RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus

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Lucylastic -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 1:43:21 PM)
rape is highly emotional for the victim emotional analysis with science is not conducive to accurate results Oh hang on thats what tazzy just said

tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 1:47:09 PM)
How many women are raped each year, Sam? How many men are raped? How many of both are victims of incest? Do you have actual numbers? Or do you have outdated police statistics from areas that wont file a report when a woman comes in to complain her husband raped her... her boy friend raped her... Its sad, I never dreamed that I would meet anyone, on line or off, that actually thought rapists shouldnt be in jail. Frankly, you need to do as angel suggested and get out from behind your dysfunctional microscopes and beakers and step into the real world. Though, I dont want you going to a rape crisis center. Those women have already been raped enough.

tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 1:48:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic rape is highly emotional for the victim emotional analysis with science is not conducive to accurate results Oh hang on thats what tazzy just said Gotta love people who just guess at numbers.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 1:49:01 PM)
I think there seems to be some assumption that men can't possibly know what it is to be raped. Based on some of the statistics that are being thrown around and the claims of under-reporting, is there a chance that one of the men that has posted to this thread might be personally acquainted with having been raped? Peace and comfort, Michael

tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 1:50:11 PM)
Already addressed a few times.

seababy -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 1:59:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: samboct Tazzy "Science is flawed when all the pertinent information is not available." I suggest you look up the definition of interpolation and extrapolation. We scientists have been dealing with incomplete data sets for centuries- doesn't mean we can't make progress. But I am reminded of another of Einstein's dictums...The difference between genius and stupidity? Genius has limits.... Sam Oh please we are talking social "science", and most people who have a high school education would know what the definition of interpolation and extrapolation is. If we are talking about under reporting you can't get accurate data by either. If your two "known"points are incorrect you can interpolate and extrapolate all you want its going to be wrong.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 2:02:24 PM)
I've seen at least one assertion where women know more about this subject because they've been raped or know someone who was raped. If we're willing to admit that there's a chance (albeit a small one) that one (or more) of the male posters also know what it is to be raped, possibly, their opinion shouldn't be so easily dismissed? Peace and comfort, Michael

samboct -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 2:09:20 PM)
Tazzy et al. Aya Gruber's not the only one who thinks this way. John Brigham at UMass Amherst has written a paper on Rape Culture here: http://works.bepress.com/john_brigham/24/ Here's the conclusion: Law may be both the expression of our moral economy and a force shaping it. In the case of the rape culture on American college campuses from roughly 1990 to the present, a petrified version of 2nd wave feminism has come to characterize the structure of authority and the college’s teaching on sexuality. It is a dangerous development that demonizes all men in constituting a vulnerable female subject.82 How much of this is the price a society has to pay to make women safe? This “price” is often characterized as insignificant relative to the widespread violence that men do. This is the challenge posed the rape culture paradigm. Sexual violence remains a social problem and a policy challenge but 79 p. 390. 80 p. 391. 81 p. 397. 82 In some respects the vulnerable female is a polar opposite to the fallen woman who was blamed for her own attack in the rape lore from times past. 25 at present it seems to me that there is too much of this view that men take sexual violence as a gender privilege, that they benefit from rape and are presumed to engage in sexual violence with impunity. Part of the preceding analysis has been about educational institutions because they have adopted the rape culture paradigm in dramatic ways but they have done very little about education for sexual relations. This is of course not an area where there is much confidence about state intervention. Nevertheless, the social order does require some attention to the construction of sexual relations, both attitudes and behaviors. The current campaign against sexual violence is doing very little to foster this sort of enlightened educational enterprise. In the area of sex and sexual violence the largest changes seem likely to take place outside the state, while the state, for its part, continues to over reach and demonstrate its mastery of unintended consequences. Let me summarize my viewpoint just in case some folks are mixing up Tazzy's comments with my thoughts. 1) The war on rape for the past 30 years has failed. 2) In practical terms we cannot put all the men in jail accused of rape, and we have already generated methods where women can use the legal system for revenge on men. 3) Legal remedies require simple black/white scenarios for enforcement. 4) Prosecutors working on the front lines in colleges report that rape is anything but black and white. 5) Educators have called for more education around rape, but also shifting the emphasis from criminalizing men to increased communication between the sexes. 6) Schools are failing miserably at this educational mission. The most recent example of this failure is the headline of this thread. Sam

