RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (Full Version)

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angelikaJ -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/24/2011 6:04:12 AM)

Sam,


From this blog, http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2010/11/seven-points-on-rape-prevention-and.html , there is this:

"2. Rape prevention tips are almost never effective against partners and friends. You can be as twitchy as you like on the sidewalk or in the parking lot, but there's a 65% chance (of reported rapes, so you can kinda imagine) that it's the person you come home and sleep next to that you have to worry about.

Anecdotally, all the victims of sexual violence that I know personally were victimized by someone they already knew, in their home or their attacker's. (And none of them have formally reported it, because of the perceived--probably real--impossibility of going to the police with a story about "I've had sex with this guy lots of times and I was in his house and he didn't leave any marks and I didn't call 911 but it was rape." All this Stranger Danger bullshit about avoiding parked vans and keeping your keys in your hand wouldn't have done shit for a single rape victim that I know."
(emphasis mine)

Another of her posts from a different article:

"Redefine "rape" in the public discourse.
Jump-out-of-the-bushes stranger rape is largely the purview of the "just monsters." But it's also far, far less common than boyfriend-won't-take-no rape. When we call the second kind "gray rape" or "date rape" or mutter even more half-assed things about how it's kinda sorta violating her boundaries and kinda sorta not very nice, we let that boyfriend feel a lot better about himself. I've heard more than one rape victim comment that her rapist felt he was doing her a favor by protecting her from all the real rapists out there.

When we treat rapes between acquaintances and in relationships as rape-rape--in the news, in the legal system, in our conversations--we reinforce the idea that they're just as wrong and shocking as jumping out of the bushes. When we can call domestic violence "violence" without qualification, we send the message that people who do this aren't just sorta criminals. "You have no more right to your partner's body than you do to a random stranger" is a message our society needs."
http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2011/01/supply-side-rape-prevention.html

She has done some other excellent articles:
Consent
Rape Culture
Defending the Indefensible

Sam,
As I have read your posts and responses to other people to me it seems that there is a "me vs them" trend and you are bent on finding the piece of information that will enable the other side to see your point ... and perhaps you are feeling that from the other side as well?
What is troubling to me about that is that as this adversarial relationship continues it has become strikingly clear to me that no matter who wins or loses, our society is paying a very dear price.
The question shouldn't be whose statistics are more right; it should be "What can I do to make this better?".

You want things to improve for your gender; for both genders?: you could join the organisation Men Can Stop Rape.


edit: clarity



LafayetteLady -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/24/2011 10:18:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr


quote:

ORIGINAL: xXLithiumXx
I don't know about falling short. In my state, if you imply that you will do physical damage someone, then you have committed an act of terroristic threatening. While that is not a felony, and it certainly wouldn't stop them from actually doing it, it may give them a reason to pause and consider their actions more fully in the future.


The portion in red is probably accurate. However, I would also add that sometimes, "imply" or "implication" becomes a legal grey area. Now, let me be a "lawyer" for a moment:

"Who would you like to smack in the face?"

"Who are you going to smack in the face?"

No doubt it's a splitting of hair but one is desire and one is intent. One is a "dream". One is a threat. It's the kind of hair splitting that defense lawyers do because of the way our system is set up.

I am not saying that what these young men did is right. I am saying that it falls short of legal action. In todays climate of "Men must be wrong", if there was a prosecution possible, these guys would already stand charged. Even if not, I've seen prosecutors file charges to "send a message" so even that isn't the best barometer of actual criminal activity.

Peace and comfort,

Michael


You are correct in that it falls short of LEGAL action.  However, we are talking about the action the school can take, which is quite different.  The school has a code of conduct, as does the national frat (I assume).  Both have obviously determined that the "survey" violated that code of conduct and have taken action.

On the part of the national fraternity, they have determined that this particular chapter can not maintain their standard of conduct.  This is not a first incident, but the last straw.  The chapter has been closed in the past, put on probation in the past.  The national fraternity needs to protect all the chapters and this one is causing them too much trouble.

