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RE: Is the proclivity for BDSM a result of past trauma? - 12/5/2011 1:22:26 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Im saying if you've had a damaging traumatic experience you have a 1 in 2 chance to cause trauma.
Since a lot of bdsm is about abuse, maybe there are higher rates of people doing this being fucked up. Most will say here they are not fucked up. While most profiles bitch about people here being fucked up only askin for sex etc.A psycho wont cum on the forum saying he is totally fucked up wacko weird pervert. Or maybe sadism is not abusive? Maybe you like being abused...Maybe it's normal. lol

Butt assumptions are the mother of who?
just a thought...
No I am not changing the subject. I am turning it upside down from another perspective.



I appreciate your clarification, MrB. I do not, however, agree with some of your statements.

I don't think "a lot of BDSM is about abuse."  I would rephrase that to say: Many BDSM activities have the potential for abuse." Which is quite different in my mind.

Also, it's been stated before (sorry long day and I'm frankly too lazy to try and search for the post),  but neither sadism nor masochism is considered "abnormal" in the context of a loving relationship.

Although I have to further state, to me, there are degrees of sadism and masochism that I consider abuse even if it is consensual.

You seem to be saying sadism is always abusive, and that most people into BDSM are fucked up in someway.

As far as most people being fucked up, I agree with you. But when I say that, I mean  everybody, the wholedamn human race is inherently flawed.  Are some more fucked up then others? Sure. Do some of those tend to veer towards BDSM as an acceptable way to be a predator under the pretense of being a dominant. Of course. Just as some use BDSM as an acceptable way of continuing their victim mentality.

This thread has had several posts along these lines.

I agree that the most fucked up probably appear the most normal. There are psychopaths who can appear good as gold (for awhile), while inside they are anything but.

I think much of this is dependent on how much a person has worked on themselves. I had a fucked up childhood, a fucked up teen age, and a fucked up early 20s. Then I married someone as fucked up as me. But that was 30 years ago. I have taken the time to really work on myself in some ways. It certainly shows in the type of men I am with now and the type I attract.

So, to a certain extent I get what you are saying. But you seem to have a very fatalist view.














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RE: Is the proclivity for BDSM a result of past trauma? - 12/5/2011 2:16:10 PM   
LillyBoPeep


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I agree with Chatte that it would be better to say "potential for abuse," which is a different statement than "BDSM is about abuse."
To me, it's not, unless the person receiving feels abused. That might be kinda nebulous, but eh... it works for me.
While there are some things that hit my "you've got issues" button, and while I have wondered at times if consent can really be a blanket for everything, I think as long as a person is entering into something consensual with an idea of the risks, then that person isn't being abused.

It's such a grey area though... An outsider may see something as abuse, no matter what you say. I had a thread a little while ago about dealing with people who feel the need to stick up for you, as an s-type (particularly a female one). Sometimes outsiders observe something, and feel the need to intervene or make a comment "for your sake." Some people do think that the only reason people participate in this sort of stuff is because they're either cracked, or they've been coerced.

A predatory personality can coerce another person to consent to anything, even if it is completely and utterly bad. And some people do things willingly that give most people the creeps -- remember Armin Miewes, who found a willing victim for cannibalism? He and the victim tried to eat the victim's penis together. So I don't think consent makes everything okay, though, I guess you could argue that this was this victim's choice of what to do with his body. If you're really going to try to diagnose it, you have to get an idea of the state of mind of both participates.

But again, most BDSMers aren't doing stuff like that.
The brawl clubs that another user told me about -- probably a little too scary for me, but these people consent to it and enjoy it, even if there are broken bones and hospitalisations involved. And is it really any different than something that happens in boxing and MMA fights?

We have some more defined areas, like areas of imbalanced maturity or authority, like a parent or a child, a teacher and a student, or areas of defined equal value, like a vanilla marriage where one partner doesn't have the right to terrorize the other, where we can more easily decide what abuse looks like.

But in many other ways, it's perceptions and opinions...

All I know is, nothing I've ever done or felt left me feeling abused, in, say, the battered wife "if only i did better, he wouldn't have to do this" sense.
Terrified? Sure.
Crying? Of course.
Wishing it would end and I could run away? Yah.
But abused? No.

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RE: Is the proclivity for BDSM a result of past trauma? - 12/5/2011 3:35:09 PM   
SailingBum


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

You SB fall in the category SOB that loves SHB.
But normal? you? really?
Nah I don't think so...




eh what the hell do you know??? Smirk

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RE: Is the proclivity for BDSM a result of past trauma? - 12/5/2011 6:39:33 PM   
submaleinuk


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WORDS OF WISDOM.... HE WHO CONQUERS OTHERS IS STRONG. HE WHO CONQURES HIMSELF IS SO MIGHTY.....

