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However extreme their activities are, it's impossible to tell whether someone is SANE, except on a case by case basis. Having said that, i don't believe the notion that kinksters are no different from the rest of the world, except for kink.

pam

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On Fet, I've seen some people who do make me wonder if their humilation/degredation things are healthy -- for example, a very, veeeryy obese woman, who wants humiliation from anyone who happens by her profile, based on how fat she is. I admit, I do wonder sometimes if that's her way of trying to "turn a negative into a positive." I dunno. Maybe she let herself get so fat BECAUSE she wanted to be humilated for it? It's not always an easy "cart before the horse" scenario.

and

There are some things, like the recent breeding thread, that generally rub people the wrong way, and fall into the "wrong" category -- mostly on the grounds that it harms someone else who isn't a party to the original game. But I don't think most people are doing things like tha

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I find that interesting, I am big, muscular, my father, grandfather and uncles are all big, nature made us that way and we all cater to the women in our lives but if I were to tell my father he was submissive he would disown me and view me as mentally unstable.

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ORIGINAL: stellauk

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ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Do people who are involved in BDSM, most especially the sadism and masochism aspects, have more emotional and mental "issues" than the general population?

I'm not sure that I or anyone else can draw such a conclusion with any degree of reliability. We all have issues, both emotional and mental, to varying degrees, and my own personal criteria when making such judgements is how self-aware the person is of their issues, what do they do to either compensate or discount those issues, and how much those issues impact on their ability to function in life and in relationships.

My own personal view is that emotional and mental issues only really become a problem when there is some degree of dysfunction which impacts on a relationship or their ability to function, e.g. work.

I also don't make any distinction between people involved in WIITWD and people out there in wider society. We're all the same - just people - and while our involvement in our respective subcultures that make up WIITWD may influence our attitudes and thinking - especially in terms of relationships - we still remain the same people more or less.

What differs, which is something one might find in other areas of culture, such as art, music, the performing arts, is that we have some opportunity of an outlet to express ourselves and those issues by means which can bring something beneficial to other people than ourselves.

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ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Is a proclivity towards sadism or masochism a result of past (childhood) trauma?

Possibly it is, but unless we have shared experience with that particular person in their childhood and followed them through life we can only go by what they tell us and that what we assume by filling in the blanks and comparisons with our own life experiences.

It also need not be from trauma experienced in childhood, but also as a result of the traumatic experiences gained from abuse in previous relationships. I believe that issues develop from our relationships per se, both with ourselves and with other people. We learn how to deal with those issues from ...erm.. um.. our relationships with others and with ourselves. Relationships happen in cycles, and are themselves nothing more than a complex mass of cycles of interaction, ritual, habit, and communication. From a certain perspective it's a kind of undulating vicious circle which yes, at times does make life quite vicious in itself.

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ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Is subbing to someone always damaging to the ego on some level?

Not necessarily. In my case it gave me the opportunity to explore and examine my own gender issues in the context of a relationship - while there's been a link between the two they have always been very clear and very distinct (separate) parts of me and by extension, it allowed me to redefine myself and discover a new purpose in life that I failed to identify due to my confusion as to who or what I am. But at that stage it was service and the relationships were more symbiotic than perhaps later.

I'm more of the opinion that submission to the wrong person for the wrong reasons can always be potentially damaging and sometimes when used to address an issue can create an even bigger issue.

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ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Is subbing only damaging if humiliation, degradation and debasement are involved?

I cannot offer any meaningful or reliable insight here. I might have wanted in the past to be humiliated or degraded but it's not my thing and I've been trained and conditioned so well to have a mindset that my submission through service comes from dignity, honour and integrity and to reject such things as humiliation or degradation.

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ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Is sadism *always* the result of hating your "victim" on some level, while masking it as "love?"

I have no opinion. I'm not a sadist.

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ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

If a sub lives for humiliation, degradation, objectification, and debasement, is this *always* the result of poor self esteem?

I don't live for these things, but I suffer from unreliable self-appraisal issues and can suffer sudden losses of self-esteem and self-confidence. For me personally to experience humiliation or debasement would only serve to feed my emotional masochism, justifying it and enabling it. I address my own self-esteem issues either through my creative work or creative self-expression or through my service to others because it is through this I have learned to validate myself and overcome the issue. I'm a great believer in personal responsibility and ownership of my issues and while at times I may seek validation from others I feel that I am also responsible for being able to validate myself through my own actions.