To Sam:

The frat boys who are claiming to not have been involved are also complaining about having to find alternate housing.  If you are willing to lose the roof over your head to protect your friend, you are a fool.  You need to learn the difference between what the law protects and doesn't.  The law protects the school in this case, not the student.

It has been discussed multiple times before, but obviously you missed it.  Was the internet system this fraternity using provided by the school?  If not, it is no different than your employer providing it, and you can't have any expectation of privacy, even if you are using an indepent mail system, like yahoo.

A drunken freshman?  The drinking age is 21, a freshman is typically 18.  His behavior has, in the school's opinion, impinged on the freedom of others, and if he is "begging" others to protect him, he obviously isn't mature enough to deal with consequences to his actions.

You have gone from at some point trying to present a legitimate argument, to spouting off like the old boy network.  Being drunk is not an excuse for abhorrent behavior.  Being part of a frat doesn't grant anyone the right to a pass.  Being the president of the frat means you should be setting an example.  This frat prez is complaining about losing his "home" because he isn't mature enough to take action.

For the record, *we* are not "convicting" anyone "in absentia."  *We* are discussing whether we believe the university took appropriate action.  The university has taken the action they deem necessary.  You don't like it?  Don't go there, don't send them donations.  Hazing was originally deemed as "youthful pranks," until they realized how it was hurting people.

Really Sam, time to get a grip on reality.



DaddySatyr -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/24/2011 12:21:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
You are correct in that it falls short of LEGAL action.  However, we are talking about the action the school can take, which is quite different.  The school has a code of conduct, as does the national frat (I assume).  Both have obviously determined that the "survey" violated that code of conduct and have taken action.


Just as a note: If you check post #33 and #35, you'll find that I've been talking about other legal, non-prosecutorial options since the first post I made on this thread.



Peace and comfort,



Michael



samboct -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/24/2011 1:20:06 PM)

Hi LL

I'm beginning to really question the hate crimes limitations on speech. I think this thread has shown how quickly speech can become criminalized- it's a slippery slope, and it leads to prosecuting people for their thoughts. Its clear that in the search for a hate crime- whether or not one actually exists- both second amendment rights and privacy rights are getting trampled. Not to mention that the university is showing a remarkable lack of spine in this matter. With respect to your comments about drunkenness and freshman- yep, you're right- but I also have a lot of trouble with a drinking age of 21, but the ability to be drafted and get killed for your country at 18. Doesn't sit well with me- never has. Feel free to change drunken to foolish, and we can table the discussion about whether alcohol was a factor or not.

We have very different definitions of loyalty. I've made sacrifices for friends and consider it a character trait I'm proud of- so do my friends. I'll give the nod to the kids who won't rat someone out, and remind you that the MSM does have a tendency to distort peoples interviews on occasion. However, I can respect your opinion in this case- just don't happen to agree.

In terms of education- having taught some in college, I can tell you first hand that there's a big difference in the maturity of freshman and seniors. Still seems to me that the college has an obligation to educate the kid, first and foremost. Students get expelled for crimes- they get disciplined for poor judgement. Clearly, this kid is perhaps a bit more of a challenge to educate than some others, but that's what colleges get paid the big bucks for, isn't it? Had he actually raped someone- well, then yes, he should lose his chance at an education at this institution- but for sending out a stupid question? Doesn't seem like the punishment fits the crime.

Hi Angelika

This thread has been something of a painful and disheartening learning experience. I wholeheartedly agree with your conclusion- that we need to work as a society to reduce sexual violence.

Here's my summary- along with a bit of history on the subject...

30 years ago, there was a very similar debate between feminists, (largely populated by lesbians) and the rest of the Brandeis campus concerning violence toward women. The feminists were up in arms about the one good party at the school, where joints were thrown from rooftops, and a porno film was shown. Most of the campus attended- both men and women, and there was more sex on campus that night than probably in the 3 months prior- maybe more. Both men and women had a good time and enjoyed themselves-but the feminists did not. So they tried legal means to stop the party- they got the town of Waltham to ban the movie that was going to be shown. The students running the party responded by not announcing the movie. Then the feminists began phoning in bomb threats, and thats when the administration reluctantly decided to shut the party down. Since Brandeis was well known not to be a party school, this didn't do well attracting new students and certainly lead to a fair amount of anger at campus feminists.

