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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/26/2011 9:22:45 PM   
NiceButMeanGirl


Posts: 2756
Joined: 11/4/2011
From: Bellingham, WA U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
What do doms here think about doing things that seriously damages the sub's self-esteem.

I would never do that. Why should I make a sub feel worthless? If he feels worthless, then he's of no use to me because I don't want something/someone worthless in my life.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
I mean, of course bdsm is about verbal humiliation and lots of physical humiliation too, some may be also into public humiliation.

There is no "of course" about it. In MY relationships, I do NOT humiliate. It's just....not in me....to do it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
But as with every different sub, there has to be humiliations that is enjoyable, and don't make you think badly of yourself. And there are those, which will always hit a sensitive spot.

No there do not HAVE TO BE humiliations that are enjoyable. What if the sub and the Dom/me do not enjoy humiliation AT ALL? Then there are none that are enjoyable.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
What do doms think?

I'm a Domme & that's what I think.

NBMG

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Profile   Post #: 21
RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/26/2011 10:16:18 PM   
Dscouple7383


Posts: 32
Joined: 4/20/2011
Status: offline 		I guess the best way I can describe and sum up humiliation and self esteem is this:

The turn on in humiliation (to me) is if the woman has a very high self esteem already, and is used to having several compliments on her physical physique. This also works well for female or male subs who have a dominant role in their professional lives, and the humiliation is such a release as it represents such a drastic shift from their every day lives.

In a SEVERE generalization, the turn on comes from humiliating a "barbie" doll type, or a early Pam Anderson, or some woman who is universally accepted as "hot" or "beautiful". And the turn on may equally be as great for the sub, because they WANT to be told something different than they always hear. They DESIRE to be viewed as a dirty little slut, or a filthy whore, or whatever.....

Again, using broad generalizations, but I hope you catch my drift.

So....if a sub already has a poor self esteem, as a Dom, I feel it is important to eliminate all humiliation from his/her diet, until their self esteem has been built up to optimal levels. Even if they beg for it......they may not be aware of what that can do mentally to them, and it is up to the Dom or Domme to protect the sub from themselves at times.
A sub/slave is there to serve. They can't serve adequately if they are constantly broken and depressed. In my experience, a happy sub/slave, is one who will outperform all others.

And a happy owner makes a happy sub. And the circle of life goes on, and the lions dance, and Elton John sings his heart out, and the curtains close....credits roll.....




(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/26/2011 11:33:32 PM   
Jobsdone


Posts: 20
Joined: 8/20/2004
Status: offline 		Humiliation is a kink (for the upmteenth time).  Personally, I do not want anything to do with damaging My sub's self esteem.  Irregardless, of the type of the relationship, (romantic, play-partner, NSA-does that really ever exist?) I want the sub to realize her self worth and take pride her her condition and position.  That's just Me.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

What do doms here think about doing things that seriously damages the sub's self-esteem.
I mean, of course bdsm is about verbal humiliation and lots of physical humiliation too, some may be also into public humiliation.
But as with every different sub, there has to be humiliations that is enjoyable, and don't make you think badly of yourself. And there are those, which will always hit a sensitive spot.

What do doms think?



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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/27/2011 1:44:13 AM   
troppo65


Posts: 21
Joined: 12/23/2011
Status: offline 		My sub does have self esteem issues, we use our our relationship to build it up.

There are specific rules that if broken trigger a training session that is aimed at building up self esteem in that area.

(in reply to Jobsdone)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/27/2011 2:51:15 AM   
CynthiaWVirginia


Posts: 1915
Joined: 2/28/2010
From: West Virginia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

BK, I don't understand what you are saying really.

Humiliation is a kink.

Take for example, to me, a blow job is humiliation.

But for others, it may not be.

But I get turn on, because it feels humiliating, and that's my kink.

But take another kink, while other people may enjoy public display and enjoy the thrill of it, rather than feel a rush of humiliation of doing it, I would feel extremely humiliated to publicly display my self to strangers. And it would hurt my self-esteem.



There is a difference between humiliation as in humbling someone, and humiliation as in causing mortification and feelings of degradation. Humbling is hawt; I like my sub to feel beneath me and (lovingly)...used.

I am NOT into degradation. It would push too many bad buttons...in me. Sometimes I have more hard limits than my boy.

How important is a sub's self-esteem? Very.

Do I "humiliate" him in public. Yes, whenever it pleases me, but it doesn't mean that others are roped in as unwilling participants. For instance, yes, sometimes I make him wear silky panties under his jeans because I want him to be hyper aware of his arse and that it belongs to ME. I would never "humiliate" him by outing him to others. In other words, if a sub is in some mall jumping up and down on one leg while barking like a dog...it won't be MY man.

