RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (Full Version)

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Casteele -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/18/2011 7:50:44 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
And while you are entitled to your opinion, I am equally entitled to mine... without your assumption that I am speaking from an emotional place merely because I am a woman.

There is no argument about opinions and entitlement to them (although I can argue about the quality of opinions, but that is not what this thread is about), although the way I've been seeing you repeatedly present yours lately very much makes me feel as if you are pushing yours upon others and if they do not accept and agree with you, there will be hell to pay.

The same thing about making assumptions. In your very statement up there you assumed what I said was directed at you--to which I say "Pot, kettle, black." Just because the forum has a mechanism in place that directs ALL replies towards someone specific, does not mean ALL replies ARE directed at that person. Nor does it mean everything someone says in a post that every last piece said must be directed at that person. When writing, the context and direction are usually clear. If not, ask, do not just assume. What I had said was "many women," and if you take that as personally directed at you, perhaps there is a reason you felt that way?

This statement IS directed at you: From what I've seen of you these past few days reading and posting, how you jump to assume and argue just about anything a man, any man here, says, very much appears that you have man hating issues. The way you comment on how someone does something that is clearly wrong, then turn around and do the exact same thing you just admonished someone else for doing creates an appearance in your postings that screams out inconsistent and overly emotional; irrational.

Some of the first postings I read from you when I first came here I thought were pretty well thought out and did not have the feel they have now, so I am hoping that maybe you're just having a bad week. None the less, do not take it out on others, especially if they have nothing to do with it. Or when someone was actually trying to defend you and other women, as I was trying to do.

Moving forward, I will refrain from directing anything at you until I am sure it will not be met only with hostility and negativity. I have enough drama IRL to deal with without seeking it out here. My apologies to the others here for even this bit of drama.

Peace.




tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/18/2011 7:53:11 PM)

quote:

But the bigger problem is your dismissal of biology. You know the joke that god gave man a brain and a penis- but only enough blood to run one at a time? Well, there's a certain truth to it. Sex is not a cold calculating act- well, not for most of at least. There's a reason we call it passion- and passion certainly implies a disregard of reason. So ask a guy who's aroused to think carefully about the mental state of his date? Can he solve a simple math problem- say the square root of 169? How about something more complex at that point? That's the whole point of passion- you're NOT thinking clearly. The Star Trek where Spock gets in a tussle with Kirk over a girl shows this so clearly- its the flaw in your argument. It just ignores human biology.


Passion can cause someone to kill... shall we just allow that as well? I would like to believe men have evolved past the cave man stereotype. You arent making that easy.

quote:

My problem when I came to the realization that my friend wasn't enjoying herself- well dammit- right before that- I THOUGHT SHE WAS! I was already old enough to have some decent judgement- but when I was younger? Would I expect other men to be able to make that realization at a moment when your brain is not thinking in a calculating fashion- but rather in a passionate mode?


So "my cock made me do it" is now a defense? Maybe a man shouldnt be allowed to have sex until they reach a certain age to ensure woman arent raped.

Im sorry, Sam, your response here sounds like blaming the woman because a man allowed the head of his cock to think for him.

quote:

No- it's unreasonable and one of my biggest beefs with the idea of well, if a woman says no- that shuts down the act. The biology just doesn't work that way- there's no switch to flip from hot and heavy to gee, let's talk about calculus in a heartbeat. And what other crime happens when you don't know you're committing it?



I know men who can. Are you saying some men are defective?

quote:

How does a cop distinguish between a domestic dispute and an assault?


Why should a cop have to make that distinction? Implying that a domestic dispute is different than assault got the City of Torrington sued.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torrington,_Connecticut#Crime_and_law_enforcement

quote:

this is the frat boys angry joking response.


Making a rape list is a response? Would a murder list also be a joke?

quote:

It's if I'm going to get accused of a crime I didn't commit- well, hell, I might as well go commit it. Men are getting a lot of pressure these days- parents want girls more than boys (hang around fertility clinics- comment off the NPR debate- and yes that goes for China as well)- boys are getting drugged in school in order to make them more tractable- women are graduating college in higher numbers and consequently getting bigger paychecks- and oh yeah- women think that all men are rapists given the whacko statistics out there. Again- there's a difference between a joke and an act. Do I know for certain this is joke? No, but given my experience- that's my bet.


Wow, I never took you for a misogynist, yet there us is, before my eyes.



kalikshama -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/18/2011 7:56:10 PM)

quote:

The biology just doesn't work that way- there's no switch to flip from hot and heavy to gee, let's talk about calculus in a heartbeat.