The Brandeis feminists then had a very similar mantra to what a number of posters on this thread-
1) that no means no-
2) rape is a crime that affects women, perpetrated by men
3) That convincing men that many of them will be engaging in criminal activity when they have sex with women, and that men should be careful lest they go to jail.

My concerns back then:
1) Rape is a special case as a crime- it has no objective proof. A woman who has been raped can have less physical damage than a woman who enjoys rough sex- and this website should provide ample proof of that!
2) By treating men as criminals, there is an automatic adversarial relationship that's going to take place. Rather than engage men as a force to help prevent rape, men are forced onto the sidelines while women take charge.
3) Rape is a complex issue and cannot be easily reduced to simple litmus tests in all cases. While stranger rape is black and white, acquaintance rape is far from cut and dried.

What I have learned from this thread...

1) Many women still view rape as a simple crime which can and should be solved using the legal system.
2) Even using an example from my own life, at some personal cost, did not cause these women to rethink their position.
3) That women continue to want to dominate the discussion around rape, excluding men, unless those men are in lockstep with their own positions. This is an ideological strait jacket and is clearly one of the major factors in why there has been no progress on this subject in three decades. In short, there's been great consensus building, but no mechanism to point out that the consensus is wrong.
4) That people on the front lines in the legal system acknowledge that rape is a complex problem and is not amenable to a legal solution, but this knowledge has not made it into the social consciousness.
5) That there has been too little scholarship on the issue of how to move forward to reduce sexual violence.
6) That we still do not have a good handle on the true magnitude of the problem. Like you, I recognize that rape is an under reported crime. Some of the anecdotal evidence presented suggests that using the number of convictions of stranger rapists does indeed present a skewed picture, but unfortunately, the studies aimed at quantifying the number of acquaintance rapes are deeply flawed- the studies I saw didn't seem to have a way to DISPROVE their hypothesis and thus need to be discarded. Unfortunately, they continue to dominate the cultural discussion.
7) That if the actual number of rapes is indeed an order of magnitude higher than convicted stranger rapes and current acquaintance rapes- then our penal system cannot deal with the influx of inmates this represents.
8) That most do not recognize that the debate about the number of rapes creates a challenge for the legal system, to which it has responded by raising the burden of proof to the point that it presents a very high barrier to obtaining convictions. This leads to the continued notion that the victim is on trial, not the rapist. More surety and better data with wide scientific and societal acceptance on the nature of rape would lead to higher conviction rates for rapists.

Suggestions to move forward:

1) Well designed studies to quantify the problem.
2) Acknowledge that the current zero tolerance for rape campaign has been a failure and needs drastic overhaul.
3) Acknowledge that acquaintance rape cannot be dealt with on a solely legal basis, that education has been a critically overlooked component. By its nature, acquaintance rape is complex, and cannot be dealt with by simple litmus tests.
4) Toss out existing rape crisis centers and education which is based on criminalizing men and start with a clean slate.
5) Men need to be incorporated into the educational process from the beginning, and with an equal voice.
6) Reinvigorate academic institutions to study the problem and push for additional scholarship that does not have a feminist bias. We cannot right past wrongs with current education, we can only provide a better environment for men and women to communicate more clearly so that the crime of rape is prevented, rather than punished.


To all posters on this thread who have responded to me...

This has been a contentious thread for me, and I fear at times I have crossed the line and responded with anger when I should not have. I am human after all, but this was an error and I ask you to please accept my apologies if you felt personally attacked by my posts. Allow me to offer all of you my wishes for a happy holiday season.


Cheers,

Sam




DaddySatyr -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/24/2011 1:41:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
1) Rape is a special case as a crime- it has no objective proof. A woman who has been raped can have less physical damage than a woman who enjoys rough sex- and this website should provide ample proof of that!


