Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Conservative != Clueless


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Conservative != Clueless Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Conservative != Clueless - 1/23/2012 7:24:36 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		No, Tea = Naive.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Conservative != Clueless - 1/24/2012 1:11:15 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

His was a poorly worded message.

But the Tea is demographically predominantly people new to politics. It's why they hold some ideas that can't happen (as the freshmen Teas found out when they got to Washington) for legal reasons or simply reality.

He's right. They were created through manipulation to do their puppetmasters' bidding. It's the latest emotional sway from a long line of them aimed at simplistic positions.

It will fade. It's done what it was intended to do, but also got out of hand. They don't have the platform to form a new party for real, so gradually, selective feeding will keep them in the submissive parrot role for which they were created.

I think you miss the greater picture.

A: They didn't fade away, they got co-opted by neocons.
B: Despite you trying to come off as all knowing politically what they stood on was traditional conservatism.
  Not only is it possible, it will come to pass through a desire to get back there and the fact that we have no
more money to continue the neocon agenda. The fire that drove the Tea Party is still alive and has grown.
  The only selective feeding that's going to happen is that of dead neocon bodies after the slaughter.

Many are still in it.. The tea party is split at around 50% Libertarian leaning and equally neocon.

The idea that we can't get to the positions we desire, (Tea Party/Libertarian/Constitutional Parties) is about the same hogwash wannabe right mentality that MSM pushes on us everyday. Yet we all keep making strides. People are waking up to the ideas of Liberty around the world with a strong reawakening here at home.  Thanks to the MSM,  neocons and democrats, with the way they're acting during this election cycle and the way they've acted with arrogant and destructive monetary/civil liberty policy over the last decade, we have a swell building.

You had better get your rain gear on and head to the nearest pontoon. You're just now beginning to see the very tip of the deluge headed Americas way. All of this economic strife has broken the damn which is pretty prominent throughout history as the catalyst for such a change.

< Message edited by Icarys -- 1/24/2012 1:19:17 AM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Conservative != Clueless - 1/24/2012 5:43:47 AM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		People here love their drama.


(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Conservative != Clueless - 1/24/2012 5:58:38 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
No, Tea = Naive.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://www.google.com
na·ive or na·ïve  (n-v, nä-) also na·if or na·ïf (n-f, nä-)adj.

1. Lacking worldly experience and understanding, especially:
a. Simple and guileless; artless: a child with a naive charm.
b. Unsuspecting or credulous: "Students, often bright but naive, betand losesubstantial sums of money on sporting events" (Tim Layden).

2. Showing or characterized by a lack of sophistication and critical judgment: "this extravagance of metaphors, with its naive bombast" (H.L. Mencken).

3. a. Not previously subjected to experiments: testing naive mice.
b. Not having previously taken or received a particular drug: persons naive to marijuana.


There are several definitions of naive where I'd completely agree, I can even agree to some definitions that use "lacking worldly experience". I mean they do seem to be a bunch that's reality challenged.

However, I don't think they are a bunch that "lacks political experience". The Tea Party is overwhelmingly long term Republicans who desire to push a Christian social agenda as I've irrefutably proven here with my carefully documented citations: http://www.google.com/

The Tea Party is just the re-branding of the conservative element of the Republican party and as they have so incoherently demonstrated they are clueless.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 1/24/2012 5:59:11 AM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Conservative != Clueless - 1/24/2012 6:15:38 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

People here love their drama.



I find that funny.

Tea=naive

When all is said and done, you will be wrong, that it is just drama. Anyone with an ounce of sight could see the potential looming issues on the way. As a matter of fact, those who were right about the mess we have are the very ones who are predicting more. Who should we stand with?


Someone who remarks to dismiss them or someone who's been right all along? If anyone is naive, it isn't those you'd wish to lump as a bunch into one party but perhaps yourself and the many more who scoff as usual.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Conservative != Clueless - 1/24/2012 6:23:44 AM   
SilverBoat


Posts: 257
Joined: 7/26/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
A: They didn't fade away, they got co-opted by neocons.
The only selective feeding that's going to happen is that of dead neocon bodies after the slaughter.
Many are still in it.. The tea party is split at around 50% Libertarian leaning and equally neocon.


