RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/18/2011 9:14:04 PM)

I pulled this out because this is what I had problems with.

quote:

Men are getting a lot of pressure these days-


Just these days? Women have been dealing with rape for as long as the sexes have known how to have sex. Why is the pressure different now and how is that a viable excuse?

quote:

parents want girls more than boys (hang around fertility clinics- comment off the NPR debate-


Again, I dont see a correlation here with someone that has been happening for centuries.

quote:

and yes that goes for China as well)- boys are getting drugged in school in order to make them more tractable-


No argument there. I still dont see the correlation.


quote:

women are graduating college in higher numbers and consequently getting bigger paychecks-


Is this a suggestion that women dont deserve that? (Im truly hoping not)

quote:

and oh yeah- women think that all men are rapists given the whacko statistics out there.


I dont agree with that, nor do I think the women on these boards believe that either. Men, as well as women, have the propensity to be many things, both good or bad. A man can have a loving relationship at home, and still be a rapist to other women.

quote:

Again- there's a difference between a joke and an act. Do I know for certain this is joke? No, but given my experience- that's my bet.


Let me ask this. If this was a list of the "Black person you would like to hang on campus" survey, would it still be considered a joke?



SweetCheri -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/18/2011 10:45:35 PM)

quote:

So Cheri- let's say that I missed the signals and my friend had said when we began petting- by the way- I like it rough- and then had a change of heart when we're in bed, fumbling our clothes off- and she says- gee- no- not interested. She's changed her mind- but how the hell am I supposed to figure that out in that situation? I've got no problems with your definition by the way- you described an assault- and act of violence. I'm concerned about crossed signals which could lead to prosecution for rape, since it would count as "unwanted sexual penetration." which seems to be the definition used to accumulate those statistics.
I thought I had made it quite clear. Let me make it a little more clear: any unwanted penetration is rape, do you understand? Cock, finger, dildo, carrot, or baseball bat; it makes no difference. If we are fucking and you're about to cum, it makes no difference.

If I don't want it for any reason, at any time, regardless of the circumstances or situation, and you do it, IT IS RAPE.

Hopefully that is clear enough for you.



samboct -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/19/2011 2:37:48 AM)

Tazzy

"Sam, im curious. Do you believe men cannot think correctly when in the "heat of the moment"?"

Not quite- I think that in the "heat of the moment" human judgement, for both men and women is impaired.

In terms of men getting pressure- is this a justification for rape? NO!

Is this a justification for jokes in poor taste? Well, justification may be the wrong word- but yeah. Please note that AFAIK- we're all guessing- I read the original article and its very short on facts. Hence the pressures I mentioned.

"and oh yeah- women think that all men are rapists given the whacko statistics out there.


I dont agree with that, nor do I think the women on these boards believe that either. Men, as well as women, have the propensity to be many things, both good or bad. A man can have a loving relationship at home, and still be a rapist to other women. "

I'll admit to some hyperbole here. But the recent headlines of one in five women will be raped in her lifetime implies that one in five men are rapists. Would you go out on a date with a guy knowing that there's a one in five chance he's a rapist? Also note that in the recent survey discussed below- roughly half the rapes under discussion happened at home. Stranger rapes are far less common. Hence the loving guy at home who goes out and rapes women? Probably very few and far between.

About the black guy being hanged....I must admit, I'm probably not very consistent on hate crimes. I guess something has to rise to the level of credible threat before I start thinking hate crime, because I have a strong aversion to restrictions on free speech by individuals. (Corporate speech can be throttled- if they can't be drafted- they can shut up.) Your point is well taken....but I'd probably still say- bad joke, not hate crime. Having been a TA at a school where the African American students admitted did not have the same level of preparation as other students- did this cause resentment? You bet...Didn't make it any easier when some of the African American students boasted that they could get lower grades than the white students and still get into med school.

Example of a hate crime- "Hey N..., we're gonna roast your ass like we did your buddy last week." I'll be the first to admit, that this stuff is difficult and that there are several slippery slopes one could go down.

Cheri- so I lean in to give an old lady a kiss on the cheek- and she grabs me and sticks her tongue in my mouth. I don't want this- but it's happened. Have I been raped? It's unwanted penetration by a sexual organ.....