Lucylastic -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 2:12:30 PM)
Personally I have worked with male rape victims.. I dont dismiss anything they say Michael, honestly. As a fast response to any who have problems learning how it affects people who have been raped.... Please just take a look at some rape forums learn a little before you can decide its a clinical issue www.aftersilence.org/ http://www.dailystrength.org/c/Rape/support-group http://pandys.org/forums/index.php?showforum=42 http://www.mdjunction.com/forums/rape-discussions read at least ten pages from the stories on those forums... look at any of the nearly 43 million hits on one single term :rape support group forums Ive been raped viciously and hospitalised, and several that would be considered as date rape now and i have never told my story on a forum or to the police... my reasons are my own, the attitude from some here is not conducive to sharing safely either

tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 2:34:21 PM)
quote: Let me summarize my viewpoint just in case some folks are mixing up Tazzy's comments with my thoughts. 1) The war on rape for the past 30 years has failed. 2) In practical terms we cannot put all the men in jail accused of rape, and we have already generated methods where women can use the legal system for revenge on men. 3) Legal remedies require simple black/white scenarios for enforcement. 4) Prosecutors working on the front lines in colleges report that rape is anything but black and white. 5) Educators have called for more education around rape, but also shifting the emphasis from criminalizing men to increased communication between the sexes. 6) Schools are failing miserably at this educational mission. The most recent example of this failure is the headline of this thread. 1) agreed, but Im sure for far different reasons. 2a) No one suggested we should, except you claimed we were. 2b)And women can be prosecuted for making false reports. DNA and medical science has come a long way in helping not only prosecute, but in clearing as well. 3) When 80% of the men convicted agree they are guilty, and another 20% are found guilty by a court of law.. thats pretty black and white. 4) Those are the date rape, drug rape cases. 5) The stated purpose of this narrative, to end violence against women, is an important goal that should not be diminished by the analysis presented here. The horrendous crimes of violence directed at women deserve unequivocal condemnation. But the goal of ending violence against women is at risk of being poorly implemented and the anti-violence project subverted by its partisans. In the name of protection for women, a “rape culture” paradigm8 and the law enforcement establishment, many of whose most ardent agents are men, is based in a criminal justice system 9 that fosters a perception of irresponsible and unchecked male aggression set against female vulnerability 10 and lack of responsibility. The uncritical acceptance of the “rape culture” paradigm and its imbeddedness in the institutions of state power posses a threat to innocent men and has become a political weapon 11 at the same time that it undermines the claims of sexual equality that have been the hallmark of feminism’s “Second Wave.” In addition, the image of women’s vulnerability that is implicit in the paradigm fails to acknowledge changes in the condition of women 12 and the context of sexual violence in the last 40 years. 13 In its zeal to enlist the apparatus of the state behind the rape culture paradigm, the interests of women as well as their safety has been subverted. This may be a modern version of the earlier racist rape culture that led to lynching in the American South that buttressed Jim Crow. A repeated point I have been making and you chose to ignore... In fact, more than one point. 6) If an employee had circulated such a survey among male co-workers, what do you think would happen?

samboct -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 2:46:41 PM)
Tazzy You claim that you're interested in fostering education between men and women- but- "And yet we have the same age group posting on these threads. I wont excuse those frat boys anymore than I would a man of 50." From page 1. No knowledge of how many frat boys took part, what was said, who said it, or what was intended- just a simple blanket punitive statement. No Tazzy, Education is NOT on your agenda. I'm done with your distortions. Sam

tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 2:55:40 PM)
~FR To bring this all back to the OP, because this has gotten way off track. A group of frat boys sent out a survery to pledges about "who on campus they would like to rape". One of the boys let the college know. The frats National Chapter decided to suspend the college based fraternity. The college itself is investigating. No one is denying the survey was sent. If we correlate this with the work environment.... A group of men at work send out a survey asking other men at work which female employees they would like to rape. Would this be an acceptable practice in the workplace? We all know the answer to that... no. But the same laws in place in the workforce are also in place at the college. When students enroll, they agree to those rules of conduct that every college has. At this point, the college is investigating with their legal department. Cant blame them, and they are going slow so as not to open themselves up to a lawsuit. The National Fraternity was well within its rights to pull the college charter. As of yet, no mention of criminal charges have surfaced. All this whining about how these boys are being mistreated is perhaps the only thing about all of this that is a joke.

tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 2:58:11 PM)
quote: "And yet we have the same age group posting on these threads. I wont excuse those frat boys anymore than I would a man of 50." Nope, I dont excuse their behavior. And yes, we do have the same age group posting on CM as they have in that frat house. How many 18-24 year olds do we get posting here? quote: From page 1. No knowledge of how many frat boys took part, what was said, who said it, or what was intended- just a simple blanket punitive statement. No one is denying it was sent, the frat president says he wont tell who it came from, but he knows. Thats got your panties in a wad?

seababy -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 3:14:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama <--------- Will continue to advise women to utilize the View Forum Posts feature I do, too! thank goodness posts don't go away here! Its a great feature. I am not looking at the moment as I am just concentrating on getting through uni but if I ever in the future start looking using this site I will be paying alot more attention to what Doms/Dommes post as opposed to their profile.