Oh my God! NO!!! Rape is not about physical damage in many cases. It's about psychological damage. It's about some victims never being able to form "normal" relations as a result of the psychological and emotional damage. I am not saying that there's no physical damage. I'm saying that's not the over-whelming issue. I've been shot, blown up, knifed, lost fingertips. I healed, physically. Rape is another issue, entirely.

"no objective proof"? Seriously? I grant that that may be true in a good number of cases but, the psychological signs are almost always present and easily recognizable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct
3) That women continue to want to dominate the discussion around rape, excluding men, unless those men are in lockstep with their own positions. This is an ideological strait jacket and is clearly one of the major factors in why there has been no progress on this subject in three decades. In short, there's been great consensus building, but no mechanism to point out that the consensus is wrong.


Cheers,

Sam


You're right, here. This is one of those issues where men are treated like if they don't have a womb, they're not allowed to have an opinion.

As I pointed out, there are plenty of men that have been raped and I would hasten to suggest that the number of men who don't report rape is a greater percentage than the number of ladies who don't (Relax, ladies. I said percentage ). It's tough to take up the banner for only some victims while excluding the valid opinion of others who have experienced the same shame, emotional conflict, and difficulty with everyday life.



Peace and comfort,



Michael



tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/24/2011 2:14:29 PM)

Sam

1) that sexual violence and violence against women more generally is a tool of social control used to keep women in a subordinate position to men, and

2) that women need to do something that aids victims of sexual violence to become “survivors” of violence instead of victims

Do you agree or disagree?

Satyr,


quote:

You're right, here. This is one of those issues where men are treated like if they don't have a womb, they're not allowed to have an opinion.


I feel the same way about abortion. However, I would feel that way about a woman with a womb who said there is no such thing as rape within the marriage... so your point is off base.

quote:

As I pointed out, there are plenty of men that have been raped and I would hasten to suggest that the number of men who don't report rape is a greater percentage than the number of ladies who don't (Relax, ladies. I said percentage ). It's tough to take up the banner for only some victims while excluding the valid opinion of others who have experienced the same shame, emotional conflict, and difficulty with everyday life.


I agree plenty have been raped. We are up to 20 at Penn State. I have cared for a few male rape victoms... the injuries were incredible, the psychological effects were devastating. Two often told me, "Now I know what a woman feels" (meaning when she was raped). I dont expect men to understand the utter feeling of helplessness, the fear, the angry, and when its someone we know, the feelings of betrayal.

Do some men know? Sure do. Some men are raped in jails. Some men were raped as POW's. Some even as teens in the hazing of fraternities. And Some as young boys in boarding schools. Some at the hands of familily, friends, coaches, strangers. I dont recall anyone discounting these things.

I have spoken to men who have been raped. A rape crisis center is open to them too. They are embarrassed, humiliated, afraid of being viewed as gay if they report, afraid of the same stigma that women are afraid of.. and that is of being blamed themselves.

I will state that men are typically more likely to be violently raped or drug raped rather than date raped, but date rape for a man can still occur.

Im curious, have I missed anything, or are these your understandings as well?



angelikaJ -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/24/2011 2:19:17 PM)

Sam,

What you seem to be unaware of regarding rape crisis centers is that they generally don't push reporting because they know women don't; instead they offer support; unqualified, and unconditional.
You are trying to demonize the only help for women there is based on erroneous information.

I agree with education; but I believe in the instance of "acquaintance" or "date" rape it has to begin with this premise as mentioned before:
"When we treat rapes between acquaintances and in relationships as rape-rape--in the news, in the legal system, in our conversations--we reinforce the idea that they're just as wrong and shocking as jumping out of the bushes. When we can call domestic violence "violence" without qualification, we send the message that people who do this aren't just sorta criminals. "You have no more right to your partner's body than you do to a random stranger" is a message our society needs." (emphasis mine)
http://pervocracy.blogspot.com/2011/01/supply-side-rape-prevention.html

And I can't see how you would disagree with this from the same entry:

