RE: Atheists have a PR problem (Full Version)

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MissAsylum -> RE: Atheists have a PR problem (12/5/2011 11:41:03 AM)

God doesn't come into human affairs....correct?
There is no need for religious sects and organization....correct?
Came into popularity during the age of enlightenment....correct?

Holder of a masters degree in art here, 50% of which is learning art history, a subject that teaches that religion had a HUGE role in art well up to the 1900s. Art history also has a huge emphasis on the age of enlightenment, during which a rather famous person, Sir Isaac Newton...maybe you've heard of him?...came up with one of the more important tools that somebody like me would ever use: the color wheel. In additon to the color wheel, he was also part of a group of intellectuals that came up with the very notion of Deism and the clockwork theory of God setting everything in motion. Without deism and the age of enlightenment, there wouldn't be a romanticism period that regects those ideal and theology to give way to modern thinking.

Correct?

You see, i know about Deism, i've had it drilled into my head since I was 17. And the thing is, i wasn't talking about the argument in terms of desim, which in its essential form, as bunk all to do with why people may find atheists untrustworthy...which is what this thread and my original statement is about.


So thanks, but i do not need a heads up about anything. I'd appreciate that you not assume that i do not know about something until you ask me in the future.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAsylum

What difference would it make if I repeated it or not? I've already pissed off my family with it more than once, just from repeating back what they said.

I've said one point, followed by "Correct?" after each one to ensure i am understanding them. When i repeat it back, they get upset.

If people would get made for me using a point blank approach to breaking down their logic, let them.

Okay fine, I was just trying to give you a heads-up.

Somebody doesn't know what Deism is and the argument is ridiculous when stated in terms of Deism.

Other than that, have a nice day. [:D]

K.





Kirata -> RE: Atheists have a PR problem (12/5/2011 2:56:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MissAsylum

You see, i know about Deism, i've had it drilled into my head since I was 17. And the thing is, i wasn't talking about the argument in terms of desim

Oh fuck, I've got you mixed up with Hippiekinkster (please don't take that personally [8|]). The post of yours that I responded to was quoting him.

Ouch. Mea culpa.

K.




GotSteel -> RE: Atheists have a PR problem (12/5/2011 6:57:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather

Nope. A couple of idiots blathering idiocies. What's your issue with that?

I think you're a little too sensitive on this issue. Personally I'd say that's a great recruiting video for atheism, after all, if theists are that stupid I wouldn't want to associate with them in any way.?


I know it's not the same up there, try to keep in mind that the US is your crazy religious neighbor. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so common. Atheists have a PR problem because there are far to many of those kind of people explaining what atheists are.




vincentML -> RE: Atheists have a PR problem (12/6/2011 8:22:30 AM)

quote:

Just because they relied on training does not, in any way, mean emotions did not play a factor in their decisions. You havent proven your point with those examples.


So, you are saying here that you participated in a code blue where protocol was in part altered because of emotions of the doctors/nurses??? I hope to avoid that hospital.

quote:

Every decision we make is based, in some part, on emotions.

Not at all the original suggestion you made that I was dismissing religious converts who possibly made their decisions rationally. So, really what's your point? It seems confused.

quote:

Im still waiting on you to prove that wrong.

You conveniently ignore the example of Capt Sullenberger ditching flight 1549. You have evidence that his decisions were based on emotions in any part?

The flaming on this thread is discouraging, btw.




