RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom?

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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/27/2011 4:50:18 PM

Greta75

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

Not to mention that she's in Singapore, a nation with extremely strict rules about what it and is not permitted in public. So she's risking arrest, imprisonment and public canings in order for this online dom to get his jollies.

His not an online dom.
We been living together for 2+ years.

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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/27/2011 4:59:25 PM

Greta75

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quote:

So what you are saying is that he wants to cause you actual harm, and you are questioning that? While humiliation is not "my thing," anyone who believes in damaging your self esteem for real is probably a bit of a jerk, and leaning towards an abuser. Someone who is abusive will damage their partner's self esteem as a means of alienating them from others, making them think the abuser is the only one who will ever "care about" them. That is NOT what BDSM humiliation is about, as you can see from what everyone is saying.

Thanks for laying it out clearly like this. I hope he is reading this. The stuffs that I find it hard to swallow and would think less of myself about, are often the things he enjoys the most. I guess, we are just not compatible.

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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/27/2011 5:13:30 PM

Greta75

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quote:

You mentioned public humiliation in your first post. Is this where he's going? Many, if not most, of the posters here are opposed to involving the public in their kink.

I like things to be just one on one, I don't like third parties in our plays, I don't like attending munches, I just like it private, and I don't like innocently exposing myself in public areas. Or to an innocent vanilla third party.
These are areas where we fight alot about.
I know I have to make a decision to let go and stop forcing situations that can't be changed. He can't help what his into. And I can't help that I do not match those kinks.

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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/27/2011 6:15:04 PM

littlewonder

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Well then you have a decision to make....

either stay with him and get used to those things because he ain't gonna change.

Or leave and find someone you are more compatible with by taking your time and really getting to know someone before you jump in.

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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/27/2011 9:02:47 PM

LanceHughes

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And, once again, Lance copies part of his signature block into his post for permanence:

"Advice is what we ask for when we already know the answer, but wish we didn't." Erica Jong

ETA: WOW! It took less than three pages before we got to this point. Usually it's like 30 or 40 pages. Good work, all!

< Message edited by LanceHughes -- 12/27/2011 9:05:26 PM >

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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/27/2011 9:20:48 PM

LafayetteLady

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Didn't these things get discussed two years ago? Life is too short to spend it letting someone make you feel bad about yourself. Next time it comes up, say no and let him know it is not acceptable to you and if he can't have respect for you, then he can leave. If it is his place, then let him know you will leave.

People do this because it makes them happy. In a relationship, we all (dominants included) at times do things we don't like or aren't happy about, but when you spend more time unhappy than happy, it's time to cut your losses. Please do it before he makes you feel so bad about yourself, you lose a lot of years trying to feel good again.

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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/27/2011 9:39:14 PM

Greta75

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quote:

Didn't these things get discussed two years ago?

Discussed over and over again, always tried to compromise, find middle ground, but somehow, his just unhappy with what he agreed to, eventually, and old issues will come out over and over again. He knew from day one I did not have as big of a spectrum as him in bdsm. In the beginning, he said he doesn't matter. Hell, even right now, doms always say it doesn't matter who are talking to me when I tell em my limits, I feel like at the back of their minds, they are just thinking, they'll eventually be able to move those limits, however gently or slowly. It's frustrating.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 12/27/2011 9:42:14 PM >

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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/27/2011 11:49:25 PM

lizi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

Discussed over and over again, always tried to compromise, find middle ground, but somehow, his just unhappy with what he agreed to, eventually, and old issues will come out over and over again. He knew from day one I did not have as big of a spectrum as him in bdsm. In the beginning, he said he doesn't matter. Hell, even right now, doms always say it doesn't matter who are talking to me when I tell em my limits, I feel like at the back of their minds, they are just thinking, they'll eventually be able to move those limits, however gently or slowly. It's frustrating.

That is frustrating, to have to constantly uphold your boundaries and enforce them. I do think it's true that Dominants many times take the stance that whatever an s type says is a limit is something they'll push toward changing if they want to. That happens in vanilla relationships too - people keep pushing toward something that they want, and disregard the wishes of their partner and the partner's frustration at feeling constantly under siege.

I think the two of you are mismatched. It's exhausting on one side to constantly be looking and pushing for what gets you going, and it's exhausting on the other side to constantly have your wishes ignored and belittled. Not a healthy situation.