"Treat men like people.
Very often, men are talked about like they're animals who can't control themselves sexually. Women are taught how to work around men like they're a force of nature, like they can never be trusted. Men are taught that it's in their nature to take whatever they can get when it comes to sex. Again, the problem isn't just that it's wrong, but that some men will take these messages to heart, and believe that decency isn't expected of them. (There's also a secondary problem that people who aren't men may believe they could never be rapists because that's a man thing.) [underline mine]

I would like to live in a world where rape is always treated as an exception. Where the phrasing isn't "a man lost control of himself and" but "a person decided to." Where it's believed that a man's natural instinct is to cooperate with others for mutual survival, rather than to spread the seed at all costs. Where anti-rape activism never falls into "men vs. women" but is quite clearly "society vs. rape." Where men aren't let off the hook when they rape, and also where men are credited with generally not wanting to in the first place." (emphasis mine)


And whether or not a woman has physical injuries (and if she resists she very well may... or very well may be dead) the other damage is quantifiable.

The damage is real and recovering from it is not as easy as healing from broken bones, or gaping physical wounds which once stitched do heal fairly quickly.

For women who end up with PTSD it means a long time dealing with panic, insomnia, hyper-vigilance and even flashbacks if they are triggered and the trigger is as likely to be a sound or a scent as it is something like a touch.



DaddySatyr -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/24/2011 2:33:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I feel the same way about abortion. However, I would feel that way about a woman with a womb who said there is no such thing as rape within the marriage... so your point is off base.


My point is most definitely not "off base" and that very attitude is what I was trying to point out; just because I don't have a vagina doesn't mean I don't know what it is to be raped. Your assertion that just because someone has a penis and doesn't broadcast the fact that they've been raped that their opinion is not worth listening to is pure, un-diluted bullshit and misandry.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I agree plenty have been raped. We are up to 20 at Penn State. I have cared for a few male rape victoms... the injuries were incredible, the psychological effects were devastating. Two often told me, "Now I know what a woman feels" (meaning when she was raped). I dont expect men to understand the utter feeling of helplessness, the fear, the angry, and when its someone we know, the feelings of betrayal.

Do some men know? Sure do. Some men are raped in jails. Some men were raped as POW's. Some even as teens in the hazing of fraternities. And Some as young boys in boarding schools. Some at the hands of familily, friends, coaches, strangers. I dont recall anyone discounting these things.




... or by their wives

By assuming that someone doesn't know from whence they speak, you continually discounted their opinion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
I have spoken to men who have been raped. A rape crisis center is open to them too. They are embarrassed, humiliated, afraid of being viewed as gay if they report, afraid of the same stigma that women are afraid of.. and that is of being blamed themselves.

I will state that men are typically more likely to be violently raped or drug raped rather than date raped, but date rape for a man can still occur.

Im curious, have I missed anything, or are these your understandings as well?


My feelings are that there has been an assumption, by many of the ladies, that an opinion from a penis owner doesn't really matter. I've seen out-right dismissal and discourteousness.

Rape is an issue that affects both sexes. If we discount the men who are raped (in keeping with the general theme of this thread), it is an issue perpetrated by men on women and like it or not, women are going to have to let men into the discussion and listen to them if we are going to make a dent in reducing its horrible occurrances.



Peace and comfort,



Michael



tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/24/2011 2:34:27 PM)

http://goqnotes.com/296/male-rape-victim-shares-his-story/

http://www.hopeforhealing.org/male.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/07/29/male-rape-victims-sexual-violence-towards-men-_n_913223.html

http://www.aftersilence.org/male-survivors.php

http://www.refusingtokill.net/rape/malerapinthearmy.htm

Some sites for those who may need them.




tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/24/2011 2:36:48 PM)

quote:

My feelings are that there has been an assumption, by many of the ladies, that an opinion from a penis owner doesn't really matter. I've seen out-right dismissal and discourteousness.

Rape is an issue that affects both sexes. If we discount the men who are raped (in keeping with the general theme of this thread), it is an issue perpetrated by men on women and like it or not, women are going to have to let men into the discussion and listen to them if we are going to make a dent in reducing its horrible occurrances.