He is to become...more...because he is mine, not less. I see him as my slave, boyfriend, male wife, knight and token child all at the same time. We are in a symbiotic relationship; if I forced him to do "things that seriously damages the sub's self-esteem" I would be mismanaging our relationship, IMO, creating a toxic environment for us both.

quote:

How about if humiliating IS your kink, and then your sub enjoys all the humiliation you give her too much, does this mean, it becomes boring and less enjoyable because she's having fun with it.

Since I define the humiliation I enjoy as humbling someone, and yes, my boy enjoys being made to feel like my servant...the power exchange intensifies and both of us feed. How could this possibly make it less enjoyable for us? My enjoyment comes from getting service, by his obedience to my will, and from seeing his need to serve me catch fire and fling him deeply into subspacing; it is not sparked by his enduring something only for my pleasure, where he is angry and hates every minute of it. I love seducing him into craving what I like. I enjoy the challenge.

(in reply to Greta75)
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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/27/2011 4:27:53 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CynthiaWVirginia


How important is a sub's self-esteem? Very.

He is to become...more...because he is mine, not less. I see him as my slave, boyfriend, male wife, knight and token child all at the same time. We are in a symbiotic relationship; if I forced him to do "things that seriously damages the sub's self-esteem" I would be mismanaging our relationship, IMO, creating a toxic environment for us both.


^This for me says it all. Very well said


(in reply to CynthiaWVirginia)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/27/2011 4:45:26 AM   
Greta75


Posts: 9968
Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:

How important is a sub's self-esteem? Very.

He is to become...more...because he is mine, not less. I see him as my slave, boyfriend, male wife, knight and token child all at the same time. We are in a symbiotic relationship; if I forced him to do "things that seriously damages the sub's self-esteem" I would be mismanaging our relationship, IMO, creating a toxic environment for us both.
quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: CynthiaWVirginia


How important is a sub's self-esteem? Very.

He is to become...more...because he is mine, not less. I see him as my slave, boyfriend, male wife, knight and token child all at the same time. We are in a symbiotic relationship; if I forced him to do "things that seriously damages the sub's self-esteem" I would be mismanaging our relationship, IMO, creating a toxic environment for us both.


^This for me says it all. Very well said


I agree, shows how much she cares for her sub.

(in reply to MariaB)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/27/2011 4:46:04 AM   
CynthiaWVirginia


Posts: 1915
Joined: 2/28/2010
From: West Virginia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB


quote:

ORIGINAL: CynthiaWVirginia


How important is a sub's self-esteem? Very.

He is to become...more...because he is mine, not less. I see him as my slave, boyfriend, male wife, knight and token child all at the same time. We are in a symbiotic relationship; if I forced him to do "things that seriously damages the sub's self-esteem" I would be mismanaging our relationship, IMO, creating a toxic environment for us both.


^This for me says it all. Very well said




Thank you, MariaB.

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/27/2011 5:36:42 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		Sorry Greta, I think your basic premise is all wrong. Humiliation does not necessarily harm a sub's self esteem, in fact it can enhance it.

The trick is learning your sub well enough so you know when to do what. That means your sub has to have allowed you into his/her mind, and clued you in on the sensitive "don't go there" spots.

Even with full knowledge, a dominant can hit a bad emotional trigger w/o intending to. Which means a dom needs to know how to build his/her sub back up pronto.

Humiliation done without proper knowledge is every bit as irresponsible as wielding a whip w/o training. Physical welts heal, deep emotional cuts may not.

Any dominant who knowingly sets out to harm their sub in *any* way (physical or emotional) is abusive, in just about everyone's opinion.


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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/27/2011 6:03:11 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Greta, you're also missing the importance of finding out ahead of time if you're compatible. If the dom really gets off on humiliating the sub, but it's harmful to the sub - then they should have discovered this early on while talking about what each other likes and dislikes. And then concluded that they don't have enough in common to make the relationship work.

So if a guy loves getting blow jobs, and the sub can't do it, then they should wish each other good luck and keep looking.


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Cynical and proud of it!


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Profile   Post #: 30
RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/27/2011 7:06:36 AM   
Greta75


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Joined: 2/6/2011
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quote:


Greta, you're also missing the importance of finding out ahead of time if you're compatible. If the dom really gets off on humiliating the sub, but it's harmful to the sub - then they should have discovered this early on while talking about what each other likes and dislikes. And then concluded that they don't have enough in common to make the relationship work.