Anyone who wants a way out of this lifestyle needs to change their whole outlook on life, like someone else said, life often rewards people who are controlling to others it's ingrained into out culture,you need to come from a higher self, most people won't do this but it is possible, don't give up

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RE: Is the proclivity for BDSM a result of past trauma? - 12/5/2011 6:45:09 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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Alrighty then !

I'm sorry you feel so damaged. You obviously have your own agenda. Best of luck with that and I sincerely hope you feel better at some point.

Chatte


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RE: Is the proclivity for BDSM a result of past trauma? - 12/6/2011 2:29:07 AM   
mons


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op I do believe in me there is that part of me that stays dominant to let
go of abuse as a child and as an adult it makes sense to me!  This helps me
be in control and not to be under anyone at all!  But then there is the part of me
whom as a child i wanted to play hitting, the boys, and the part of me as an adult that
enjoys this power and pleasure i now know and understand why i am this way!
Somewhere down the road back to our childhood yes we had something, it maybe
so small we do not remember but it is there and this is what it has turn into!  It may had not
been something bad, but it was something!  It this does not make us bad a people at all!!!!!!


I had a submissive whom aunts would beat him as a child and they did it until it was
against his own self, was turn on, and the the horror of this confuse him!  He is a submissive, does it
make him not right or different no, but it played a part that shows up in him years later!  This is
not the answer to all submissve or dominant, but i do believe as a dominant in my case abuse
made me as i am! 

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RE: Is the proclivity for BDSM a result of past trauma? - 12/6/2011 3:54:22 AM   
gungadin09


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Do people who are involved in BDSM, most especially the sadism and masochism aspects, have more emotional and mental "issues" than the general population?

I have more issues than the general population. 

Is a proclivity towards sadism or masochism a result of past (childhood) trauma?

When i was younger, i would always find out that my friends had been abused as children. (I wasn't, although i had an odd, unhappy childhood.)  The thing is, i didn't know that before becoming friends with them.  i always found out much later.  None of them knew each other, and they were all ostensibly very different, but just the same, they all had that in common.  i don't know whether many of them went on to be kinksters, but i do think there's something that draws like to like.  We all secretly saw ourselves as being different or damaged, and subconsciously recognized and even sought out that trait in others.  i think both nature and nurture play a part in making people kinky (i'm descended on both sides from people with masochistic tendencies) but yes.  i think that childhood trauma makes it more likely.

Is sadism *always* the result of hating your "victim" on some level, while masking it as "love?"

You might turn the question around and ask, is masochism the result of hating yourself on some level? It is for me.  i'm a masochist because i have permanent free-floating feelings of guilt, and being "punished" rids me of them, for a time.  In fact, if i don't get punished, i end up "punishing" myself, at least psychologically.  i despise myself, i feel like i've committed some unknown crime that i deserve to be punished for, and receiving punishment helps me resolve that conflict and find relief.  That's how it is for me, at least.

pam

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 12/6/2011 4:13:35 AM >


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RE: Is the proclivity for BDSM a result of past trauma? - 12/6/2011 3:43:11 PM   
NewHorizions49


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My childhood was pretty awful and it is amazing I survived - almost didn't - but it turned me into a strong, confident, and independent person. It wasn't until after I dealt with all the crap from childhood that I could really trust someone else enough to consider submission and only in submission that I could fully let go and relax.

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RE: Is the proclivity for BDSM a result of past trauma? - 12/6/2011 4:51:45 PM   
sheisreeds


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>Do people who are involved in BDSM, most especially the sadism and masochism aspects, have more emotional and mental "issues" than the general population?

Based on informal statistics of being in the scene, and from mental health stats, I think not. However, it has been noted that a higher number of individuals with PTSD have an interest in BDSM, would not be surprised if this is true for folks with self injury as well (though they are often the same population. Though the number of individuals with these issues are only a teeny tiny fraction of the population at large, the overall increase is not incredibly significant.

>Is a proclivity towards sadism or masochism a result of past (childhood) trauma?

Based on personal experience I do not think so. I was a crazed little masochist before ever having been mistreated or abused. My proclivity for that kind of behavior was a coping mechanism for my trauma, and is also an important part of intimacy for me. Though I think I would have been into BDSM regardless. Also to stay healthy I HAVE to treat BDSM masochism very differently, and will not engage in it all all if I'm slipping into a self destructive mode. PTSD/self injury masochism comes from a place of isolation and self hate, and BDSM masochism comes from the exact opposite self love and communion with my partner. Trauma just complicated things a bit.