You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.. that doesnt mean we have to agree with them.

No one here has stated, in any shape or form, that men do not get raped.



DaddySatyr -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/24/2011 2:38:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
No one here has stated, in any shape or form, that men do not get raped.


Again, you miss the point. Plenty here have dismissed opinions based on gender and assumption. That was my point.



tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/24/2011 2:46:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
No one here has stated, in any shape or form, that men do not get raped.


Again, you miss the point. Plenty here have dismissed opinions based on gender and assumption. That was my point.


The two men who are posting to this thread, instead of addressing the facts that you now, finally, decide to bring up, have been more interested in dismissing the number and the definition of rape.

I and others have all agreed men can definitely be raped.

What I dont agree with is the dismissive attitude that "boys will be boys".
What I dont agree with is that rape isnt as frequent as the reports.
What I dont agree with is that a rape cannot occur without violence.
What I dont agree with is that rape cannot occur without physical violence.
What I dont agree with is that mental torment isnt violence.

I seem to disagree on many points with your assertions.



DaddySatyr -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/24/2011 2:57:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
What I dont agree with is the dismissive attitude that "boys will be boys".
What I dont agree with is that rape isnt as frequent as the reports.
What I dont agree with is that a rape cannot occur without violence.
What I dont agree with is that rape cannot occur without physical violence.
What I dont agree with is that mental torment isnt violence.

I seem to disagree on many points with your assertions.



Some of these are a bit difficult to understand because of the wording so, allow me to re-state and see if I get it right ...

I have never posted anything near "boys will be boys"
I never posted that rape isn't as frequent as the reports. I said that some kinds of rape are under-reported and some are over-reported.
I never said said that a rape couldn't occur without physical violence. I said that this case (one that is about written words) did not include violence and I don't believe words can ever constitute violence.

You have (at least once), mistated my position and I can only assume that it was in an attempt to discredit my opinion. I have been courteous to you and accorded you respect that, at times, you didn't deserve.

In view of this, I'm almost pleased that we disagree.



Peace and comfort,



Michael



tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/24/2011 3:47:01 PM)

Those were not solely "your" positions... some were heavily implied.

quote:

I never said said that a rape couldn't occur without physical violence. I said that this case (one that is about written words) did not include violence and I don't believe words can ever constitute violence.


quote:

quote:

I don't accept your premise that violence can be present; absent a physical act. I guess I could be wrong but, I am almost positive that a physical act is the only thing that can be violent.



Mental abuse is considered violence as well. PTSD is a very real diagnosis and can be caused by feeling you are being targeted as a potential victim.


http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=3967886



post #97

quote:

Men can be raped just like women. Men dont report it as often. Maybe we should start a rape your man day. Interesting concept. After all, its just sex, why should it matter that a woman can force her way into a man's ass, tell him how much he loves it, to stop denying how turned on he is, what a fucking little cum dumpster he is and how she will enjoy bragging about it to her friends, maybe even arrange a party with him as the man of the hour later with all her girl friends.

Why are women so passionate about ensuring the facts of rape are heard? Because the lies of the past are frighteningly real.

She asked for it.

She really wanted it.

She didnt fight me.

She didnt say no.

She drank too much to know, but I know she really wanted it.

She is my wife, I own her.

We had sex before.

She had sex with three of my friends.

Everyone knows she sleeps around.

She is the town slut.

She is a whore.

She is a cock tease.

Want to change all those "she"s to "he"s, be my guest, they are just as appropriate.

All of these are excuses I have heard before. This is the past of rape.

For any man to say.. violence is required... is just sickening and a throw back to the past


http://www.collarchat.com/m_3964123/mpage_5/key_/tm.htm#3966189

Showing that the issue of men being raped has been brought up more than once in this thread.

quote:

But the bigger problem is your dismissal of biology. You know the joke that god gave man a brain and a penis- but only enough blood to run one at a time? Well, there's a certain truth to it. Sex is not a cold calculating act- well, not for most of at least. There's a reason we call it passion- and passion certainly implies a disregard of reason. So ask a guy who's aroused to think carefully about the mental state of his date? Can he solve a simple math problem- say the square root of 169? How about something more complex at that point? That's the whole point of passion- you're NOT thinking clearly. The Star Trek where Spock gets in a tussle with Kirk over a girl shows this so clearly- its the flaw in your argument. It just ignores human biology.