Yea, the thing is, I do enjoy humiliation, and can take alot of verbal abuse and humiliation, but...., I think, because I enjoy it, it was alot of fun at first, as time goes by, it becomes less enjoyable for him, then he starts want to focus on areas where his getting genuine humiliation out of me. There lies the issue. And anyway, things are not straightforward when emotions are involved. The other thing is, or it could be coincidence that the things he enjoys more are stuffs I genuinely feel humiliated about. But I really posted this for him to see what other doms think, because in his opinion, he believes that humiliations is suppose to hurt self-esteem, that's the point of humiliation.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/27/2011 7:43:12 AM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline 		Humiliation and self esteem are not necessarily entwined. I can humiliate her, degrade her, fold, spindle, mutilate, make crawl, beg, drink it's own piss, treat it like the dirty ruled by it's cunt slut that it is...but none of that has to have anything at all with self esteem.

Contradictory-you betcha.

Why does it work, how?
Easy. The first step is to understand that it's just not anyone humilating/degrading her, it's me, and that makes the giving and receiving of it an act of love...and she knows this to the core of who she is. Second, and maybe most of all, I'm careful about the areas I pick to degrade her on.
She, like everyone else, has sensitive spots, things she really really has some esteem issues around. I don't hit those. I don't want to make her feel worse about herself. I want her to see how sexy and wonderful she is in my eyes, even if it's while she's drinking my cum from her own asshole.
I wouldn't take a fat girl who was sensitive about it and make fun of her for her weight, tear into her about size, etc...the same way I wouldn't make fun of a girl with a cleft palate-I'm cruel, but prefer not to destroy my toys but rather keep them in tip top shape.
I would call her a degenerate whore while she begged to be sodomized and give forced AtM, but that has a lot more to do with rather than internals.

Now, I ain't speaking for anyone else, but this cat would never be with a gal with real low self esteem. Why would I wanna be? I like gals I'm proud of, proud to own, proud to know, proud to share my life with.
And frankly, my ego is tied into it too, I mean, who wants to get a slave that would be willing to serve anyone? I want a gal who's gonna inspire me, take me to heights, make me want to be a better dom, better human, better man.
Now that's a worthy goal.
And if she happens to be a perverted lit cunt who needs to be held in tight chains, get treated like the fuckhole slut it is, suck ass, drink from the toilet and crawl and whimper-then all the better.
But that's just me.



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HST

(in reply to Greta75)
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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/27/2011 8:01:38 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline 		Humiliation is so broad, so wide and so colorful and yet its probably one of the most confusing words used within BDSM. I think of it as humbling even if the dictionary definition of the word varies from my thoughts on it. Degrading can also be humbling.

If I tell my sub off firmly and tell her to think seriously about her actions because I am annoyed then I have humbled her. She feels guilty, responsible and knows she has displeased me.
If I take my male sub out in sexy undies under his pants, he feels humiliated and self conscious. Can anyone else tell he's wearing ladies undies under his clothes? what if he got rushed to hospital and the nurses discovered and so on?
If I put a cock gag in his mouth and sit on his face and tell him he's nothing but my dirty little pleasure whore and there for my pleasure only, Im degrading him and yet he feels very humbled by that act.
All of these words have a place within the things that we do but NEVER should it be mental cruelty used to knock self esteem. Knocking someones self esteem is in my opinion a form of abuse and therefore has not place within BDSM.
I listen to my vanilla neighbor telling his wife that she's a revolting fat cow and how no other man would ever give her a second glance and I see no relationship with them to anything I ever get up to. To knock someones self esteem you have to feel some sort of revolution towards that person and I would never want to scene with someone who revolted me.
There is also a big element of control going on in relationships where one partner is playing around with his partners self esteem but again it has nothing to do with BDSM and all to do with abuse.

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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/27/2011 9:00:33 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
But I really posted this for him to see what other doms think, because in his opinion, he believes that humiliations is suppose to hurt self-esteem, that's the point of humiliation.


It doesn't matter what everyone else thinks. If what he thinks isn't any good for you, then you need to set up strong boundaries about this.


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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/27/2011 9:17:07 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

Yea, the thing is, I do enjoy humiliation, and can take alot of verbal abuse and humiliation, but...., I think, because I enjoy it, it was alot of fun at first, as time goes by, it becomes less enjoyable for him, then he starts want to focus on areas where his getting genuine humiliation out of me. There lies the issue. And anyway, things are not straightforward when emotions are involved. The other thing is, or it could be coincidence that the things he enjoys more are stuffs I genuinely feel humiliated about. But I really posted this for him to see what other doms think, because in his opinion, he believes that humiliations is suppose to hurt self-esteem, that's the point of humiliation.


You mentioned public humiliation in your first post. Is this where he's going? Many, if not most, of the posters here are opposed to involving the public in their kink.


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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/27/2011 9:29:13 AM   
LillyBoPeep


Posts: 6873
Joined: 12/29/2010
Status: offline 		Maria, there's a local couple who explained it as "humbling" too, which made it easier for some to unnderstand. For a lot of people, "humiliate" still is associated with self-esteem damage, which isnnn't necessarily what it's about here. And the things that humiliate one person won't be the same for another. Like the OP said blowjobs are humiliating to her, but they are one of my favorite things and aren't humiliating to me at all. And things that do humiliate can change over time, so it's nnot a monolithic concept you can just point at and say "this is humiliation."