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Atheists have a PR problem (12/6/2011 10:08:47 AM)

I am reading a wonderful book right now, dealing with decision making and rational and irrational thinking.  Here is a review:

Nov
22 Thinking Fast and Slow, Intuition Problems, Moneyball, and the Four Step Method [image]http://foresightimprovement.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/reggie-jackson.jpg[/image] In his fascinating new book Thinking, Fast and Slow, Nobel Prize winning psychologist Daniel Kahneman explores the various ways our judgment becomes distorted when confronted with questions and conditions of uncertainty. Based on thirty years of experiments conducted with his late collaborator, Amos Tversky, Kahneman sets out to teach us about how and why we think the way we do. He begins by telling a story of two systems. System 1 is Fast Thinking, our mode of thinking that is intuitive, that operates quickly with very little voluntary control. System 1 is at work when we drive a car on an empty road, detect hostility in a voice, and understand simple sentences. They are automatic processes, requiring little or no effort. System 2 is Slow Thinking, our mode of thinking that requires concentration and effort. It’s responsible for complex thinking and computation and is at work, for example, when we fill out a tax form, park in a narrow spot or focus our attention on details. It is no doubt at work while writing a blog. These two systems influence each other and have salient traits that shape the way we think: System 1 cannot be turned off and System 2 is lazy. Through these two systems Kahneman analyzes the errors in our thinking, and explores the cognitive biases that limit and mar our judgments. His discussion is rich and insightful, and I cannot do it justice by simply summarizing his arguments here, but the gist of it is that our intuition (System1) is flawed even when assisted by System 2, and is influenced by three heuristic biases:
  • Representativeness – an example of this is when we are insensitive to probabilities of outcome because of stereotypes.
  • Availability – when we determine probability based on the ease by which instances or occurrences are brought to mind. An example of this is when we assess the rate of middle-aged heart attacks by recalling the people we know who have experienced one.
  • Adjustment and Anchoring – an example of this is when you determine how much you will pay for a house based on the listing price.
Kahneman’s goal for his work is to “enrich the vocabulary that people use” when thinking about the way the mind operates. He admits, however, that his decades of research have not improved his own performance. “My intuitive thinking is just as prone to overconfidence, extreme predictions and a tendency to underestimate how long to complete a task as it was before I made a study of these issues.”  His book is exceedingly important for the manner in which it explains the difficulty of making good decisions for many types of problems. Michael Lewis, in his book and the movie, Moneyball, has used Kahneman’s work to help understand the success of Billy Beane in baseball. Those techniques, originally developed by Bill James, are now widely used throughout the sport. In the recent issue of Vanity Fair – in which he discusses Kahneman, James and Beane – he states, “Bill James was clearly troubled that the human mind settled so easily on false explanations when the truth was readily at hand.” It struck me that the “Four Step Method” can be applied as a simple template to help improve the decision making process, as described by Kahneman in his book. This improvement is achieved through the writing down of the problem and the result of the decision in those types of decisions which people frequently decide incorrectly. The Four Step process provides the practitioner with an overview of his or her biases, and the trends in his or her thinking. Writing down the key aspects of the process
  • Helps fix the ideas more firmly in our moind
  • Eliminates errors due to faulty memory and biases
  • Provides improved results with very little effort.
Happy Thanksgiving!




tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists have a PR problem (12/6/2011 10:12:24 AM)

quote:

So, you are saying here that you participated in a code blue where protocol was in part altered because of emotions of the doctors/nurses??? I hope to avoid that hospital.


Then you should avoid all hospitals.

Conclusion

The public often views doctors as being superhuman and believes that tragic events do not truly impact them. There is an assumption that physicians are somehow "trained" to cope with CODE situations. I discovered that this was not even close to reality. Within the medical education system there is the assumption that all medical students are capable of adequately handling high-stress CODE situations. The impact of the potential stress experienced from participating in or running CODES, combined with the stress of medical training was not addressed within medical school or residency training. Studies on other professions have shown that chronic exposure to stress can be a factor in the development of Acute Stress Disorder and even posttraumatic stress symptoms. Traumatic events can be detrimental to someone s personal or professional life.

There is a need for medical students and residents to be educated as to what to expect during CODE situations and afterward. Furthermore, students and residents need to have more positive role models that can demonstrate functional coping skills in order to develop healthier coping mechanisms. This would help to prevent the dysfunctional, maladaptive coping strategies so frequently adopted, and too often accepted as "normal behavior" by those in the medical community.


http://www.aaets.org/arts/art95.htm

Its quite a fallacy to believe someone can set aside all their emotions. It simply cannot be done.

quote:

Not at all the original suggestion you made that I was dismissing religious converts who possibly made their decisions rationally. So, really what's your point? It seems confused.