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ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

My opinions on these questions can be summed up fairly easily. First, everyone has issues, since no one gets to have a perfect childhood or lead a perfect life. We all have our baggage.

I agree. I wish at times I could morph into Heathrow Airport just so that some of the baggage can disappear.

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ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

I don't think people who practice BDSM necessarily have more baggage than the general population. I think this all depends on how you deal with those issues. If you hide behind your issues and never really explore why you are the way you are, than you are going to be a BDSM practitioner who is perhaps dangerous to yourself and others. If you see it as your life's work to resolve your issues (as I do) I think it can enhance your life and aid some of that resolution.

To me change is the only constant in our lives. We change because our relationships change which change us and we change as a result. Life and relationships I believe occur in complex cycles and sometimes to overcome an issue it requires repeated attempts of going through a cycle of broken relationships or attempts - we're all living by trial and error and each new relationship takes us back to the beginning.

I also believe that there's a spiritual element too, and perhaps we also have relationships beyond the physical into the metaphysical. Sometimes life throws us a curve ball and our lives and relationships just seem to crumble and collapse and we are all of a sudden facing a bigger issue, a crisis, and this is when we need to overcome the issues we have and somehow learn and progress. If we don't the same situation keeps coming back, and it will keep coming back until we overcome those issues.

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ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

I do think that those who like extreme sadomasochist play, such as breaking bones, or extreme degradation play, like eating scat (sorry) have some stuff they need to deal with. That these acts are consensual does not make them "sane" to me.

I was discussing something similar with someone (another poster) recently on the topic of sadists.

I'm of the view that, as we all have issues, there is often a degree of codependency in our relationships which may be mild or insignificant or it may be more significant. I'm of the view that yes, people can work with each other's issues in such codependency and this is par for course in any relationship, where after the initial attraction and chemistry we make a value judgment on someone's bad habits, inadequacies, weaknesses, vulnerabilities and issues in deciding whether to continue the relationship or not. In such a case where there's not much dysfunction codependency can exist in the form of 'working on oneself' with the emotional support of the other.

However I draw the line at dysfunction - issues which impact either on the person themselves or on others in such a way so as to impair their ability to function in a relationship. Therefore I don't accept that BDSM is an acceptable substitute for receiving professional help and support.

BDSM isn't to me just about consent, whether it be RACK or SSC but it's also about personal responsibility and the ability to foresee or make allowances for unforeseen consequences.

This is where sadism here in BDSM differs from the sadism of some of those sitting on Death Row awaiting execution. Nothing to do with consent, but to do with intention, motivation, personal responsibility and dealing with the consequences.

You see when you get into the extreme S/M stuff there are cases where, while the person might not die, they can end up severely or permanently damaged, not necessarily through injury, but emotionally, psychologically. And it doesn't have to take much to put someone in that state. I know a few sadists who are into that extreme stuff and generally they are people who are in complete control, rational, and very much aware of people and the sorts of issues people have.

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~Is subbing only damaging if humiliation, degradation and debasement are involved?

Possibly? I'm not really into humiliation because it does bring me down. Others seem to really enjoy it and it doesn't bother them.

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ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

This is from Reform (post #14)

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~Is subbing only damaging if humiliation, degradation and debasement are involved?

Possibly? I'm not really into humiliation because it does bring me down. Others seem to really enjoy it and it doesn't bother them.

I pulled this part of your post out because you specifically mention that humiliation brings you down.

I don't mean to be obtrusive, but could you possibly expand and clarify that? And I don't want to ask more b/c I'd like your words, your thoughts, w/o my own possibly skewing your response.

TY

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ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt
My man calling me his slut, or his bad pussy, just turns me on. I know I am a slut for him, that is just fact, and hearing those words from him floats my boat big time.

Now if he humiliated me about my age, or my weight, or my sense of direction, I would have issues, b/c I would hate that.

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ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt



Is a proclivity towards sadism or masochism a result of past (childhood) trauma?

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ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Do you call than co-dependency? I think you do. But it is certainly not negative.

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Chatte Parfait

I know for my own self that being submissive to another means giving up a great deal of my pride and my ego, and for me, that's a good thing. It makes me a much better, more well rounded person. For whatever reason, this is not something I do on my own. On my own I am far too type A to even be healthy physically, to say nothing of emotionally.

However, being with a dominant male who gets me allows me the freedom to express all those hidden emotional sides. I am softer, more feminine, more compassionate and caring.  I'm better. I'm a nicer person.