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ORIGINAL: Snort

I was stunned by the new stats that are creating headlines. I discussed this with several women who I know well, and was even more stunned to find that almost HALF of them said they had been subjected to or narrowly avoided rape when they were in their teens or twenties. (and yes, we are old enough and close enough to have this kind of discussion)

GAH! That leaves me with a knot in my stomach. My friends are reg'lar, got their shit together women who don't engage in "high risk asking for it bullshit" activities. Yeah, don't flame for that remark, but I always assumed (apparently dumbshittingly) that rape was more likely when you had two drunk people who were all over each other until a sudden "no" got ignored. Not an excuse, just figured it was higher risk. Now I just gotta figure otherwise.

On the other side, I also know a couple of guys who have been accused of rape and battery by ex girlfriends as payback for the breakup. One was drinking beer in my living room at the precise moment this supposedly happened. Men aren't the only fucked up humans...

So now I'm worried. I have a statistically significant tendency to attract friends who get in harms way more than the norm. What's wrong with me?

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Nor do we have people running around saying that there are a vast number of murders that are unreported- do we?

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ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

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ORIGINAL: samboct

Hi Michael

This is where I fall back on the Constitution- innocent until proven guilty. I find it hard to take such a poll seriously- to me it's a joke- in poor taste perhaps- but a joke nonetheless. I mean really- you're gonna ask your buddies who do you want to go out an rape? I've never heard a man brag about raping anyone- they'd be more likely to admit that they lifted somebody's wallet and snagged a few bux. But I did hear my college roommates girlfriend yell- "you bastard, you raped me!"- when having sex and them throwing each other around a bit. If she found out that he had a different girl on the side- would she have made that charge to the cops? I wouldn't put it past her.


Sam

Pleas allow me to reiterate:

I think that what they did falls just short of criminal behavior. I agree with you (the constitution is always my fall-back position).

However, I think that their actions teeter on the brink of criminal behavior ("conspiracy", as I pointed out, earlier). But, more importantly, I think their behavior is morally repugnant. I think that that point needs to be driven home for them. I am not speaking about legal action but, as suggested earlier; I think their names should be made public. I think they should be made to understand that while they dodged a legal bullet, their behavior doesn't pass muster in a civil society.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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ORIGINAL: samboct

Yup- only one minor problem. Its fabricated. Tazzy wants to lead a witch hunt for frat boy butt.

From here: http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2011/12/shutting-down-fraternity-is-social.html

Shutting down the fraternity at the University of Vermont is a 'social injustice'
Former president of UVM's Sigma Phi Epsilon chapter Alexander Haller calls it "a social injustice," because it is.

Mr. Haller was referring to the fact that his fraternity was shuttered indefinitely by the national fraternity, with the university's blessing, in the wake of the infamous rape survey.

We've previously reported that the fraternity neither sent out nor sanctioned the infamous question asking "who" the recipient(s) would like to rape. One new frat brother posed the query at issue to a limited fraternity audience. The person or persons to whom the survey was sent refused to answer the question and told the new member who sent it to change it immediately.

Is this the correct expression here?


SNAP!



Sam

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ORIGINAL: samboct

Good grief Christina!

Look- murder is black and white- the law deals OK with stuff that's black and white.


Nor do we have people running around saying that there are a vast number of murders that are unreported- do we?

The prosecutors report that on college campuses- rape is NOT black and white- it's anything but. And this is both male and female prosecutors. So the law has been a lousy solution. Their suggestion- try educating young people so that attitudes shift. You can't educate people if all you're doing is threatening them with jail. It hasn't worked. Time to try something different. This thread has helped crystallize a lot of my thinking in this regard- and it's forced me to do some reading of some people with some well thought out viewpoints. Try it- you might like it!

Sam

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

Yup- only one minor problem. Its fabricated. Tazzy wants to lead a witch hunt for frat boy butt.

From here: http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/2011/12/shutting-down-fraternity-is-social.html

Shutting down the fraternity at the University of Vermont is a 'social injustice'
Former president of UVM's Sigma Phi Epsilon chapter Alexander Haller calls it "a social injustice," because it is.

Mr. Haller was referring to the fact that his fraternity was shuttered indefinitely by the national fraternity, with the university's blessing, in the wake of the infamous rape survey.

We've previously reported that the fraternity neither sent out nor sanctioned the infamous question asking "who" the recipient(s) would like to rape. One new frat brother posed the query at issue to a limited fraternity audience. The person or persons to whom the survey was sent refused to answer the question and told the new member who sent it to change it immediately.



Sam

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ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx
falserapesocietydotblogspotdotcom? Oh yeah...that's a good source for ya...[:-][8|]

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I see women's dismissal of my thoughts as an acceptance of the status quo.

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So the reality is that the education concerning rape on campus IS working- the members of the frat KNEW what had happened was inappropriate- and took steps to correct. In the age of the internet though- you write a letter- but you PUBLISH an email.

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Seems to me the problem here is that the stereotypes about frat houses are in error-and women on this board don't want to admit that they've responded with prejudice.- the same sort of prejudice that women have railed against in the past. In short, rather than exercising tolerance, many of the posters here have hankered for frat boy blood, even when apparently, there has been no crime that the frat should bear responsibility for- just the actions of a single individual which other members of the frat condemned.

