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xxblushesxx -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/26/2011 5:52:03 PM)

You're not funny Sam. I'm not gonna stoop to your level.




MusicalBoredom -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/26/2011 6:23:12 PM)

Well I stopped reading by page 4 but I will read the rest.

First, "free speech" and "the constitution" in regards to this type of story only have to do with rather it's legal or not and as I didn't see anyone being arrested then it's not a valid point. The national level of the fraternity in question has every right in the world to revoke their charter.  They as a local group represent the national group and as such are giving them a bad name.  The school also has a right to shut down the fraternity if they feel the group is a danger as a group.

Now as to all the bullshit about defining what is and isn't rape let me tell you my story.  Things happened to me that I can't go in to because of the TOS when I was young.  I acted like I was asleep and you could say that might me considered consent.  I DID NOT want it to happen.  I played along to get out of the situation. How many women say "no" and go along with it in the end just to get out of the situation?  That's freaking rape!

Let's say you're a guy and some other guy that's way bigger than you has decided he's going to be sexual with you and does.  Maybe he even bought you 8 shots of Patron. Are you going to be confused about whether or not you were raped?  Does he have to have had a gun or knife to make it rape?  Does he have to have used a drug? No, you are going to KNOW he was wrong and you are going to pissed enough to do violence.





tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/26/2011 6:27:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

You're not funny Sam. I'm not gonna stoop to your level.


My reply was half snark, half realistic. I dont see him complaining about all the people in jail for pot... most of which were just simple possessions. Yet he is screaming about the number of men who plead guilty and are in prison because we dont have enough room.

Frankly, he has been playing games all along.




xxblushesxx -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/26/2011 6:33:11 PM)

If you were too young to consent, it's rape. No doubt.
If you were too intoxicated (and the other person knew it) to consent, it's rape.
I'm very sorry for what happened to you.
And to anyone who has been subjected to unwanted sexual contact and felt helpless to stop it for whatever reason.
It's not ok.




Lucylastic -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/26/2011 6:45:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

A novel idea.

Legalize pot, stop convicting the pot smokers, which are little more than a nuance crime, making lots of room for people who commit a sexual assault against women.

Nothing like making punishment for pot and possession longer than the charge of rape
Yes that is what MY government is attempting to pass
FUcking asshole jerks
they have an easier time catching potheads than they can from making charges stick to rapist cunts.
Its still a mans world




tweakabelle -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/26/2011 6:49:31 PM)

quote:

All the more infuriating, Annie says, when compared to UVA’s strict academic honor code. Students are automatically expelled if they violate it, by say cheating on an exam.

Kotb: Everyone knows that if you cheat, you’re out. If you steal, you’re out. If you lie, you’re out.

Annie: If you rape, you graduate.

Thank you kalishama. That little excerpt says it all doesn't it?

I didn't bother reading the rest of the thread.




xxblushesxx -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/26/2011 6:55:24 PM)

I would think it would be difficult to comment without reading the context of most of the thread. (not every post, but many)
No one was raped, so that wouldn't be a reason to expell anyone. I'm not sure that is true either, btw (if you rape, you graduate) although I'm not sure it's untrue.
This thread was about a fraternity who sent out a questionaire, and one of the questions was name who you would like to rape on campus. (awkwardly worded, but I assume it meant who on campus (in the college) you would like to rape)
The discussion was meant to be about the gentlemen who participated in this and what (if anything) should happen to them.
It's definitley progressed more to a discussion about rape in general and what is and isn't rape.




tweakabelle -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/26/2011 9:01:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

I would think it would be difficult to comment without reading the context of most of the thread. (not every post, but many)
No one was raped, so that wouldn't be a reason to expell anyone. I'm not sure that is true either, btw (if you rape, you graduate) although I'm not sure it's untrue.
This thread was about a fraternity who sent out a questionaire, and one of the questions was name who you would like to rape on campus. (awkwardly worded, but I assume it meant who on campus (in the college) you would like to rape)
The discussion was meant to be about the gentlemen who participated in this and what (if anything) should happen to them.
It's definitley progressed more to a discussion about rape in general and what is and isn't rape.

Gentlemen? Sorry but my understanding of 'gentlemen' doesn't include those lying about swilling beer and discussing which of their fellow students they'd enjoy raping. Can we agree on 'males' ? Or perhaps go gender non-specific with 'frat members'?