My experience with several partners is that using the safeword Red or saying "I need to stop" does bring things to a screeching halt. Sometimes a Yellow kills the mood for him as well, despite him knowing intellectually that it just means "dial back a bit."

quote:

let's say that I missed the signals and my friend had said when we began petting- by the way- I like it rough- and then had a change of heart when we're in bed, fumbling our clothes off- and she says- gee- no- not interested. She's changed her mind- but how the hell am I supposed to figure that out in that situation? I've got no problems with your definition by the way- you described an assault- and act of violence. I'm concerned about crossed signals which could lead to prosecution for rape, since it would count as "unwanted sexual penetration." which seems to be the definition used to accumulate those statistics.


I asked M what he'd do to prevent crossed signals if we wanted to do a "rape scene" and he discussed at length negotiation and prior planning. We also use safewords and he's stopped when I say "I need to stop."

But your situation doesn't sound like that.

A former play partner used to stop and remind me "No is not a safeword" as a way to check in to see what I meant by "no" which was NOT no in his case. I can understand how the ambiguity is confusing - perhaps don't have rough sex with someone who is not thoroughly proficient in the use of safewords.

quote:

It's if I'm going to get accused of a crime I didn't commit- well, hell, I might as well go commit it.


I used to have this attitude...as a teenager.







tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/18/2011 8:03:43 PM)

quote:

There is no argument about opinions and entitlement to them (although I can argue about the quality of opinions, but that is not what this thread is about), although the way I've been seeing you repeatedly present yours lately very much makes me feel as if you are pushing yours upon others and if they do not accept and agree with you, there will be hell to pay.

The same thing about making assumptions. In your very statement up there you assumed what I said was directed at you--to which I say "Pot, kettle, black." Just because the forum has a mechanism in place that directs ALL replies towards someone specific, does not mean ALL replies ARE directed at that person. Nor does it mean everything someone says in a post that every last piece said must be directed at that person. When writing, the context and direction are usually clear. If not, ask, do not just assume. What I had said was "many women," and if you take that as personally directed at you, perhaps there is a reason you felt that way?


quote:

One thing I agree completely with many of the women here


That narrows the field. 18 women posted to this thread, further narrowing that field. How many of the 18 is "many" to you? Out of those 18, half have limited their postings to one or two, the other half have been quite vocal. Now we are down to a number of 9 who you could say are the "women who post here" with "here" being this thread.

quote:

This statement IS directed at you: From what I've seen of you these past few days reading and posting, how you jump to assume and argue just about anything a man, any man here, says, very much appears that you have man hating issues. The way you comment on how someone does something that is clearly wrong, then turn around and do the exact same thing you just admonished someone else for doing creates an appearance in your postings that screams out inconsistent and overly emotional; irrational.


I believe you should read the above. As far as hating men, nothing could be further from the truth. And if you believe "dressing me down" in a thread will change my posting style, good luck on that belief.

Seems you are replying with your emotions this time.

quote:

Some of the first postings I read from you when I first came here I thought were pretty well thought out and did not have the feel they have now, so I am hoping that maybe you're just having a bad week. None the less, do not take it out on others, especially if they have nothing to do with it. Or when someone was actually trying to defend you and other women, as I was trying to do.



You were not defending us, you belittled us from almost the first by declaring us "emotional". Its an old trick, but it simply no longer works.

As far as my weeks, its been a delightful one, thank you.

quote:



Moving forward, I will refrain from directing anything at you until I am sure it will not be met only with hostility and negativity. I have enough drama IRL to deal with without seeking it out here. My apologies to the others here for even this bit of drama.


I agree, Maybe if you put down the drink glass....




xxblushesxx -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/18/2011 8:16:12 PM)

Sam's responses are scary.
Not because one man thinks this way (and to his credit I guess, is willing to say it)
But for the many who do think this way, and most of the women around them will never know. (unless they find out the hard way)
People considering a date with Sam can look at his forum posts and make up their minds if this is the type of gentleman they would want to spend time alone with. Women considering dates with the less vocal man may not have any warning until their views and ideas are pooh poohed and ignored, hopefully before things get sexual.
This "who would you rape" was not an angry joke, and should be treated with the seriousness it deserves.
Men who don't believe that no means no, should be treated with the care you give a loaded gun. If you keep playing with it, sooner or later, it's gonna go off.



tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/18/2011 8:19:05 PM)

Very true, blushes.