My Dom does not seek to lower my self esteem and we do not practice humiliation in any manner which would do that. He wants me to be happy and productive, he wants to be proud of me. He wishes to have property that is envied by others. I work hard in the things I do because I yearn for his approval and he gives it to me quite often. He's earned my trust by not tearing me down little by little, or pushing me into things that I don't want. I couldn't be with a man who did. Your guy sounds kind of a like a dick to keep insisting on pushing you into the mold that suits him while it harms you...and then again I know nothing of his side or of what the two of you do.

In general, I'd detest being put into the same position over and over of having to defend myself or have myself feel like crap. It would never work for me, I strive to live a productive life where I'm at peace. That is what makes me happy. If I had a partner that didn't assist me in feeling productive and peaceful I'd leave him behind as he'd have nothing to give me in the end.

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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/28/2011 4:37:46 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

I don't like innocently exposing myself in public areas. Or to an innocent vanilla third party.

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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/28/2011 4:48:19 AM

seababy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

I don't like innocently exposing myself in public areas. Or to an innocent vanilla third party.

I'm with you there. Thats a walk away for me.
What ever problems the OP and her dominant may have, the unsuspecting public definately didn't get to have their limits respected.

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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/28/2011 5:11:26 AM

Kana

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

quote:

Didn't these things get discussed two years ago?

Discussed over and over again, always tried to compromise, find middle ground, but somehow, his just unhappy with what he agreed to, eventually, and old issues will come out over and over again.

Then you know what to do. Nothing sucks more than going round and round on the same old thing, refighting the same battle ad nauseum.
From a dominant POV, it's amazingly frustrating.

Here's my question-Why would you want to stay with a dom who's needs/desires/wants/goals you cannot fulfill? Where is the satisfaction in that?
And why would he want to keep a slave who cannot fulfill his needs? Sounds like selfishness to me.

< Message edited by Kana -- 12/28/2011 5:31:09 AM >

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RE: How many doms think it's okay to hurt [a sub's] sel... - 12/28/2011 5:12:50 AM

MrRodgers

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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I don't think Master would have bothered being with me if I had really low self esteem. Sure there are some things I'm self conscious about and there are bouts when my esteem may be lower than usual but in general if I had low self esteem he would not have been interested in me to begin with.

I also don't think he has any interest in lowering my esteem. He more or less would rather build up my esteem. Although he's big into humiliation, if he thought it would cause me major problems in life he would not do it. He doesn't wish to destroy us.

You've got it kiddo. It has been my desire to show (teach) where sub/slaves can always be a better person, better learner/worker and to that end, I aim to have them proud of the successes. Way, way back, they were all college educated one advanced.

Humiliation as a kinky fetish is a lot like humor...timing and delivery. So I do believe it is only in the moment not something that is to say permanently modify a person feelings or behavior or...self esteem.

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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/29/2011 2:05:59 AM

depravedslave

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The fact that the sexual satisfaction of one human being is dependent on the ability for him or her to be an object of gratification to another human being is inherently humiliating because the behavior that results is usually irrational and it reveals a profound weakness.

As the vulnerability is exploited in more extreme ways, these acts carry with them an increasing power to both humble and humiliate. And, anything that accentuates the situation in which the submissive has found him- or herself is going to maintain and accelerate his or her vicious circle of increasing arousal and depravity. I know that, for myself, once the process has started, I'm helpless to stop it. I know my place, but being reminded just makes me sink further into it. A part of me always fights it, but I know that I was born this way and that these things are immutable.

< Message edited by depravedslave -- 12/29/2011 2:17:58 AM >

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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/29/2011 5:15:16 AM

Greta75

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quote:

Here's my question-Why would you want to stay with a dom who's needs/desires/wants/goals you cannot fulfill? Where is the satisfaction in that?
And why would he want to keep a slave who cannot fulfill his needs? Sounds like selfishness to me.

The answer to both your questions is we both *think* we are inlove with each other. BDSM really only makes up maybe 20% of our lives together.
But, it becomes, if I love him, I should drop all my limits, and of course I feel if he loves me, he should respect and honour my limits.
Brick wall!

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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/29/2011 5:16:19 AM

sheisreeds

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What we say in my relationship when we've hit a sore spot is, "I don't ever want to really hurt you".

It's kinda the theme of all of this.

I'm gonna deviate a little from what other people have said. You've been living together for two years, so there is something keeping you there. If it's love, and that feeling is mutual it's worth trying to work it out.

Men often need things to be made explicitly clear.

If there isn't love in the relationship, or you are feeling this way all the time you have some decisions to make as things are getting toxic.

I find my limits move around more freely when there is trust, and I feel supported by my partner. He feels the same.

While important in all relationships, in BDSM it is paramount, and this guy doesn't seem to get that just pushing doesn't equate to trust.