From my perspective- I seem to be debating both fear and a lot of past history from female posters. I have a strong suspicion that had I posted what I have written as a female, I would have a very different response. My perception is that there's a lot of female chauvinism going on here. I have not trivialized rape, nor its consequences- I have only questioned what I believe to be statistics and news stories designed to inflame, rather than inform.

There's a new study from the CDC making the rounds that I've just taken a quick look at. Some of the findings are striking- such as most women who are raped, are raped before the age of 18. Also note that for most women, there is only one rapist in their life- the percentage of women who are raped by more than one individual is a lot lower. For men- the rapes happen before the age of 10. Also- 1 in 7 rapes are stranger assaults- I think this holds for both men and women. I must admit- this is smelling a lot like incest....

However, I have some severe doubts about the accuracy of the study. It's a telephone interview- not face to face. Well, anybody who's worked in the field will tell you that if you're going to be interviewing people about sexual history- the skill of the interviewer matters a great deal. I'm also really gun shy about "repressed memories" which given the age of males who report having been raped, would seem to be a concern. How the hell do you tell this stuff in a phone interview?

Here's a link to the study. http://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/nisvs/index.html

Sam



angelikaJ -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/19/2011 3:12:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: samboct


I'll admit to some hyperbole here. But the recent headlines of one in five women will be raped in her lifetime implies that one in five men are rapists. Would you go out on a date with a guy knowing that there's a one in five chance he's a rapist?


Sam


Sam, it implies no such thing.
Most men who rape are repeat offenders.
This isn't a case of his penis accidentally finding it's way into her vagina.
Rape doesn't accidentally occur and it is usually done with premeditation.

Rape is not about sex.
Rape is about power and control and exerting it in a very personal way.

As a woman who was raped, I can tell you that I have never wondered while considering dating someone: "I wonder if he ever raped anyone?"

Maybe some other women do wonder, but part of surviving rape is knowing that there are huge differences between the men who do and the men who don't commit these acts of violence against women.



FrostedFlake -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/19/2011 4:52:40 AM)

I have just spent a couple hours with the report so that others will be able to evaluate it quickly

quote:


Fact sheet               http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_FactSheet-a.pdf
Executive summary  http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Executive_Summary-a.pdf
Full report               http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf



quote:

Methods

National radom-dial telephone survey in English & Spanish age 18+ w/ letter in advance to 25%
81.3% cooperation rate 18,049 interviews of which 1,542 were incomplete (Ding-Ding, Stress) Median length of interview 24.7 minutes. 41.6% accepted $10 incentive otherwise donated. All interviewers were female w/ 18 hours training & practice.

Examined 3 types of violence by specific perps over the preceding 12 months.
1/ Sexual Violence.
2/ Stalking.
3/ Intimate partner Violence

Numbers
                            Ever                        Last year
Rape             18.3%    21,840,000    1.1%     1,270,000
Coercion       13%       15,492,000    2%        2,410,000
Grope/kiss     27.2       32,447,000    2.2%     2.600,000
Noncontact    33.7%    40,193,000    3%        3,532,000




Question : Sam : Have you any expertise in statistical studies? On what basis do you doubt the veracity of these numbers?

Please expound.




mons -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/19/2011 5:13:18 AM)

daddystayr

There are so many date rapes that are true and not reported.
the pain of rape and my sister was beaten just to be beaten he wanted
to make sure she remember the rape the beatings her head was the size of
a basketball!!!!!! I remember seeing her so small in that bed the shame the pain
her hurt makes me cry to this day!  No not all want money and fame
a rape victim is one whom is broken by the rapist it is all about power!
Not about fame, or civil suit  I wish i could time travel and tell her not to
walk that night, go somewhere else it destory my sister she never was the
same!  She passed away never that same person we knew!  Sometime
she came back and was herself but it made her hate and she never had that
emotional in her!  So please remember the human person, the sisters the
yes grandmothers yes they are raped to what fame can they get!  These college
men will raped children, anything they can reach trust me on this! Raped is rape!

The one good that happen she did not go to trial he hung himself in jail !
Whom know how many women he raped whom did not report it out of fear!!!!!!