I do give Sam credit for speaking his mind. That doesnt mean I have to like what he says, agree with him, or accept what he is saying is valid.



kalikshama -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/18/2011 8:20:33 PM)

Here's my impression:

From what I've seen of Tazzy this past year reading and posting, how she jumps to assume and argue just about anything an intellectually dishonest poster, any intellectually dishonest poster here, says, very much appears that she has stupidity hating issues.

quote:

From what I've seen of you these past few days reading and posting, how you jump to assume and argue just about anything a man, any man here, says, very much appears that you have man hating issues.


Look outside of P&R and you'll see why I was gender-neutral as well as focused on intellectual dishonesty.

Edited for clarity





xxblushesxx -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/18/2011 8:24:32 PM)

Oh man...I hate it when people change other peoples' posts. (I don't care who's doing the changing, it's just confusing to easily confused people like me!)



tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/18/2011 8:25:33 PM)

But you are so cute when you are confused!



kalikshama -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/18/2011 8:30:32 PM)

Heinous

http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/vaw00/thurmanexcerpt.html

On June 10, 1983, Charles Thurman appeared at the Bentley-St. Hilaire residence in the early afternoon and demanded to speak to Tracey. Tracey, remaining indoors, called the defendant police department asking that Charles be picked up for violation of his probation. After about 15 minutes, Tracey went outside to speak to her husband in an effort to persuade him not to take or hurt Charles Jr. Soon thereafter, Charles began to stab Tracey repeatedly in the chest, neck and throat.

Approximately 25 minutes after Tracey's call to the Torrington Police Department *1526 and after her stabbing, a single police officer, the defendant Petrovits, arrived on the scene. Upon the arrival of Officer Petrovits at the scene of the stabbing, Charles Thurman was holding a bloody knife. Charles then dropped the knife and, in the presence of Petrovits, kicked the plaintiff Tracey Thurman in the head and ran into the Bentley-St. Hilaire residence. Charles returned from within the residence holding the plaintiff Charles Thurman, Jr. and dropped the child on his wounded mother. Charles then kicked Tracey in the head a second time. Soon thereafter, defendants DeAngelo, Nukirk, and Columbia arrived on the scene but still permitted Charles Thurman to wander about the crowd and to continue to threaten Tracey. Finally, upon approaching Tracey once again, this time while she was lying on a stretcher, Charles Thurman was arrested and taken into custody.

It is also alleged that at all times mentioned above, except for approximately two weeks following his conviction and sentencing on November 10, 1982, Charles Thurman resided in Torrington and worked there as a counterman and short order cook at Skie's Diner. There he served many members of the Torrington Police Department including some of the named and unnamed defendants in this case. In the course of his employment Charles Thurman boasted to the defendant police officer patrons that he intended to "get" his wife and that he intended to kill her.



tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/18/2011 8:35:34 PM)

This is the extreme. Chilling isnt it.



kalikshama -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/18/2011 8:40:38 PM)

At least some good came of it, though, I fear, a dismissive attitude towards "domestic" situations lingers, but not as extreme or prevalent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thurman_v._City_of_Torrington

Thurman v. City of Torrington, DC, 595 F.Supp. 1521 (1985) was a court decision concerning Tracey Thurman, a Connecticut homemaker who sued the city police department in Torrington, Connecticut, claiming a failure of equal protection under the law against her abusive husband Charles "Buck" Thurman. After Tracey Thurman was attacked, stabbed, and nearly killed by her husband in 1983, a subsequent civil lawsuit judged that the local police had ignored growing signs of domestic violence and had casually dismissed restraining orders and other legal bars to keep Buck Thurman away from his wife.[1]

The Thurman lawsuit brought about sweeping national reform of domestic violence laws, including the "Thurman Law" passed in Connecticut, making domestic violence an automatically arrestable offense, even if the victim does not wish to press charges.[2]



tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/18/2011 8:44:08 PM)

I think pretty much every state has their own version of that law now.



tj444 -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/18/2011 8:49:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx
Sam's responses are scary.
Not because one man thinks this way (and to his credit I guess, is willing to say it)
But for the many who do think this way, and most of the women around them will never know. (unless they find out the hard way)
People considering a date with Sam can look at his forum posts and make up their minds if this is the type of gentleman they would want to spend time alone with. Women considering dates with the less vocal man may not have any warning until their views and ideas are pooh poohed and ignored, hopefully before things get sexual.
This "who would you rape" was not an angry joke, and should be treated with the seriousness it deserves.
Men who don't believe that no means no, should be treated with the care you give a loaded gun. If you keep playing with it, sooner or later, it's gonna go off.