Not the best behaviour by any standards is it? Not something that will appear on their resumes is it? It's not clear that all of those responsible will remain at the college but they shouldn't should they? That would be the college saying that it takes cheating at exams more seriously than rape wouldn't it? Not a good look.

I see nothing with wrong with putting this incident in its context. Most studies I've seen have something like 1 in 3 women reporting sexual assault. That equates to roughly 1 in 6 in the population or something in the region of 55 million American women, or in my case, c3million Australian women. That makes it a pretty urgent issue in my book.

From where I sit, the more airspace the more publicity rape gets, the better. It is a vile indefensible attack on any one - be they man, woman or child. It is not something to joke or snigger about. We need to everything we can to rid ourselves of this scourge now. That should have been accomplished a long long time ago.




xxblushesxx -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/26/2011 9:07:59 PM)

Yes, well...I'm sorry about all the joking and sniggering about it I've been doing.
I will try to amend my ways.




tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/26/2011 9:52:07 PM)

~FR

This thread got derailed.. and I think intentionally... because a few felt rape laws were "overbearing".

As I have said more than once....

No one has been charged with a crime.

The National Fraternity suspended the chapter... and they are legally entitled to do so.

The college is helping the now displaced students to find housing.. so there is no "poor me, im homeless" bs to deal with.

The rest is up to the college and the police. And I dont foresee any decision made by those two groups until after the new year.




xXLithiumXx -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/26/2011 9:57:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

If i was a girl at that campus, i would not date any of the guys that belonged to that frat house... this guy could be any one of them.. I wonder how much it will cramp all their action..


The house is closed, how will they know who all the members are?



That is what I was going to ask...have the names of those involved been divulged?

I mean..Shouldn't it be out there that they would consider rape a viable option...in event of zombie Apocalypse stay away from boys a-k?

Just sayin'.




xXLithiumXx -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/26/2011 10:08:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

~FR

This thread got derailed.. and I think intentionally... because a few felt rape laws were "overbearing".




I love that. Overbearing rape laws.

So...forcefully shoving your penis in someones body is not overbearing?

Wow. I had no idea. -That- is fecking awesome! I will remember that the next time the jack ass at the check out is being an overbearing cock weasel. I will just forcefully shove a 17 inch strap on in his fat ass and tell him we are even.

quote:





The college is helping the now displaced students to find housing.. so there is no "poor me, im homeless" bs to deal with.



Buahahaha...I wish I could go to campus there and hear just -one- of these boys ask for sympathy.

I would beat them about the head and shoulders with the section of the dictionary from shit to syphilis and ask them if there was any sympathy in there.

To be frank, they shouldn't even still be able to attend school there. The fact that the parents haven't been notified is just about the most ignorant thing I have EVER heard. (I have a son, he is 11, I would want to know if he had done something like this, because even if it was some ignorant frat house fantasy, I would skin him alive.)

No, no crime was committed. Which is a good thing. I should be advocating that people can not be convicted of thinking about doing bad things to people, because I think about doing horrific things to at least one person at least 100000 times a day. That's if I do not drive, because if I do, the road rage is crazy. But still. WTF!?

I think we are all enraged because in our minds, the what may have happened is the scary, fucked up part of it all. The really pissy part to all of us is that there is not a damned thing that can be done about it and we are all thinking about what rape victims endure.

Maybe it is best for everyone if it is left to anonymity.




LafayetteLady -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/26/2011 11:09:32 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xXLithiumXx

quote:


The college is helping the now displaced students to find housing.. so there is no "poor me, im homeless" bs to deal with.


Buahahaha...I wish I could go to campus there and hear just -one- of these boys ask for sympathy.

I would beat them about the head and shoulders with the section of the dictionary from shit to syphilis and ask them if there was any sympathy in there.


I do believe there might have been members of the fraternity who were not involved.  Without the "author" of the survey stepping forward, the local frat president not divulging the name and who all received the survey, it really isn't fair to hang each boy for the incident.

quote:


To be frank, they shouldn't even still be able to attend school there. The fact that the parents haven't been notified is just about the most ignorant thing I have EVER heard. (I have a son, he is 11, I would want to know if he had done something like this, because even if it was some ignorant frat house fantasy, I would skin him alive.)