BoxwineForBrunch -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/19/2011 5:50:27 AM)

this is a fast, general reply:

i actually went through the process of de-pledging from my frat when i was 20 because there was a date rape committed by this psychopathic little asshole at the frat house which was reported but went completely unpunished. even though i had no doubt about the guy's guilt (and he only half-ass bothered to deny it when it was just "us boys" around) since i did not witness any crime the strongest action available to me was to de-pledge and write some letters to the paper/administration/inter-fraternity council/etc.

there is an undeniable culture of gloating misogyny intrinsic in "greek" life and frat life is, in the end, a celebration of sickening privilege. i am not proud of this, but in my early 20s i could have lived with all of this easily enough right up to the part where someone was raped in the house and literally nobody seemed to care. it finally dawned on me that all the conditions in the house were right for sexual violence to be perpetrated with impunity and that not only had a young woman been violated by someone i called a "brother" but that this had certainly happened in the past and would certainly happen again.

i'm unapologetic about the fact that i scold people who make rape "jokes" even if that helps make me one of the dreaded "politically correct" people. it is doubly important for people to make as much noise as they can when rape is treated lightly on a college campus by frat boys because date and acquaintance rape are common in frat houses. the reason frat boys get away with it so often is pretty simple: universities prize their endowments above all else, and the greek system is a huge boost for them in maintaining alumni networks and in bringing first generation alums into the money circles. if people are silent or just shrug off instances like this, there is no incentive for schools to crack down on frat houses. if people who care about this issue make a big enough outcry that it begins to inconvenience the school and potentially disrupt the money flow, then schools start to care deeply about the sexual safety of their students and find deep reservoirs of outrage about sexual misconduct.

what it comes down to is this: when people express outrage and morally censure "rape jokes" like this, a lot of other people will roll their eyes and mutter "jesus stop being such a pain in the ass." for better or worse, to make progress, one sometimes HAS to be a pain in the ass. i'm always more than happy to look like an uptight politically correct son of a bitch when the alternative is silent complicity in a culture saturated with misogyny and sexual violence.



xxblushesxx -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/19/2011 6:04:54 AM)

"From my perspective- I seem to be debating both fear and a lot of past history from female posters. I have a strong suspicion that had I posted what I have written as a female, I would have a very different response."

You're wrong. You're not debating fear and I'm not sure you're dealing with past history of female posters but rather your very own. You don't believe in date rape. You don't believe it should be on the same level as a stranger raping you, and maybe you're right. Perhaps it should be considered more egregious, because it's usually someone the lady knows and trusts, rather than just a random incident.

I just re-read what I wrote, and yanno what? Perhaps you are debating fear. It does frighten me that a man can get to your age and have the beliefs you do. You appear to take rape, the threat of rape, and date rape very lightly. You're back-pedaling a bit, but even while doing so, you keep justifying your position. And yes, that does scare me.



tazzygirl -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/19/2011 6:15:17 AM)

I only have a moment, not long enought o give Sam's post complete consideration. As to the part blushes pulled out,

quote:

"From my perspective- I seem to be debating both fear and a lot of past history from female posters. I have a strong suspicion that had I posted what I have written as a female, I would have a very different response


I have never been raped. I have taken care of many women who have. Date rape wasnt a term people used when i was in my teens and early 20s.



samboct -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/19/2011 6:42:08 AM)

FF

Ph.D. in chemistry- and yes, I've done work on large studies of a population. I'm not going to give more detail since the study was in a specific area and I'll show up as an author.

The nature of the approach, i.e. letter and cash incentive already suggests that there may be a self selection of respondents taking place. Using round numbers- 1,000 people get a letter asking them to take part in a study on rape. Roughly one quarter (I think I have that right) respond. What about the people who didn't respond? Did they think-gee, I wasn't raped, why should I participate? Or did they think that gee- I've been raped, don't want to talk about it, don't want to take part. You can't know either way- but based on what potential letter was sent -and if it was from the authors of the survey- odds are you'd figure out that it's a survey on rape, wouldn't you?