The "boys will be boys" attitude...


Did I mistate those?



tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/24/2011 4:01:23 PM)

quote:

I never said said that a rape couldn't occur without physical violence. I said that this case (one that is about written words) did not include violence and I don't believe words can ever constitute violence.


You dont consider it violence to mentally torture someone?

Im curious about that, because the experts disagree.

You can get a lot of cooperation from a woman by threatening her children. Is that not mental violence? Or course, you can do the same with a man.

Would it not be considered mental torture to tell someone that you have videos of them, and if they dont allow you to fuck them, then everyone will see that video? Do you consider that consensual sex?

Mental abuse is a form of violence that affects the mind, often leaving the abused feeling worthless and lacking empowerment. HealthGuide.org states that mental abuse is also known as emotional abuse. According to mental health specialist Kathryn Patricelli, types of mental or emotional abuse include verbal and psychological abuse and both can be extremely hurtful.

Read more: http://www.livestrong.com/article/133320-what-is-mental-abuse/#ixzz1hV22tnXy

Domestic violence, so defined, has many forms, including physical aggression or assault (hitting, kicking, biting, shoving, restraining, slapping, throwing objects), or threats thereof; sexual abuse; emotional abuse; controlling or domineering; intimidation; stalking; passive/covert abuse (e.g., neglect); and economic deprivation.

Domestic violence and abuse isn't limited to obvious physical violence. Domestic violence can also mean endangerment, criminal coercion, kidnapping, unlawful imprisonment, trespassing, harassment, and stalking.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence

Whether or not a state has a specific crime of domestic violence, it will have other crimes that the abuser may have committed. Crimes in your state may include:
Assault
Threats (or menacing)
Endangerment
Criminal coercion
Kidnapping
Unlawful imprisonment
Sexual offenses (e.g., sexual assault, rape)
Trespassing
Harassment
Stalking.

http://womenslaw.org/laws_state_type.php?statelaw_name=Crimes&state_code=GE




DaddySatyr -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/24/2011 4:10:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Did I mistate those?


Only two of your quotation boxes was mine. Are you going to do this, again?

Only the first quote ("I never said said that a rape couldn't occur without physical violence. I said that this case (one that is about written words) did not include violence and I don't believe words can ever constitute violence.") and the interior quote of the second box ("I don't accept your premise that violence can be present; absent a physical act. I guess I could be wrong but, I am almost positive that a physical act is the only thing that can be violent.") belong to me and I own and stand by them. I don't think violence is present absent a physical act. More to the point, that statement was made in reference to words not being violent

I do think that while violence is involved in all cases of rape that are perpetrated by men (because they are using a part of their body to penetrate another's body) that the physical damage is not the biggest issue. The emotional and mental damage is for more debilitating in most cases than the physical.

Your second two quotes are not mine. I believe they are samboct's but, I could be wrong. So, in these cases, you absolutely mistated my opinion by virtue of the fact that those quotes are not mine. I notice that you remove the names from all the quotes. Intentional? Well, I'll just assume it was since you've now demonstrated a decided lean toward mis-stating my position.



Peace and comfort,



Michael



tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/24/2011 4:24:49 PM)

quote:

Those were not solely "your" positions... some were heavily implied.


Top of the post you just cited.

Only the first quote ("I never said said that a rape couldn't occur without physical violence. I said that this case (one that is about written words) did not include violence and I don't believe words can ever constitute violence.") and the interior quote of the second box ("I don't accept your premise that violence can be present; absent a physical act. I guess I could be wrong but, I am almost positive that a physical act is the only thing that can be violent.") belong to me and I own and stand by them. I don't think violence is present absent a physical act. More to the point, that statement was made in reference to words not being violent


Addressed in the post just above yours.

quote:

So, in these cases, you absolutely mistated my opinion by virtue of the fact that those quotes are not mine. I notice that you remove the names from all the quotes. Intentional? Well, I'll just assume it was since you've now demonstrated a decided lean toward mis-stating my position.