This is exactly why i left this discussion after reading Sam's posts especially, a chill ran down my back.. I felt the fight or flight response in my gut.. almost as if i was in physical danger myself.. those are the feelings he left me with.. but i know there are others that have that same attitude, which is why i am wary of men, i wish to avoid those such as him..

About the survey being a joke- From the article-
"But the fraternity's national director, Brian Warren, told the newspaper Wednesday that he was "shocked" when he learned of the survey."

"In a statement, the national Sigma Phi Epsilon office said "any behavior that demeans women is not tolerated" by the fraternity and that officials would take "appropriate action."

On the fraternity's Facebook page, a commenter who described himself as "one of the alumni that helped get the UVM charter back" after its 1993 suspension said he was not surprised by the latest news. "And I would support any decision to shut this chapter down," he wrote."




barelynangel -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/18/2011 8:52:23 PM)

That also was became a TV movie http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0097132/

It occured in 1982, and the movie didn't come out until almost 8 years later, when domestic violence and yes rape is included in that between a husband and a wife or nowadays more broad sense of bf/gf, domestic partners etc, wasn't taken as seriously as it is now.  I do believe this was one of the leading cases that started the domestic violence revolution so to speak and yes, this includes spousal or date rape.

angel







samboct -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/18/2011 8:54:35 PM)

Tazzy

"Passion can cause someone to kill... shall we just allow that as well? I would like to believe men have evolved past the cave man stereotype. You arent making that easy."

Let me point out that murder is a common impulse amongst humans- we used to solve a lot of differences that way, and some would argue that war is merely a more organized form of this impulse- so much for evolution!

However- to your point...the control of the impulse not to murder implies a calculating, rational action-i.e. if I kill someone, I can't live in this society- so killing is a bad idea. When was sex a calculating rational action- when you lay down $50 to a hooker and say I want to get laid? I don't know about you- but I don't want to be cold and calculating when I'm having sex.

"So "my cock made me do it" is now a defense? Maybe a man shouldnt be allowed to have sex until they reach a certain age to ensure woman arent raped.

Im sorry, Sam, your response here sounds like blaming the woman because a man allowed the head of his cock to think for him."

No, my response is simply that I know the difference between a cold, calculating action and passionate action. There are physiological changes that can be measures which also show these distinctions. Or is sex reduced to thinking about what color to paint the ceiling?

I listed a series of facts of challenges facing boys and men today. How does that make me a misogynist? Please note, I do not call you names and I would appreciate the same courtesy if you wish to debate.

Kalikshama-

You just made my point. We CM denizens over a certain age have learned better communication skills than we had when we were teenagers. How many people on this site stress that they're not interested in people under the age of 30 or 40 because people younger than that just don't have the experience. What you laid out with M shows a lot of forethought- but is it reasonable to expect youngsters to have this same consideration? As you noted, the attitude of gee- I might as well do the crime since I'm being accused of it is a teenage response. Well, how old are frat boys? It is an immature response.

Christina

Let me point out that the woman in the situation I described remains close with me to this day. Think she might know me a little better than you? All I described was a miscommunication between potential lovers. If you're trying to say that miscommunications don't occur or that my situation was highly unusual, I suspect that you have been with men who haven't been particularly honest about their past errors.


Sam



xxblushesxx -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/18/2011 8:59:00 PM)

Sam, it wasn't one post you made on here that I found scary. It was the sum of the whole. And honestly, I've known women who remained friends with their rapists. It happens quite often. Does that mitigate the crime? Perhaps, it can for a jury. But not for the woman (or man) it happened to.



tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/18/2011 9:04:15 PM)

Sam, im curious. Do you believe men cannot think correctly when in the "heat of the moment"?



kalikshama -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/18/2011 9:04:21 PM)

quote:

How many people on this site stress that they're not interested in people under the age of 30 or 40 because people younger than that just don't have the experience. What you laid out with M shows a lot of forethought- but is it reasonable to expect youngsters to have this same consideration? As you noted, the attitude of gee- I might as well do the crime since I'm being accused of it is a teenage response. Well, how old are frat boys? It is an immature response.


When I was but a teenager the USAF trusted me with millions of dollars worth of equipment and gave me a Top Secret security clearance. College age students are capable of far greater maturity than the low standards to which society holds them accountable.



tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/18/2011 9:06:34 PM)

Some frat "boys" are as old as 24. Not what I would consider "frat boys".



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