seababy -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 3:21:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl ~FR To bring this all back to the OP, because this has gotten way off track. A group of frat boys sent out a survery to pledges about "who on campus they would like to rape". One of the boys let the college know. The frats National Chapter decided to suspend the college based fraternity. The college itself is investigating. No one is denying the survey was sent. If we correlate this with the work environment.... A group of men at work send out a survey asking other men at work which female employees they would like to rape. Would this be an acceptable practice in the workplace? We all know the answer to that... no. But the same laws in place in the workforce are also in place at the college. When students enroll, they agree to those rules of conduct that every college has. At this point, the college is investigating with their legal department. Cant blame them, and they are going slow so as not to open themselves up to a lawsuit. The National Fraternity was well within its rights to pull the college charter. As of yet, no mention of criminal charges have surfaced. All this whining about how these boys are being mistreated is perhaps the only thing about all of this that is a joke. Yep I agree. Great post.

samboct -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 3:25:27 PM)
Yup- only one minor problem. Its fabricated. Tazzy wants to lead a witch hunt for frat boy butt. From here: http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2011/12/shutting-down-fraternity-is-social.html Shutting down the fraternity at the University of Vermont is a 'social injustice' Former president of UVM's Sigma Phi Epsilon chapter Alexander Haller calls it "a social injustice," because it is. Mr. Haller was referring to the fact that his fraternity was shuttered indefinitely by the national fraternity, with the university's blessing, in the wake of the infamous rape survey. We've previously reported that the fraternity neither sent out nor sanctioned the infamous question asking "who" the recipient(s) would like to rape. One new frat brother posed the query at issue to a limited fraternity audience. The person or persons to whom the survey was sent refused to answer the question and told the new member who sent it to change it immediately. Is this the correct expression here? SNAP! Sam

xxblushesxx -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 3:55:23 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: samboct OK Tazzy- Recall Einstein's definition of crazy I posted earlier in this thread- that one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result.. Trying to incarcerate all the rapists hasn't worked. That's what Gruber is pointing out, and that what I've been pointing out. Here's Gruber's prescription- again... "Feminists can counteract the rape-permissive gender norms largely enforced by women instead of relentlessly focusing on the criminality of men," she said. "And feminists must talk to young men about their attitudes as people, not just seek to incarcerate them as criminals." Sam Well, apparently talking with the older men hasn't helped. So, by this logic, since locking up murderers hasn't stopped all murders, we shouldn't attempt to lock them up any longer? We should just talk to them?

samboct -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 4:02:18 PM)
Good grief Christina! Look- murder is black and white- the law deals OK with stuff that's black and white. Nor do we have people running around saying that there are a vast number of murders that are unreported- do we? The prosecutors report that on college campuses- rape is NOT black and white- it's anything but. And this is both male and female prosecutors. So the law has been a lousy solution. Their suggestion- try educating young people so that attitudes shift. You can't educate people if all you're doing is threatening them with jail. It hasn't worked. Time to try something different. This thread has helped crystallize a lot of my thinking in this regard- and it's forced me to do some reading of some people with some well thought out viewpoints. Try it- you might like it! Sam

tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 4:04:42 PM)
quote: Yup- only one minor problem. Its fabricated. Tazzy wants to lead a witch hunt for frat boy butt. What did I fabricate? That the National Fraternity can close it for their own reasons? They dont have to run one at that college. No law making them. That the Frat President knew? As he looks for a new apartment, Alexander Haller wishes everyone would forget the question, which he says was not officially sanctioned by the frat. Haller won't name names, but he stands by his frat brother who he says wrote the question in bad taste. (Haller) "People have made some strong statements about whoever said this and what they should go do. The person just needs a hug and some sensitivity training and not the whole world telling him they hate him because he doesn't get it." Infer what you like from his interview... Sig Ep’s chapter at UVM was placed on social probation this fall and prevented from holding events the rest of the semester. That sanction followed an underage drinking incident at the house in October, according to records obtained by the Free Press. In 1993, the parent organization revoked the UVM chapter’s charter, saying hazing and other behavior placed the national office at risk of a lawsuit. Pledges were asked in interviews to tell a racist joke, say what they would do with a stripper they had seen the previous night, and describe their sexual encounters. The charter was restored in 1997. http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/article/20111216/NEWS02/111216012/Sigma-Phi-Epsilon-to-close-UVM-chapter-in-wake-of-rape-survey-controversy Just off probabtion and then this? Sam, try another source besides a blog.

tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/23/2011 4:07:18 PM)
quote: The prosecutors report that on college campuses- rape is NOT black and white- it's anything but. Try.... report on college campuses that not ALL rape is black and white. You might find people more willing to agree with you... instead what you wrote is saying that all rapes on colleges are questionable... and thats far from the truth.

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