In terms of interviewers- a whopping 18 hours of training...wow...and in 25 minutes, you're going to get enough information to have a lot of faith in it? The other problem with such a survey is although it's statistically easy to quantify the data, the type of questionnaire approach often misses a lot compared to a less structured interview. Plus, there can be bias based on the survey questions, which I didn't see. Often the design of the question and the language used gives you an idea of the answer the interviewer is looking for- notorious in political polls. People responses vary on whether or not they like the interviewer.

I know in medicine, that clinical trials for psych meds are being designed in a very sophisticated fashion to be given over to people that are poorly trained (cheap) and that these trials are often deeply flawed- that the person conducting the trial doesn't have the experience to figure out whether the diagnosis was correct, whether the patient was compliant, and whether or not there are any side effects- that type of work used to be done by highly trained individuals, but it was too expensive.

This report has all the hallmarks of a large, cheaply and quickly done, survey that will probably reflect the bias of the survey writer. How do you get someone to trust you with the intimate details of their sex life in less than half an hour?

With all that being said though, there are probably some areas of the report where if the conclusions cannot be fully trusted, due to the biases noted above, the report does provide some interesting looks at the nature of rape.

Angelika- the report does go into the relationships and the number of rapists victims have. As noted before, roughly half (or more) of female victims were raped prior to age 18 by someone they knew. This implies a family member. As such, it's hard to conceive of how family members could be serial rapists with large numbers of victims. I think there may be a vast gulf in between the people being reported as rapists in this study, and rapists in the general prison population. Right now, I'd be very interested in someone in the field's analysis of how to reconcile those seemingly disparate facts and whether people taking part in this study would actually have considered themselves raped- or whether that was a definition that the survey supplied.

Also- please accept my respect as someone who has the strength to come forward and share your experiences from a trying ordeal.

On the thread topic- I think I mentioned in previous posts about how Dartmouth dealt with what would now be called a hate crime- the supposed prank of the Review's masthead with an anti semitic slogan and "apology". I am reminded by the campus rabbi's response which he discussed on the Green, upon learning that one of his students was a member of the Review. The student came to him with a request to drop the course, because he thought the rabbi would flunk him. The rabbi assured the student that he would get the grade that his work deserved- and that he would likely get an A since his work to that point had been very good. The rabbi's comment was that as educators- our job is to teach our students- and that some need more teaching than others. I find it unfortunate that most schools and unfortunately many of the posters here do not share his wisdom.


Sam



samboct -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/19/2011 6:55:23 AM)

"read what I wrote, and yanno what? Perhaps you are debating fear. It does frighten me that a man can get to your age and have the beliefs you do. You appear to take rape, the threat of rape, and date rape very lightly. You're back-pedaling a bit, but even while doing so, you keep justifying your position. And yes, that does scare me."

Christina-please point out where I trivialized rape. I will admit to finding flaws in definitions and poorly done surveys which I think overstate the problem- but my fault finding is with the statistics. I have also noted that the frat boys potential joke was in very poor taste since it deals with a serious topic in a trivial fashion- the same as the murder of a black man would be. Am I trivializing murder as well?

When I was at Brandeis in my undergrad career, I knew a woman who had been raped. She was a housemate of a friend of mine, who was a soldier in the Israeli army. She was attacked at night, presumably by a resident of the town (don't think they ever caught the guy). The school's response was to set up a van and escort service (might have already been there- this is three decades ago)- to make sure that women had an escort when they traveled the campus at night. I was a van driver (volunteer) and I still think it was a good idea. So I will point out that rather than trivialize rape, I'm one of the people who volunteered of his time and services to help ensure that other women didn't get raped. In short, my track record does not gybe with your view of me.


Sam



xxblushesxx -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/19/2011 6:57:57 AM)

It will take me a long time to go through all your posts and point them out to you. But I will. Later. When I have time and the inclination to do so. Trivializing date rape is trivializing rape. What those men did is to trivialize rape, and you condoning it, also trivializes it.