No, the 'Tea-Party' was ginned-up by PNAC's stooges, because the national debts, foreign wars, domestic economy, invasive 'security', and {gasp} black president had split off so many idiots who'd been GOP 'base' voters. Their plan was always to corral the extremists, and route them back into the GOP to push the rightwing further right.

They managed to buffalo a sizeable chunk of political idiots in 2010, and proved they couldn't govern as the party of No. All they could do was obstruct. What do the pollsters find for approval rates of congress?

...


(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Conservative != Clueless - 1/24/2012 6:26:02 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

The Tea Party is overwhelmingly long term Republicans who desire to push a Christian social agenda as I've irrefutably proven here with my carefully documented citations

I'm curious where you might find or have come to that conclusion because to my study recently into them, it shows, they are about 50/50 neocon to libertarian leaning.

I wouldn't say that's overwhelmingly anything. You're right though, when you say they've been around for a bit, they are as you say.

Only 50% are clueless, the rest are astutely tuned in, I've met many of them recently who have a pretty good grasp on what's happening, both to their group and to the rest of the nation.

Now I'm sure some of them as I've even seen are probably not so sharp..all they are is angry with little less than a good grasp as to why other than they hate government and so on and so on.

I suppose that's inherent though with most people to collectively lump then brand people one way or another as the same.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Conservative != Clueless - 1/24/2012 6:27:59 AM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverBoat

quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys
A: They didn't fade away, they got co-opted by neocons.
The only selective feeding that's going to happen is that of dead neocon bodies after the slaughter.
Many are still in it.. The tea party is split at around 50% Libertarian leaning and equally neocon.


No, the 'Tea-Party' was ginned-up by PNAC's stooges, because the national debts, foreign wars, domestic economy, invasive 'security', and {gasp} black president had split off so many idiots who'd been GOP 'base' voters. Their plan was always to corral the extremists, and route them back into the GOP to push the rightwing further right.

They managed to buffalo a sizeable chunk of political idiots in 2010, and proved they couldn't govern as the party of No. All they could do was obstruct. What do the pollsters find for approval rates of congress?

...



Wrong and I'd say that's probably coming from a political bias because it sure it's fact.
http://reason.com/poll/2011/09/26/is-half-the-tea-part-libertart

They were in fact overrun by social conservatives, nobody got corralled by super conspiratorial means. They "left" the status quo republican "I must vote party lines" to speak out against it on many issues.. now as anyone could tell without looking at a chart and had at least the slightest bit of recall that they aren't quite voting the way they used to.. Why is that? Because they gradually became out maneuvered by social conservatives who sought to diminish their ability to change things toward their political leanings.

< Message edited by Icarys -- 1/24/2012 6:39:37 AM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to SilverBoat)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Conservative != Clueless - 1/24/2012 7:09:07 AM   
SilverBoat


Posts: 257
Joined: 7/26/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Original: Icarys
Wrong and I'd say that's probably coming from a political bias because it sure it's fact.


Accusations of personal political bias perhaps say more about 'projection' than anything else, but when their grammar is that disjunct, who can tell?  

The funding for the teaparty came from secretive rightwing donors (Kochs, etc).  
The organization of the teaparty was run by rightwing thinktanks (Heritage, etc).
The political agenda of the teaparty is the usual rightwing dogma (cut taxes, cut services, all hail feudal-corporate anarchy as the holy-grail of socio-economic darwinism, etc).

What the teaparty acolytes and dupes have in common is angry blame-laying on other people, worldviews that border or worse on delusional, and conviction that they're superior by virtue of all that. The teaparty moneychangers and high-priests played on the fears and frustrations of those idiot mobs, and managed to push a few rightwing extremists into office.

... shrug ...
 