>Is subbing to someone always damaging to the ego on some level?

Honestly, I don't really sub anymore, and partially for this reason. Though that comes from my own unhealthy places. There is a piece of me that wants to be obliterated by the will of another. That is not a healthy place to be. Also, it's not submission in my eyes. It's indulging my more unhealthy impulses. I've always been a pure argumentative, sassy, vindictive crazy switch and have practiced with that side of myself more, and am honestly more inclined towards it at this point in my life. So I haven't really spent time on becoming a healthy submissive.

> Is subbing only damaging if humiliation, degradation and debasement are involved?

See I love humiliation, degradation, debasement, and all that stuff, and no it isn't damaging at all. It brings me closer to my partner. It doesn't hurt me. In my relationship "Fuck Off Cunt Face" is another way of saying "I love you".

>Is sadism *always* the result of hating your "victim" on some level, while masking it as "love?"

No, I don't let it come from that place. However, oddly sadism is often easier for me that being nice when it comes to intimacy. I express love best through being mean.

> If a sub lives for humiliation, degradation, objectification, and debasement, is this *always* the result of poor self esteem?

Absolutely not. Nothing is always ;)

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RE: Is the proclivity for BDSM a result of past trauma? - 12/7/2011 2:36:55 AM   
MasterMatt2097


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Do people who are involved in BDSM, most especially the sadism and masochism aspects, have more emotional and mental "issues" than the general population?
I don't see why they would, personally.  I think that certain personality types are drawn towards bdsm, especially the s/m aspect therein, so while you will of course have people with mental issues, but no more than any other subgroup you look at (involved in their church, involved in politics, involved in sports, etc.)

Is a proclivity towards sadism or masochism a result of past (childhood) trauma?
I'm gonna go with "no".  I had a pretty great childhood.  Parents that loved me, shelter, safety, all the basics.  Also, my parents were neither "He burnt down the school?  Well, it happens" or "He got a B?  get the blowtorch and some chicken wire".  They used enough corporal punishment to let me know I'd done wrong, but never overdid it.  And yet, here I am, a sadist by nature.

Is subbing to someone always damaging to the ego on some level?
I can see how it COULD be, but then again, from what I understand, don't most submissives find subbing to be fulfilling, or to give them a sense of security?  Like they can relax now that they've put their decisions in the hands of someone they trust?

Is subbing only damaging if humiliation, degradation and debasement are involved?
I'm a dom, so I don't know about this one...sorry.

Is sadism *always* the result of hating your "victim" on some level, while masking it as "love?"
No.  First, because I truly loved one of my ex-submissives, and I was quite sadistic with her-much to both our enjoyment-, and second, because "always" never happens.

If a sub lives for humiliation, degradation, objectification, and debasement, is this *always* the result of poor self esteem?
Again, no such thing as always.

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RE: Is the proclivity for BDSM a result of past trauma? - 12/7/2011 4:59:43 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterMatt2097

Do people who are involved in BDSM, most especially the sadism and masochism aspects, have more emotional and mental "issues" than the general population?


The ones posting on this forum seem to have.



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RE: Is the proclivity for BDSM a result of past trauma? - 12/7/2011 5:05:24 AM   
angelikaJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Im saying(edit suggesting) if you've had a damaging(edit 2 shouldasaid abusive or violent)traumatic experience you have a 1 in 2 chance to cause trauma.
Since a lot of bdsm is about abuse, maybe there are higher rates of people doing this being fucked up. Most will say here they are not fucked up. While most profiles bitch about people here being fucked up only askin for sex etc.A psycho wont cum on the forum saying he is totally fucked up wacko weird pervert. Or maybe sadism is not abusive? Maybe you like being abused...Maybe it's normal. lol

Butt assumptions are the mother of who?
just a thought...
No I am not changing the subject. I am turning it upside down from another perspective.


By it's nature. abuse is non-consentual.
So the premise that "a lot of bdsm is about abuse" is wholly incorrect.

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RE: Is the proclivity for BDSM a result of past trauma? - 12/7/2011 6:17:41 AM   
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A submissive friend of mine took me to see the movie Secretary. The movie was very exciting for both of us but she said something afterwards that pertains to this thread. "I loved the movie but I hate that they feel like they need to come with something dark and psychological from her past to rationalize why she loves to be submissive. Can't I just be this way because that is who I am?"

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RE: Is the proclivity for BDSM a result of past trauma? - 12/7/2011 1:14:59 PM   
LillyBoPeep


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Well... you could say that that was always just "how she was," too, but her life situation sent her in a weird direction.