My self esteem was really important to my Former, and it was also connected to his opinion of me. But "fixing" me wasn't a major focus in our relationship. He just got to know me and made adjustments or tweaks where he wanted. But a big part of it, as I've probably said elsewhere, was the contrast between the states - he could feel A about me, and make me feel Z, etc etc. And no matter how far he put me down, he always rebult. So it wasn't about making me feel permanently low, because he wasn't interested I owning a shadow, he wanted a fully-featured possession who enriched his life. Permanently harming someone may not be sound - even with a pet, it's generally a bad idea. :p

Plus he liked the power to make someone respond to him in such a way. The ability to take a person from A to Z and back again. it wouldn't have been good if it left me in a broken heap forever because, well, there wouldn't be contrast anymore. He knew how to really make me feel horrible, in a way that was harmful, but those things he'd apologize for. (He didn't thinnk he was beyond apologies just because he was on top.) So there was a clear delineation.

Part of that, of course, is understanding how you work together. I do believe people derive value in a bunch of different ways. Someone can fid fulfillment inn something that others might despise, and visa versa. If humiliating things damage you, then it's probably not wise to get with someone who needs those things. Get to know a person and see what makes that person tick and see if your ticks work well together. These are consensual relationships at the end of the day.

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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/27/2011 12:01:37 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

BK, I don't understand what you are saying really.

Humiliation is a kink.

Take for example, to me, a blow job is humiliation.

But for others, it may not be.

But I get turn on, because it feels humiliating, and that's my kink.

But take another kink, while other people may enjoy public display and enjoy the thrill of it, rather than feel a rush of humiliation of doing it, I would feel extremely humiliated to publicly display my self to strangers. And it would hurt my self-esteem.


I'll be real helpful and say I agree with this and with BKSir.

Re your OP (and BKSir's point), low self-esteem in my sub is a reflection of me and our general relationship together. So yeah, it's important to me that she's happy, healthy and confident in her place as my property - absolutely!

That said and re your post here, humiliation is a matter of whose perspective you consider is important. That many of the things my girl does or especially that I do to her or make her do are quite normal and fulfilling for both of us but might well be regarded as humiliating to some 3rd party peeking through a window, for example.

And yeah, that vanilla standard or perspective often comes out on BDSM discussion boards, otherwise words like "humiliation" wouldn't even get used.

Focus.

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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/27/2011 3:48:37 PM   
RexDarcy


Posts: 597
Joined: 6/23/2010
From: Arizona
Status: offline 		FR

Humiliation isn't My thing. Any sub that I am involved with, I like her self-esteem to be healthy.

I want her to know what her strengths are. And where she needs improvement; make strives to make herself better for her own benefit.

If she's the above, she brings less baggage and more psitive into. The relationship.

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"I am who I am today because of choices I made yesterday."

"To bring the pieces back together - rediscover communication."

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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/27/2011 3:55:45 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:


Greta, you're also missing the importance of finding out ahead of time if you're compatible. If the dom really gets off on humiliating the sub, but it's harmful to the sub - then they should have discovered this early on while talking about what each other likes and dislikes. And then concluded that they don't have enough in common to make the relationship work.

Yea, the thing is, I do enjoy humiliation, and can take alot of verbal abuse and humiliation, but...., I think, because I enjoy it, it was alot of fun at first, as time goes by, it becomes less enjoyable for him, then he starts want to focus on areas where his getting genuine humiliation out of me. There lies the issue. And anyway, things are not straightforward when emotions are involved. The other thing is, or it could be coincidence that the things he enjoys more are stuffs I genuinely feel humiliated about. But I really posted this for him to see what other doms think, because in his opinion, he believes that humiliations is suppose to hurt self-esteem, that's the point of humiliation.



So what you are saying is that he wants to cause you actual harm, and you are questioning that?  While humiliation is not "my thing," anyone who believes in damaging your self esteem for real is probably a bit of a jerk, and leaning towards an abuser.  Someone who is abusive will damage their partner's self esteem as a means of alienating them from others, making them think the abuser is the only one who will ever "care about" them.  That is NOT what BDSM humiliation is about, as you can see from what everyone is saying.

If his idea of humiliation and yours are as different as you are pointing out, YOU have the right to speak up and say so, and if he won't listen, you have the right to walk. 

(in reply to Greta75)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/27/2011 4:13:11 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Not to mention that she's in Singapore, a nation with extremely strict rules about what it and is not permitted in public. So she's risking arrest, imprisonment and public canings in order for this online dom to get his jollies.

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Profile   Post #: 40
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