BoxwineForBrunch -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/19/2011 7:10:13 AM)

quote:

About the black guy being hanged....I must admit, I'm probably not very consistent on hate crimes. I guess something has to rise to the level of credible threat before I start thinking hate crime, because I have a strong aversion to restrictions on free speech by individuals. (Corporate speech can be throttled- if they can't be drafted- they can shut up.) Your point is well taken....but I'd probably still say- bad joke, not hate crime. Having been a TA at a school where the African American students admitted did not have the same level of preparation as other students- did this cause resentment? You bet...Didn't make it any easier when some of the African American students boasted that they could get lower grades than the white students and still get into med school.


soooo....minorities are...sometimes "asking for it" if they get too uppity? fucking gross, dude.

quote:

From my perspective- I seem to be debating both fear and a lot of past history from female posters. I have a strong suspicion that had I posted what I have written as a female, I would have a very different response. My perception is that there's a lot of female chauvinism going on here. I have not trivialized rape, nor its consequences- I have only questioned what I believe to be statistics and news stories designed to inflame, rather than inform.


wow, you have a terrible case of entitled white male syndrome. how many websites and blogs do you regularly read that treat "misandry" as a real issue?

trivializing rape by making jokes about it is a shitty thing to do. period. to then fall back to vague attacks on the processes of particular studies (while simultaneously admitting you don't actually know what those processes were like but are only assuming they must have been flawed in particular ways) is insufferably weasel-like behavior.

ps bro, brandeis is so not a school worth namedropping.



SweetCheri -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/19/2011 7:19:46 AM)

Boxwine, when the time comes for me to have children, you are right near the top of my list for sperm donors.



BoxwineForBrunch -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/19/2011 7:24:58 AM)

aww thanks, but keep in mind i weighed a little over ten pounds when i was born, and my father was also an enormous baby. that may not be the determining factor, but if i were capable of childbirth it is certainly one of the first things i would think of when selecting for a potential sperm donor.
quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetCheri

Boxwine, when the time comes for me to have children, you are right near the top of my list for sperm donors.




SweetCheri -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/19/2011 7:34:05 AM)

Thank you for the very pertinent information. Allow me to rephrase.

When the time comes for Hannah Lynn, Suze, or Heather to have children...

[:D]



LaTigresse -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/19/2011 7:35:43 AM)

Oh good gawd! Can you imagine the creative cursing if Hannah was in labour?!?!?!?

I think I would pay money to be present at that birthing.[:D]



SweetCheri -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/19/2011 7:54:53 AM)

I could be persuaded to take video, for a nominal fee. [;)]



DaddySatyr -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/19/2011 7:59:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mons

Daddystayr

There are so many date rapes that are true and not reported.
the pain of rape and my sister was beaten just to be beaten he wanted
to make sure she remember the rape the beatings her head was the size of
a basketball!!!!!! I remember seeing her so small in that bed the shame the pain
her hurt makes me cry to this day!  No not all want money and fame
a rape victim is one whom is broken by the rapist it is all about power!
Not about fame, or civil suit  I wish i could time travel and tell her not to
walk that night, go somewhere else it destory my sister she never was the
same!  She passed away never that same person we knew!  Sometime
she came back and was herself but it made her hate and she never had that
emotional in her!  So please remember the human person, the sisters the
yes grandmothers yes they are raped to what fame can they get!  These college
men will raped children, anything they can reach trust me on this! Raped is rape!

The one good that happen she did not go to trial he hung himself in jail !
Whom know how many women he raped whom did not report it out of fear!!!!!!



If you think that I have no sensitivity to actual victims of rape, you haven't read my posts on this thread, entirely and/or you don't know me one little lick.



Peace and comfort,



Michael



samboct -> RE: Name who you would like to rape on campus (12/19/2011 8:00:09 AM)

"soooo....minorities are...sometimes "asking for it" if they get too uppity? fucking gross, dude."

From my perspective- you've just trivialized the problems inherent in affirmative action. All too often, a program which seems great in theory has flaws in execution- and I was one of the people on the front lines dealing with those flaws. Doesn't mean that I didn't agree with the aims of the program.

Since you're suggesting I was making vague attacks about the design of a study- I suggest you go back to college and ask for a refund because your reading comprehension skills would get an "F" from me.

And "ps bro, brandeis is so not a school worth namedropping. "

Woody Allen thought it was...

Sam



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