She liked structure and rules and delineation of roles (her body language/facial expression when the doctor at the hospital told her "you're free," Mr. Grey = boss, I = secretary) -- but her father was an alcoholic, which certainly took that structure and balance away.
So that messed with her head, but being the type of person who didn't really speak up about much, or really voice her opinions, she turned inward, and found masochism as a way to relieve her pain outside.

It's not a clear "cart before the horse" situation with her -- did the masochism/submission come from the dark, or did the dark come from masochism/submission in a situation where they couldn't be expressed or would be misunderstood, blah blah blah.

Who knows.

I can relate to the character because self-harm (cutting) became a coping mechanism for me when the world started doing too many backflips and I couldn't keep up. But I had masochistic and domination fantasies LOOONNNNGG before I ever started doing that.

< Message edited by LillyBoPeep -- 12/7/2011 1:21:52 PM >


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RE: Is the proclivity for BDSM a result of past trauma? - 12/7/2011 1:55:04 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mazterlock

A submissive friend of mine took me to see the movie Secretary. The movie was very exciting for both of us but she said something afterwards that pertains to this thread. "I loved the movie but I hate that they feel like they need to come with something dark and psychological from her past to rationalize why she loves to be submissive. Can't I just be this way because that is who I am?"

I mentioned this three pages back and was ignored.

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RE: Is the proclivity for BDSM a result of past trauma? - 1/27/2012 4:55:37 PM   
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that word abuse is tricky as one assumes a certain picture going along with it......in my case and possibly others as well, i had a severe early childhood hospital episode which caused some ptsd which i am convinced is at least a partial root of my love for bdsm and especially bondage on the sub side so.......think others in this life who don't remember abuse per se might find some roots if they expand their remembrances of early childhood medical and /or hospital traumas which fly under the subconscious radar for long periods.

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RE: Is the proclivity for BDSM a result of past trauma? - 1/27/2012 5:21:36 PM   
xssve


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Of course it probably is the result of some past trauma, it just doesn't have to be all that dark or profound, e.g. physical abuse - although corporeal punishment has been correlated with later interest in kink - that's just spanking, and most people don't think of that as particularly profound trauma.

It could be abandonment issues: why the hell do I want to keep a bitch leashed up to the foot of the bed?

However, that goes for damn near everything else people do, we all have the same issues, we deal with them as best we can, and in that BDSM is not significantly different from religion or ambition, financial or political, performing, etc., etc., etc.

Life, in short, is traumatic, from the moment you fall out of your nice, warm, cozy nest till you die surrounded by vultures.

Ideally, you work the kinks out the best way you can, with the method of your choice - though sometimes it's thrust upon you - but I happen to think this is a more honest and direct (and fun) way than pointing out motes in your neighbors eye in order to avoid confronting the planks in your own.

It's ironic that some of the worst offenders believe those words to be direct orders from the almighty.

It's an imperfect world, and I figure if you can make somebody else a little less miserable without making yourself too miserable doing it, you're doing pretty good, whatever it is you're doing.


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RE: Is the proclivity for BDSM a result of past trauma? - 1/27/2012 9:03:23 PM   
dublinemma


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I think a lot of people turn to bdsm as a result of past abuse but clearly this is not the case of everybody interested in it.

I don't think it's neccesarily a bad thing. I have issues and use bdsm as a way to deal with them. I think someone said a few posts above me that they are a masochist because they like the punishment due to feelings of guilt etc. I would be the same, being hurt makes me feel better, it's an escape from emotional pain. I used to self-harm and the release I got from that is the same release I get from submitting or being hurt. I think if i stopped being a sub i'd start being a self-harmer again. Therefore, I don't think it's neccessarily a bad thing but maybe not entirely healthy to some. I love the escape, being told what to do, the feeling of peace and calm, no thought's other than to say yes.

In relation to subbing being damaging to the ego, I think that really depends on the person and their mind frame and how the dominant is etc. I do want to be damaged sometimes but anyone I'll allow take me to that place knows how to take me back out of it, as do i, i wouldn't do it if i didn't.

Basically I think some people use it as a coping mechanism and that's fine, as long as they're open with their other half about it and they're stable enough to know what they're able for. But there is no always answer to any of the questions. Yes, sometimes sadists do hate their victims on some level, yes, some subs have very low self-esteem and that's why they like degredation etc etc but by no means is this the case for everyone, like everything really.

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RE: Is the proclivity for BDSM a result of past trauma? - 1/27/2012 9:29:28 PM   
Awareness


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

This topic was prompted by a few threads going around, the "Is BDSM a Choice?" thread and the "Your Perspective" thread.