My point is the same. See above.

quote:

You conveniently ignore the example of Capt Sullenberger ditching flight 1549. You have evidence that his decisions were based on emotions in any part?


60 minutes did a series of segments on that crash. Words like panic were used.

"I just can't put it on yet. My uniform was in shreds, soaking wet. I had a different story in the back of that airplane, and mine was more violent and more - the uniform just went to pieces. I can't explain. I'm just not ready to put it on yet," Welsh replied.

"I had some panic in the back. And I got out of my seat and I calmed everyone down. I said, 'It's okay.' I said, 'We might have lost one engine. We'll circle around.' And so I thought well everything is okay, and then I heard the old 'Brace for impact,'" Welsh remembered.

Asked what her reaction was hearing those words, Welsh said, "Terror, sheer terror."

"According to someone in the pilots' union, you were still in total professional mode once you got off that airplane," Couric said.

"Well, I may have looked like it, but I was in shock," Sullenberger admitted. "I just crashed an airplane."



http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/02/08/60minutes/main4783586.shtml


"It was the worst sickening pit of your stomach, falling through the floor feeling I've ever felt in my life. I knew immediately it was very bad," Sullenberger told correspondent Katie Couric.

"Did you think, 'How are we gonna get ourselves out of this?'" Couric asked.

"No. My initial reaction was one of disbelief. 'I can't belief this is happening. This doesn't happen to me,'" he remembered.

Asked what he meant by that, Sullenberger said, "I meant that I had this expectation that my career would be one in which I didn't crash an airplane."

And he had to keep his cool. "The physiological reaction I had to this was strong, and I had to force myself to use my training and force calm on the situation," he said.


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/02/08/60minutes/main4783580.shtml

He wasnt without emotions, he wasnt without feelings. Why would you consider he was? Fear, panic, shock... nothing more or less than what a Physician would go through in a code.

Training doesnt negate feelings or emotions. It merely allows a person to focus on the task at hand.





kalikshama -> RE: Atheists have a PR problem (12/6/2011 10:32:15 AM)

Here's another:

Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking

In his landmark bestseller The Tipping Point, Malcolm Gladwell redefined how we understand the world around us. Now, in Blink, he revolutionizes the way we understand the world within.

Blink is a book about how we think without thinking, about choices that seem to be made in an instant-in the blink of an eye-that actually aren't as simple as they seem. Why are some people brilliant decision makers, while others are consistently inept? Why do some people follow their instincts and win, while others end up stumbling into error? How do our brains really work-in the office, in the classroom, in the kitchen, and in the bedroom? And why are the best decisions often those that are impossible to explain to others?

In Blink we meet the psychologist who has learned to predict whether a marriage will last, based on a few minutes of observing a couple; the tennis coach who knows when a player will double-fault before the racket even makes contact with the ball; the antiquities experts who recognize a fake at a glance. Here, too, are great failures of "blink": the election of Warren Harding; "New Coke"; and the shooting of Amadou Diallo by police.

Blink reveals that great decision makers aren't those who process the most information or spend the most time deliberating, but those who have perfected the art of "thin-slicing"-filtering the very few factors that matter from an overwhelming number of variables.




HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Atheists have a PR problem (12/6/2011 12:29:54 PM)

quote:

Its quite a fallacy to believe someone can set aside all their emotions. It simply cannot be done.
Your whole argument is the fallacy < see ignoratio elenchi>. Whether or not people are able to make decisions in which emotions played no part has nothing to do with anything under discussion, so why are you continuing to yammer away about it?

Perhaps because vincentML is correct when he said: "It seems confused."




Fightdirecto -> RE: Atheists have a PR problem (12/6/2011 2:12:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
I think the true message of the survey, joe, is that christians, at least those surveyed, can be remarkably close minded and bigoted.  They are obviously also afraid of opposing viewpoints.  No surprise there.