They likely will be on academic probation and receive other sanctions from the school.  As for "calling the parents," these aren't grade school or high school boys, they are legally adults.  Parents aren't even entitled to get their grades or talk to their instructors, so whether *you* would want to know or not is irrelevant.  That law doesn't allow you to.

quote:


I think we are all enraged because in our minds, the what may have happened is the scary, fucked up part of it all. The really pissy part to all of us is that there is not a damned thing that can be done about it and we are all thinking about what rape victims endure.

Maybe it is best for everyone if it is left to anonymity.


Yes, what *could* have happened is frightening.  But it is frightening to think what *could* have happened when your child is out of your sight in a store for 3 seconds.

The people on this forum can't do a thing about it.  However, the school has taken action, the National Fraternity has taken action.  The school is still investigating the incident.  This wasn't a "plan" to rape people, and these boys definately need to learn appropriate behavior and get a bit of an education regarding violence against women.  What they don't deserve is to be hung for their stupidity, which is essentially what so many people here want to do.  Lock them up and throw away the key, post their names all over campus, expel them from school, do everything to make them feel what a rape victim feels.  They did NOT rape anyone.  In fact, to our knowledge so far, they didn't even terrify any female on campus with this email which was reported by a member of the fraternity, let's not forget that.

Academic probation, loss of scholarships, housing in the dorms, volunteer work and attending the same classes that men who have commited violence against women need to attend (they aren't anger management, although that is part of it), review of their behavior once a month for a year.  In this case, while frats are known for their feelings of entitlement and bad behavior, these boys were caught before (well mostly before, considering the other issues they had) anyone was truly hurt.  There is an opportunity here to teach them why what they WROTE was wrong.  If they could learn a lesson, they might spread what they learned to others, and they might raise their sons to know better.




seababy -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/26/2011 11:56:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: xXLithiumXx

quote:


The college is helping the now displaced students to find housing.. so there is no "poor me, im homeless" bs to deal with.


Buahahaha...I wish I could go to campus there and hear just -one- of these boys ask for sympathy.

I would beat them about the head and shoulders with the section of the dictionary from shit to syphilis and ask them if there was any sympathy in there.


I do believe there might have been members of the fraternity who were not involved.  Without the "author" of the survey stepping forward, the local frat president not divulging the name and who all received the survey, it really isn't fair to hang each boy for the incident.

quote:


To be frank, they shouldn't even still be able to attend school there. The fact that the parents haven't been notified is just about the most ignorant thing I have EVER heard. (I have a son, he is 11, I would want to know if he had done something like this, because even if it was some ignorant frat house fantasy, I would skin him alive.)


They likely will be on academic probation and receive other sanctions from the school.  As for "calling the parents," these aren't grade school or high school boys, they are legally adults.  Parents aren't even entitled to get their grades or talk to their instructors, so whether *you* would want to know or not is irrelevant.  That law doesn't allow you to.

quote:


I think we are all enraged because in our minds, the what may have happened is the scary, fucked up part of it all. The really pissy part to all of us is that there is not a damned thing that can be done about it and we are all thinking about what rape victims endure.

Maybe it is best for everyone if it is left to anonymity.


Yes, what *could* have happened is frightening.  But it is frightening to think what *could* have happened when your child is out of your sight in a store for 3 seconds.

The people on this forum can't do a thing about it.  However, the school has taken action, the National Fraternity has taken action.  The school is still investigating the incident.  This wasn't a "plan" to rape people, and these boys definately need to learn appropriate behavior and get a bit of an education regarding violence against women.  What they don't deserve is to be hung for their stupidity, which is essentially what so many people here want to do.  Lock them up and throw away the key, post their names all over campus, expel them from school, do everything to make them feel what a rape victim feels.  They did NOT rape anyone.  In fact, to our knowledge so far, they didn't even terrify any female on campus with this email which was reported by a member of the fraternity, let's not forget that.

Academic probation, loss of scholarships, housing in the dorms, volunteer work and attending the same classes that men who have commited violence against women need to attend (they aren't anger management, although that is part of it), review of their behavior once a month for a year.  In this case, while frats are known for their feelings of entitlement and bad behavior, these boys were caught before (well mostly before, considering the other issues they had) anyone was truly hurt.  There is an opportunity here to teach them why what they WROTE was wrong.  If they could learn a lesson, they might spread what they learned to others, and they might raise their sons to know better.