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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/29/2011 5:22:51 AM

thursdays

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
But I really posted this for him to see what other doms think, because in his opinion, he believes that humiliations is suppose to hurt self-esteem, that's the point of humiliation.

I think he's a jackass.

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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/29/2011 8:52:15 AM

SilverBoat

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What if the Dom/sub factor is removed from the question? Suppose that it's reframed as any one person doing damage to another's self-esteem, via intentional (or accidental) humiliation?

Sure, it'd be easy to begin a litany of maybe thousands of examples where that occurs to millions of people, outside of the kinked setting we're discussing here. Everything from verbal or physical abuse between whole nations or ethnic groups, to abusively disfunctional boss/worker, parent/child, gang/scapegoat, spouse/victim relationships.

In some cases, there have been whole nations egging-on the humiliation, convinced that some crime (excess pride sometimes) justifies the 'superior' group taking the other group down a peg. And there's been serious arguments made that bashing down conquered groups' self-esteem makes them less likely to revolt, fight back, etc. And the groups arguing that claimed the moral high-ground because it saved their members' lives, affirmed the natural human order, blah, blah. In the course of history, though, there's often been some mass-murderous or global-warfare repercussions to that.

Scaling those contexts to individual relationships, though, and even to the Dom/sub situation of the OP, I'd have to opine that attacking self-esteem is at least ethically questionable, if not fraught with moral and practical hazards. Even in high-level peer-peer negotiations, one of the basic tenets is to leave the other party a face-saving 'out' when you've got them legally or financially cornered.

And as much as I understand the frisson of schadenfreude, when somebody who's self-esteem seems undeservedly elevated stumbles, between two people who at least supposedly have a constructive personal relationship and stake in each other's well-being, undermining self-esteem doesn't look like it would ever be productive.

Yeah, there is humiliation 'play', and some people get off to that, even thrive on it as proof that they're strong enough to endure, or of dedication, or whatever. (I don't 'get' it, not My kink, on either side, but not gonna judge). But if it's intentionally, or even tangentially, diminishing their self-esteem, that doesn't seem to qualify as "healthy" and could be "harm."

That's rehashing what some other folks have posted, I'm sure, and maybe not as clearly stated or conclusive as I'd prefer, but I'm still pondering about the matter. On both gut-level grokking and thought-through basis, taking-down self-esteem seems fundamentally wrong, even or especially in D/s context.

SB

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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/29/2011 9:21:10 AM

littlewonder

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It sounds to me like either you both never bothered to discuss these limits when you were first getting to know each other and jumped into a relationship way too quickly....

or one of you decided that the limits weren't the important and said "he/she will change and I won't have to worry about those silly little limits".

Either way, if neither of you will budge then you're at an impasse....stay and put up with it or leave and find someone more compatible with your limits and this time talk to the person you want to be involved with instead of letting your hormones get the better of you.

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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/29/2011 10:26:48 AM

DesFIP

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quote:

ORIGINAL: depravedslave

The fact that the sexual satisfaction of one human being is dependent on the ability for him or her to be an object of gratification to another human being is inherently humiliating because the behavior that results is usually irrational and it reveals a profound weakness.

Except not. Because neither of us views it as weak. We think of it as an incredibly powerful and strong force that helps keep the relationship strong.

Which brings up the question of why you do something that has you so conflicted about yourself. Because that doesn't appear healthy.

Greta, call him on his lying. Tell him that he lied to you in the beginning, he's done nothing since then but continue to lie to you and as a result you have lost all respect and trust in him. When he starts up on areas he promised not to go to, say RED and walk away.

You don't have strong boundaries. Every time you allow him to do this you teach him that your no means yes. You have helped create this mess. It is equally your problem to be someone who keeps her word. Allowing someone to break your hard limits repeatedly without any consequence teaches them that you're a liar also.

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RE: How important is a sub's self-esteem to a dom? - 12/29/2011 3:34:58 PM

Greta75

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quote:

You don't have strong boundaries. Every time you allow him to do this you teach him that your no means yes. You have helped create this mess. It is equally your problem to be someone who keeps her word. Allowing someone to break your hard limits repeatedly without any consequence teaches them that you're a liar also.

The simple reason is, he said if I have not try it before, how do I know if I like or don't like. So sometimes, I said, fine, I'll try it, and if I really hate it, then I don't want to do it again. It became a point where I was saying no to alot of his new suggestions and in a relationship, I felt some sort of compromise is required, and that was my compromise.
Perhaps bdsm cannot be treated like vanilla, because in vanilla relationships, you bend some too, where it is possible, because you care about the other party.

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