Do people who are involved in BDSM, most especially the sadism and masochism aspects, have more emotional and mental "issues" than the general population?

Is a proclivity towards sadism or masochism a result of past (childhood) trauma?
In many cases, probably.  However I think it's more complex than that.  I can think of other reasons.

quote:

Is subbing to someone always damaging to the ego on some level?
Implicitly, no.  However the form it takes can be.  Degradation, humiliation, objectification and nullification of identity all strike me as unhealthy practices which can have a profoundly damaging effect upon the submissive's psyche.

quote:

Is sadism *always* the result of hating your "victim" on some level, while masking it as "love?"
No, I think sadism is a product of the dopamine addict who's misunderstood the need for time-out and consequently is driven to increasingly extreme behaviour.  It appears to have much in common with porn addiction.

quote:

If a sub lives for humiliation, degradation, objectification, and debasement, is this *always* the result of poor self esteem?
A damaged psyche, yes.  Characterising it simply as poor self-esteem narrows the range of possible causes.  I wouldn't like to be that specific.


quote:

My opinions on these questions can be summed up fairly easily. First, everyone has issues, since no one gets to have a perfect childhood or lead a perfect life. We all have our baggage.
Our baggage is a product of our experiences and the way we've interpreted those experiences.  Our subsequent behaviour can be vastly different depending upon our internal representation of past events.  Dealing with baggage often requires a reinterpretation of those events and a reframing of our understanding of ourselves.  If baggage drives you to kink, you'd be naive to think of kink as therapy for it.

quote:

I don't think people who practice BDSM necessarily have more baggage than the general population.
I think they do, because the community is largely self-selecting.  Consequently, it'll draw in people with issues because there are advantageous reasons for issue-ridden people to practice BDSM.

quote:

I think this all depends on how you deal with those issues. If you hide behind your issues and never really explore why you are the way you are, than you are going to be a BDSM practitioner who is perhaps dangerous to yourself and others. If you see it as your life's work to resolve your issues (as I do) I think it can enhance your life and aid some of that resolution.
The problem is that fundamentally, the BDSM community has a greater level of dysfunction than vanilla folk.  The principle of social proof virtually guarantees that norms will keep spiralling downwards.  Witness the behaviour on CollarMe wherein the more extreme fucked up sadists consider themselves at the top of the hierarchy and you get idiot subs fainting every time one of these fuckwits posts some bloodletting porn.  Issues on both sides, methinks.

quote:

I do think that those who like extreme sadomasochist play, such as breaking bones, or extreme degradation play, like eating scat (sorry) have some stuff they need to deal with. That these acts are consensual does not make them "sane" to me. But that is my opinion.
See this is the problem.  If you postulate a community founded upon nothing more than moral relativism and disdain for the norm, you effectively create a framework wherein nobody's entitled to criticise broken bones, gutting your sub like a fish or murder.  Anyone who tries to do so will usually come up with some absurd justification which allows them to set a line but fundamentally if your sadist is entitled to cut your skin, he's entitled to cut your femoral artery as well, provided you consent.

Some people try and claim BDSM stops at what is considered legal, but that's a coward's philosophical cop-out.  What this does is substitute the social and legal mores of your society instead of bothering to set some standards of your own.  It's monumentally dishonest.

Personally, I think most people are (A) Too stupid and (B) too afraid that setting a standard may someday infringe upon their kink.  And so you have a community which has essentially no philosophical rationale that allows anyone to set a line but then dares to say that one exists nonetheless.

Personally, I believe a line has to be set.  The principle of consent is not enough.  Indeed, in conventional society, it's not about consent, it's about informed consent which is done when you're in your right mind.

I'm firmly convinced many practitioners fall into the latter category.  And most people are dopamine addicts too addicted to their kink to allow themselves to conceive of anything which may limit their ability to practice it.  Consequently you have a bunch of irresponsible children who have all the reason in the world to close their eyes to anything which might make them uncomfortable and suggest they actually have a responsibility to consider the full impact of what they're doing.

Basically, it's like this.  If you're dominant and you NEED your kink, then you're a slave to it.  Effectively a slave to your own dopamine.  You're directly responding to a craving.  And the idea that someone wields a whip or a knife with a craving behind their actions is something I find disturbing.  It means they're nowhere near as in-control as they'd like everyone to believe.


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Ever notice how fucking annoying most signatures are? - Yes, I do appreciate the irony.

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Is the proclivity for BDSM a result of past trauma? - 1/27/2012 9:59:43 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
I mentioned this three pages back and was ignored.


That's because everyone hates you, Moonie.

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(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 80
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