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And you're right- I'm not up in arms about sexual violence towards women- I'm up in arms about sexual violence- period. And I'm angry that women are trying to deny men rights as human beings and to criminalize all men by monopolizing the discussion around rape. It hasn't worked and I see women's dismissal of my thoughts as an acceptance of the status quo.

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I think the individuals involved who are found guilty should be the ones disciplined

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ORIGINAL: samboct

Seababy

"We've previously reported that the fraternity neither sent out nor sanctioned the infamous question asking "who" the recipient(s) would like to rape. One new frat brother posed the query at issue to a limited fraternity audience. The person or persons to whom the survey was sent refused to answer the question and told the new member who sent it to change it immediately."

Making an assumption that this web site is accurate-(and yes, that is a concern, but it does gybe with the lack of the document in question.) Personally I am not assuming that any article I have read so far is accurate. I'm just commenting on any who are found after the investigation to be complicite with this survey.

Then apparently reading comprehension is an endemic problem here. You do like to throw around the accusations of others posters being intellectually lacking. Considering your post on extrapolating data you might want to tone that down.

Consider: ONE person sent out this survey- and was reprimanded by other members of the frat house. Actually I have considered that it may be ONE person, few, many, one my statement still stands. The person/s (not those who just received it) needs to be addressed, and the underlying attitude behind that email is toxic.

Not "The attitude of the frat men who did involve themselves in supporting the rape survey is toxic, it harms our society and is a serious issue that must be addressed. "

On one hand- it would seem that some people should be happy with this outcome- a rogue individual came up with something that wasn't appropriate- and with no outside prompting- members of the frat house took action. The problem is that there's no story there- no headlines- no big media blitz- just a single individual who made an error in judgement or acted in poor taste.

So the reality is that the education concerning rape on campus IS working- the members of the frat KNEW what had happened was inappropriate- and took steps to correct. In the age of the internet though- you write a letter- but you PUBLISH an email.

Seems to me the problem here is that the stereotypes about frat houses are in error-and women on this board don't want to admit that they've responded with prejudice.- I'm  Australian we don't have frat houses or to my knowledge anything like them, so it means nothing to me, I am just looking purely at the behaviour in this event. the same sort of prejudice that women have railed against in the past.Women have railed against prejudice that labels them as sexually objectifying men and supporting a rape culture?   In short, rather than exercising tolerance, many of the posters here have hankered for frat boy blood, even when apparently, there has been no crime that the frat should bear responsibility for- just the actions of a single individual which other members of the frat condemned.

From my perspective- your comments concerning my posts seem to be viewed from this same distorted looking glass- a man that doesn't agree with you concerning rape is automatically a monster. Those are your words not mine I don't have to bother defending something I have not said.So rather than try and build bridges and acknowledge that perhaps, we share many of the same important goals I dont believe we do actually. and differ primarily in our methods of achieving those goals- you dismiss me and men like me, tarring us with the brush that this "attitude is one of the reasons women give up on reporting." Yes what would I know about that. Much better if you tell me what my reasons are for not reporting.

And you're right- I'm not up in arms about sexual violence towards women- I'm up in arms about sexual violence- period. And I'm angry that women are trying to deny men rights as human beings and to criminalize all men So exactly what in my post has lead you to this statement?  Its irrational statements like this that makes it futile to argue with you. by monopolizing the discussion around rape.  Thats fine you are welcome to talk about your rape experience to.  It hasn't worked and I see women's dismissal of my thoughts as an acceptance of the status quo. I haven't dismissed them or I wouldn't have answered. I simply disagree.

A poster mentioned that they have a niece and nephew, growing up, and I scare them. Well, it's mutual. I'd be damned if I'd want my niece exposed to the poisonous clap trap that's been expressed here vilifying men. No just vilifying rapists actually.  I don't want her going to a college and hearing- one in four women here will be raped and then viewing the boys in her class with a mixture of horror and suspicion. It's not the reality and the scare tactics haven't worked. I want her to have a better education than that.


Sam

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If someone tells me something in confidence- then yeah, I'm not going to give them up- at least not before I'm going to jail or am convinced that I'm an unwitting conspirator to a crime. And before you say these are kiddie games- well, that's my business ethics as well. Was there a subpoena? Or just a university president and a fraternity president looking to avoid some unpleasant publicity? Because if the frat brothers give up the kid who did it- then the university pres and the frat pres can heave a sigh of relief and toss him to the wolves- but then the idea of privacy on campus takes yet another hit. Plus- it's arguable that since the kid getting tossed to the wolves is going to have a long time living this down and he's already been tried, convicted and sentenced in absentia, that he may be very scared right now and begging people not to give him up. I'll point out yet again- that this may have been nothing more than a drunken joke from a youngster- wasn't he a new pledge, i.e. probably a freshman?

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ORIGINAL: xXLithiumXx
I don't know about falling short. In my state, if you imply that you will do physical damage someone, then you have committed an act of terroristic threatening. While that is not a felony, and it certainly wouldn't stop them from actually doing it, it may give them a reason to pause and consider their actions more fully in the future.

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In terms of my views on date rape at this point- I'll bow to Aya Gruber- assume that I agree with her viewpoint- I suspect we're pretty close.