Not at all... again, reference the first line of that post. It was stated, quite clearly, that all those points were not all yours.

Jumping to conclusions? I will just chalk it up to you not reading the complete post.



DaddySatyr -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/24/2011 4:42:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
You dont consider it violence to mentally torture someone?


No. I consider it mental torture. By definition, it affects the mind. The words used to do torture are not violent and, to be fair; mental torture is only truly effective when there is violence or the threat of violence to back it up.

For the most part, words only have any power if the listener gives it to them. To demonstrate, I will assume that my opinion doesn't matter to you; that you don't like me. If I call you a horrific name, it doesn't hurt you because my opinion is of no value to you. If your husband/boyfriend/girlfriend/significant other calls you that same name, their opinion matters to you and those words "hurt". Mind you; in an emotional sense; not in a physical sense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Im curious about that, because the experts disagree.


"Experts" claim to know how many rape cases go unreported which is a joke because if there's no report, it's only speculation. It's like me, saying: "I know how many stars are in the sky." Fuck experts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
You can get a lot of cooperation from a woman by threatening her children. Is that not mental violence? Or course, you can do the same with a man.


You can and you'd be a bastard for doing it but your words wouldn't have been violent. The threat would have to be credible which would usually mean some form of action that would convince the person that you're capable of hurting their children. It's why the law distinguishes between a credible threat and a non-credible threat.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Would it not be considered mental torture to tell someone that you have videos of them, and if they dont allow you to fuck them, then everyone will see that video? Do you consider that consensual sex?


Would it be mental torture? Maybe. Would it be consensual sex? No. It would be coercion/blackmail. Coercion/blackmail are not violent acts. If any sex occurred as a result, that would be a violent act.

As I have said, you have mis-stated my opinions a couple of times. I can no longer be bothered to engage you on this issue as we have hijacked the thread (and I apologize to everyone else for that).



Peace and comfort,



Michael



tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/24/2011 4:51:17 PM)

quote:

As I have said, you have mis-stated my opinions a couple of times. I can no longer be bothered to engage you on this issue as we have hijacked the thread (and I apologize to everyone else for that).


There is no hijack, this goes directly to the heart of the issue with the rape survey at the college.

I have not misstated your position. A disagreement about the meanings of mental abuse is not a misstatement. Its a shame you feel you know more than those who have the training.

But, I do agree at this point, further discussion would be moot.

Mental abuse is a form of violence, the medical profession agrees. I do believe their opinions are far more worthy of acceptance.



samboct -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/24/2011 4:54:25 PM)

Hi Angelika

Agree 90% on the pervocracy page. The problematic statement is here which another poster on that page Asehepe picked up on. Here's her comment:

"When we treat rapes between acquaintances and in relationships as rape-rape--in the news, in the legal system, in our conversations--we reinforce the idea that they're just as wrong and shocking as jumping out of the bushes."
This is indeed true. I note, however, that it bypasses the most important aspects of 'gray areas'. Because it's not always clear what kind of situation we're talking about, sometimes very different things -- the guy who just didn't listen to the repeated "oh no, please let's stop!" from his girlfriend, and the girl who felt angry because he didn't do exactly what she liked and decided it must be rape."

If rape between acquaintances and in relationships is simple- then sorry, I have to disagree. If it's a complex subject, then I can agree. Are there times when charges should be filed? Yes. But as noted- this is a gray area, and simple litmus tests fail.

With respect to physical evidence....mental anguish is tough to show absent a baseline brain function prior to the rape. Do we want to allow fMRI into the courtroom? I'm not sure. The problem with the psychological tests which show PTSD- how do you prove it was due to the rape?

Please note- I'm not disagreeing with anyone about the psychological damage rape can do- just questioning how useful it's going to be in a courtroom in front of a bunch of jurors.

Cheers,

Sam



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