Oddly enough, I have encountered atheists (granted a small minority of atheists and normally those who are recent converts to atheism) who can be remarkably close minded and bigoted when it comes to Christians, Jew, Moslems, Wiccans, Pagans - in short, anyone who is religious.

My favorite was the one who claimed that belief in any form of religion was. ipso facto, proof of mental illness and all who expressed any religious belief should be institutionalized until they were "cured of their delusions".




VideoAdminDelta -> RE: Atheists have a PR problem (12/6/2011 2:24:58 PM)

For anyone who missed it, here is what TwentyOne has posted on another thread:

quote:

ORIGINAL: ModTwentyOne
Okay, I'll be more specific.

Discussing someone else's actions, instead of the topic, is not allowed.
Pointing out to someone else that they are off topic is, in itself, off topic and not allowed.
Discussing moderator actions on a thread is off topic and is not allowed.


In light of this, several posts have been removed from the thread. 




kalikshama -> RE: Atheists have a PR problem (12/6/2011 5:56:01 PM)

Marvelous!

I will enjoy P&R so much more without all the "You're a liar!" "No, you're a liar!" dreck.

</tangent>

Tazzy - you said earlier that you had a problem with the study but IIRC, you never said what. Please elucidate.







tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists have a PR problem (12/6/2011 5:57:57 PM)

Standing by!




tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists have a PR problem (12/6/2011 6:08:14 PM)

119 surveyed avg age 19.7, college students. one study was only around 60, around the same age group. While the number of US who were surveyed was a avg age of around 40's, and only included in the initial survey. The sample size themselves also bother me. College students took these surveys for extra credit... not that its a bad thing. There were no mention that I could find about the back ground of any of the students surveyed. No clue where they were from.




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Atheists have a PR problem (12/6/2011 6:24:02 PM)

Umm.    This is the link that Kalik posted.  The guy actually conducted about 6 surveys in making his conclusions.  Some of them were students for extra credit, others were from " a broad and diverse national sample of 351 American participants . . . from a paid subject pool administered by a [US] based survey company."

http://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~will/Gervais%20et%20al-%20Atheist%20Distrust.pdf
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

119 surveyed avg age 19.7, college students. one study was only around 60, around the same age group. While the number of US who were surveyed was a avg age of around 40's, and only included in the initial survey. The sample size themselves also bother me. College students took these surveys for extra credit... not that its a bad thing. There were no mention that I could find about the back ground of any of the students surveyed. No clue where they were from.




tazzygirl -> RE: Atheists have a PR problem (12/6/2011 6:27:43 PM)

Thats the one I was speaking about.

Study 1 We drew a broad and diverse national sample of 351 American participants (Age range  18 – 82 years, M  43.9; 59% female)

The rest, college students, no idea from where, avg age around 19




Iamsemisweet -> RE: When Mods lie (12/7/2011 8:04:38 AM)

Bye Heather. It's been real.




LaTigresse -> RE: When Mods lie (12/7/2011 8:06:44 AM)

That would be rather hypocritical of the CM staff since it is simply a post showing facts.

This whole place is run on double and triple standards. Even I can see it and I tend to be rather oblivious.




kalikshama -> RE: When Mods lie (12/7/2011 8:14:18 AM)

quote:

Discussing someone else's actions, instead of the topic, is not allowed.
Pointing out to someone else that they are off topic is, in itself, off topic and not allowed.
Discussing moderator actions on a thread is off topic and is not allowed.


I agree there's a real disconnect between what's allowed and what's enforced.

I wouldn't call it lying, though.

Perhaps someone should start another thread for this discussion.




LaTigresse -> RE: When Mods lie (12/7/2011 8:16:43 AM)

Perhaps they should.




HeatherMcLeather -> RE: When Mods lie (12/7/2011 8:26:47 AM)

Perhaps they did, but it was deleted.




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