/agree




tj444 -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/27/2011 12:01:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
  There is an opportunity here to teach them why what they WROTE was wrong.  If they could learn a lesson, they might spread what they learned to others, and they might raise their sons to know better.

thats the thing.. IF they could learn a lesson (the good kind, not the bad kind).. what are the odds, i wonder.. i guess one can hope..




FrostedFlake -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/27/2011 12:08:26 AM)

Apologies, ladies and gents. It was past six AM. I was tired. I couldn't even handle my Italics. And I could and should have written a better post. One that would not be misinterpreted. Pardon if I try again. But first, a word from a lovely lady, whom I would like to have known better. A lady whose talent is truth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wTJ3ZdZrBA

Since I got my arm pinned back on, July 30, 2010, I have put 4800 miles on my bicycle. In that time I have met 3 dogs that were a problem. One was a problem because his owner was aggressive. The other two were problems because their owners had private junkyards with no fence and they wanted aggressive dogs. In each case the dogs aggression stemmed from the owners' attitude. I had words with each and words failed. But I didn't fail, because I had Mace. I used it once. And HAD to. That dog is now tied. Jailed. I showed Mace to the other two owners. They changed their dogs behavior. In each case the problem was caused by the owners attitude. In each case the problem was solved when that attitude changed.

If, as my previous post was interpreted to suggest, I chose to live in fear, then these three dogs would have a great time with me. Perhaps even, have Lunch. And my life would be much diminished, if not shortened. I chose instead to change the attitude. And I think that's what Selene was talking about.

Don't go out alone,
Don't go out alone,
Don't go out alone,
You might get raped!

Was she giving good advice to her sisters or was she raging over a situation everyone knows about but no one does anything about? Does nothing except freely give fear based victim bashing cop-out advice like that, as if it were 'help'.

As help goes, that is faint and fainthearted, beyond the point of vanishing. Rather than offer protection it limits the horizon and actually enables what it supposes to prevent. Because it cultivates fear. Of other peoples attitudes. Attitudes that can be changed. If they are confronted. Better would be to say, "Here dear girl, this is Mace." That would be something positive and liberating, as opposed to something negative and stultifying. Better still would be to prosecute rapists as if they were criminals. The primary purpose of law is freedom. A nation with a million nonviolent prisoners can afford to hold more rapists. Easily.

Both these initiatives would alter the attitude that causes the problem. Mace in the face is very effective. Handcuffs often work, also. The anticipation of both has effect too. But I think addressing the attitude directly is where the real change can be made. I feel that is what the discussion surrounding Sigma Phi Epsilon is about.

If I may close with a rather grotesque comparison. I recall a man named Byrd who was dragged to his death behind a pickup. The men inside expected to terrify the Black People of Jasper, Texas. As was previously traditional. Things didn't work that way. Anymore. Things had changed. And they changed some more. Black People are no longer second class citizens. Sigma Phi Epsilon assumed they would be allowed to act out with impunity. They expected to be fled, or winked at. They were wrong. Things have changed. And they are going to change some more.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/09/21/national/main20109842.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_James_Byrd,_Jr.




tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/27/2011 2:58:51 AM)

quote:

As help goes, that is faint and fainthearted, beyond the point of vanishing. Rather than offer protection it limits the horizon and actually enables what it supposes to prevent. Because it cultivates fear. Of other peoples attitudes. Attitudes that can be changed. If they are confronted. Better would be to say, "Here dear girl, this is Mace." That would be something positive and liberating, as opposed to something negative and stultifying. Better still would be to prosecute rapists as if they were criminals. The primary purpose of law is freedom. A nation with a million nonviolent prisoners can afford to hold more rapists. Easily.


Just one problem. The dogs could not take your mace and use it against you.




FrostedFlake -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/27/2011 4:00:54 AM)

True, Tazzy.

