think that a 20% tip on a pizza is excessive. Think about this for a moment. You just said you'd rather the driver get a guaranteed amount of money, with no way to ensure he tries to go the extra mile, than to give him that money when he hands you a hot pizza. Again, with flat-rate income, people will do just enough to not get fired. With tip-income, the driver knows that if that pizza is piping hot and maybe a little early, he's getting more money.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 10:50:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr It matters because in one system people in the service industry are guaranteed a fair wage, while in the other, they can be fucked over by people leaving Bible verses instead of paying their fair share. One group or the other is always going to have the possibility of getting hosed -- either the consumer by being forced to pay money for bad service, or the service worker who may get screwed on an occasional tab. quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr No, not by accident. The fact that the cost is the same is my WHOLE POINT. Price, however, is not the same. The overall cost gets to be equal, but it's still a $23 pizza order vs. a $28 one. In other words, looking at the menu, one is higher than the other. And that's assumimg an equal swap in profit margins, taxes, etc. We've also all agreed we don't know what the difference would truly be because we're talking two different countries.

Ishtarr -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 10:50:59 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror Think about this for a moment. You just said you'd rather the driver get a guaranteed amount of money, with no way to ensure he tries to go the extra mile, than to give him that money when he hands you a hot pizza. I'd rather that the driver will be guaranteed that doing his job will earn him enough money to make a living off than have a system where even if he excels at his job, people can hand him Bible verses instead of paying him for a job well done. quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror Again, with flat-rate income, people will do just enough to not get fired. With tip-income, the driver knows that if that pizza is piping hot and maybe a little early, he's getting more money. You're speaking purely hypothetical there. I have lived in a tip based system, and I have lived in a system where the service industry is guaranteed a fair wage. I still got my pizza in time, and hot, with polite service whether I had to pay the driver by tipping, or whether his "tip" was included in the bill.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 10:55:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr I have lived in a tip based system, and I have lived in a system where the service industry is guaranteed a fair wage. I still got my pizza in time, and hot, with polite service whether I had to pay the driver by tipping, or whether his "tip" was included in the bill. No, you lived in two very different countries with very different mindsets and views on those service employees. Take away the Belgium drivers' company vehicles and benefits and see if that pizza is as hot when you get it.

Ishtarr -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 10:55:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr It matters because in one system people in the service industry are guaranteed a fair wage, while in the other, they can be fucked over by people leaving Bible verses instead of paying their fair share. One group or the other is always going to have the possibility of getting hosed -- either the consumer by being forced to pay money for bad service, or the service worker who may get screwed on an occasional tab. You yourself noted that the American lower class seems to be worse off than the Belgian one. If it was just the occasional tab they got screwed over on, I'd agree with you. However, that doesn't seem to be the case. Everybody who posted on this tread and who has worked in the American service industry has said that the big tippers needed where needed to pump up their average to a reasonable rate to compensate for the many times they got stiffed. Under the current system, too many are refusing to pay a fair market value and are expecting everybody else to pick up the tab. What's even worse is that it's people with less money to start who seem to be picking up the tab for the rest, because they understand better what it is to struggle along on a less than minimum wage job. quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr Price, however, is not the same. The overall cost gets to be equal, but it's still a $23 pizza order vs. a $28 one. In other words, looking at the menu, one is higher than the other. One menu only costs more than the other if you're proposing that the driver shouldn't get paid at all.

Ishtarr -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 10:58:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror No, you lived in two very different countries with very different mindsets and views on those service employees. Take away the Belgium drivers' company vehicles and benefits and see if that pizza is as hot when you get it. If he's paid a fair wage for the time, equipment and effort he puts in, the pizza would be just as hot when it gets there. If the driver's vehicles where taken away, the cost of the pizza would stay the same, because while the company didn't have the cost of the vehicles anymore, they would have to pay the driver more as an incentive to use his own vehicle.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 10:59:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr You yourself noted that the American lower class seems to be worse off than the Belgian one. If it was just the occasional tab they got screwed over on, I'd agree with you. However, that doesn't seem to be the case. Everybody who posted on this tread and who has worked in the American service industry has said that the big tippers needed where needed to pump up their average to a reasonable rate to compensate for the many times they got stiffed. Under the current system, too many are refusing to pay a fair market value and are expecting everybody else to pick up the tab. What's even worse is that it's people with less money to start who seem to be picking up the tab for the rest, because they understand better what it is to struggle along on a less than minimum wage job. Yes, but with all its flaws, it still gives the freedom of choice. Yes there are bad tippers, but they get remembered. Their service suffers as a result. Big tippers have their names remembered and people bend over backwards for them. quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr One menu only costs more than the other if you're proposing that the driver shouldn't get paid at all. The masses don't understand that, though. And that's my point. If we changed systems overnight, there'd be a major backlash over the change in price. Many just don't care about anyone but themselves.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 11:01:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr If the driver's vehicles where taken away, the cost of the pizza would stay the same, because while the company didn't have the cost of the vehicles anymore, they would have to pay the driver more as an incentive to use his own vehicle. Now THAT is speculation.

Ishtarr -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 11:12:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror Yes, but with all its flaws, it still gives the freedom of choice. Yes there are bad tippers, but they get remembered. Their service suffers as a result. Big tippers have their names remembered and people bend over backwards for them. I will absolutely grant you that. Apparently we're known in town as big tippers, which can become quite annoying sometimes, because sometimes I just want to eat uninterrupted without the waiter hovering over me to ask if I'm okay or need anything every 5 seconds. Maybe I should start stiffing them on tips so I can have some peace and quite once in while. [:D] So a question for those who have experience in the service industry: How do I let a waiter know that I want them to leave me alone more and that just being available when I need them will get them a better tip from us than hovering? Just telling them seems so crude, so is there another way? quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr One menu only costs more than the other if you're proposing that the driver shouldn't get paid at all. The masses don't understand that, though. And that's my point. If we changed systems overnight, there'd be a major backlash over the change in price. Many just don't care about anyone but themselves. I'm by no means suggesting that the system can or should be changed overnight. Especially not because such an overnight shift can only be accomplished by more government regulation, and if there is ANYTHING I'm against it's that. I'm not offering any solutions here. I don't really know what to do or how to fix the growing insecurity of the American lower class. All I know is that with all the reasons I've heard pro the tipping system, "more freedom of choice" is the only one I consider a valid argument. Everything else (it will increase prices, people won't do their job, the industry would collapse) is simple not true. It seems though, that after all this bickering back and forward, we agree about more than we disagree.

Ishtarr -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 11:13:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr If the driver's vehicles where taken away, the cost of the pizza would stay the same, because while the company didn't have the cost of the vehicles anymore, they would have to pay the driver more as an incentive to use his own vehicle. Now THAT is speculation. I disagree. It's mere logic knowing how a free market system works.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Cheap Bastards!!!! (11/26/2011 11:21:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr All I know is that with all the reasons I've heard pro the tipping system, "more freedom of choice" is the only one I consider a valid argument. Everything else (it will increase prices, people won't do their job, the industry would collapse) is simple not true. It's not untrue. It's simply unknown to what extent it is true. We know prices, even if only menu prices, will go up. We know American companies are all about more more more in terms of profit and would much rather pass costs on to the consumer. We also know that when workers have no incentive, their effort can suffer. quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr It seems though, that after all this bickering back and forward, we agree about more than we disagree. It would appear so, yes.

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