But, the third of these dogs I dealt with on Christmas day. Last Sunday. On my 50 mile ride home from my sisters place. That dog had two young Marine Corps looking gents backing him up. As distinct from, calling him off. I took care to threaten no one and make no display... other than displaying the can of mace. They could have taken my mace, just as you suggest, out of my fist, just as easily as it could be taken from you. Whether they took it or not, without the Mace, I would have had big trouble. 25 miles from home. You cannot fight a man who has a dog without that dog attacking from behind. That is what dogs do, they support the leader of the pack. With the Mace, I got wished a merry Christmas.

Clear in my mind is, they figured I would hose all three. And that was true. And had I, I would have called the Sheriff, before they did, and (DING!) before they recovered and jumped in a truck and headed down the road in pursuit. For the Sheriff, I would have taken photos. Now, let's imagine the sympathy I would have gotten from the Sheriff after meeting these local boys with nothing in my hand.

Your mileage may vary. Nothing always works. Any imaginable situation could become yours. You pays yer nickle, you takes yer chances. But at the end of the day, resistance is not useless. And if you cannot resist... that's that.

Edited to add : Coordinates :  46°27'02.81" N 122°57'46.43" W

Paste that into Google maps, zoom in, note the amateur junkyard. I already did, so it should work just fine. I was riding from Kelso to Centralia.




Aswad -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/27/2011 4:57:09 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct

[...] one in four women in campus will be raped is where that one's coming from...there were orientation classes that bring up that statistic to a bunch of young men [...] the boys look around and start wondering- OK, who's the rapist? [...] My comment- not a good educational tool.


This point cannot be stressed enough: it's a non-starter as an educational tool. I remember this statistic being presented to us back in school. The universal response was disconnection. Everyone was like "no fucking way", even the girls being incredulous about it, and we all tuned out everything else ever said about that topic for the next six years. It was that potent at demolishing any attempt at educating on the topic.

Epic Fail.

Hell, I don't remember a single word of those four hours after that. Yes, four hours in a single sitting, all on the subject of sexual abuse. I do remember one of the victims was kind of hot. Haven't a clue what she said, or how she said it, or what happened to her. 5'8" or so, early twenties, curly redhead, lots of freckles, cyan-grey eyes, D cup, nice bum. Not a word. Teflon coating. I remember her voice, and how it sounds when she's tearing up, but I can't remember her crying.

Now I can arrive at those figures myself with a back-of-envelope calculation, and it seems viable.

But back then... someone presented an extraordinary claim without evidence or a definition of terms, or indeed any other set of details or prepwork that might have set up the backdrop for actually grasping what was being said. A direct result of this was that anything else they said was wasted breath, and that girls got raped the next few years by boys that never thought of it that way and would've been horrified to grasp the implications of what they were doing.

One of them did grasp it, years later.

Sometimes, visiting the cemetary for other reasons, I wonder if there would've been two less tombstones with familiar names on them if more effort had been expended on teaching people the consequences of their actions up front, rather than slamming doors shut in their minds with shock tactics. And let's face it, that's what it is. The figures, even correct, are rightly shocking. Presenting them serves to invoke shock, not to prepare for facts.

In my experience, most males have a sexuality that is to some extent connected to power and conquest. Yet, also in my experience, most males don't want to hurt or harm women for no reason. Indeed, the vast majority appreciate women to the point where treating them well is a satisfying thing to do. Seems likely there's a disconnect between intent and effect that can be remedied with education on how to keep the effect in alignment with the intent.

The statistics are pretty clear that outright assault is a comparatively rare event, with a different perp profile.

That's a pretty large step up in my mind, at least, especially as regards intent and malice.

Nobody gains anything by conflating the two, which is what happens when one doesn't lay the groundwork before going ahead with the statistics. As you say, "who's the rapist?", that becomes the incredulous question. And when one has some notion that we're talking brutal sex at gunpoint by a stranger, the answer is obviously "nobody I know," and then the idea flies out the window. It is not exactly trivial to imagine a third of your buddies forcing sex from half the girls in the class by violent coercion. So it gets filed under "unbelievable propaganda to be disregarded", along with "you'll understand the reasons why round holes require square pegs when you get older" and "smoking weed results in nuclear bombs falling on your house".

[sm=2cents.gif]

Health,
al-Aswad.





GreedyTop -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/27/2011 5:02:02 AM)

~FR~ as always, Aswad, I love reading your posts.

Warmest regards to you and yours.




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