Where will the 'Tea-Party' be in another five or ten election cycles? ... Where are Perot, Nader, etc now? ... Election patterns for the last forty-something years indicate that 90+% of the US electorate never votes for the 'libertarian' lunacies ...

...

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Conservative != Clueless - 1/24/2012 7:25:36 AM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline 		In response to the OP - I don't think the labels conservative, liberal, Democrat, Republican mean much these days.

To understand what's someone's politics really are, you have to understand what policies they support. The short handed one-label system just doesn't really cut it. Just like in BDSM, my saying I'm submissive doesn't really give the full picture of who I am. And there are many things that people assume from the word (because of historic connotations, or simply because they want the word "submissive" to mean a particular something). And guess what, I have my own brand of "submission", defined, and refined by me based on my BDSM experiences, and no one can tell me otherwise. In the same way, while I might be a "liberal" in short-hand, to truly understand what that means to me would require actually talking to me about my political beliefs. The word serves as a short-hand in the most general of ways. The devil is always in the details.

Part of the issue is that the political process is dominated by two very large parties, each of whom must necessarily house a wide spectrum of ideology under one banner. Quite difficult. So one really has to look past the labels, to individuals and what they speak to. And if one of the large parties does not have what you're looking for, find an independent who does.

I've never been big on labels. And as the economy and social issues have become more complex, and our society more pluralistic, the simplicity of the old labels simply does not work. So call them whatever you want out of historic artifact - Elephants and Donkeys - and then move past that to understand the underlying policies of individual candidates. The world is no longer a cut and dry place (perhaps it never was, but it certainly is not now).



< Message edited by fucktoyprincess -- 1/24/2012 7:27:41 AM >

_____________________________

~ ftp

(in reply to SilverBoat)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Conservative != Clueless - 1/24/2012 8:07:55 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		I don't think you are right. The labels as they are do indicate what the person behind the label believes. All of those on the Republican stage believe basically the same things. There isn't a hairs difference between any of them. Similar with the last Election and the Democrats. Some nuances in positions but basically all held the same ideals. I think people lose their way in that they don't get behind a set of Principles and let themselves be swayed the the cult of the personality. It is a common thing that runs through all of our society today. If we don't find a way to break out of that cycle we will be left with people like gingrich running for president.

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Conservative != Clueless - 1/24/2012 8:19:10 AM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline 		Sorry, but I disagree. I know many Democrats who are fiscal conservatives. I know Republicans who are socially liberal. I know people who self-describe as conservative or who believe in family values, but when you peel back the layers they are just traditional around the idea of family, but deeply respectful of other people's freedom to define things differently. I also know people who self-describe as "anti-government", but support Republican policies that support government restricting people's rights. I don't think what party one supports or the terms "liberal" or "conservative" actually describe where one is situated politically. Politics is not longer a two-sided spectrum. It is multi-dimensional and requires us to get away from labels as being meaningful in and of themselves.

_____________________________

~ ftp

(in reply to DomYngBlk)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Conservative != Clueless - 1/24/2012 8:20:26 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Sorry, but I disagree. I know many Democrats who are fiscal conservatives. I know Republicans who are socially liberal. I know people who self-describe as conservative or who believe in family values, but when you peel back the layers they are just traditional around the idea of family, but deeply respectful of other people's freedom to define things differently. I also know people who self-describe as "anti-government", but support Republican policies that support government restricting people's rights. I don't think what party one supports or the terms "liberal" or "conservative" actually describe where one is situated politically. Politics is not longer a two-sided spectrum. It is multi-dimensional and requires us to get away from labels as being meaningful in and of themselves.



This.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Conservative != Clueless - 1/24/2012 9:13:48 AM   
DomYngBlk


Posts: 3316
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Sorry, but I disagree. I know many Democrats who are fiscal conservatives. I know Republicans who are socially liberal. I know people who self-describe as conservative or who believe in family values, but when you peel back the layers they are just traditional around the idea of family, but deeply respectful of other people's freedom to define things differently. I also know people who self-describe as "anti-government", but support Republican policies that support government restricting people's rights. I don't think what party one supports or the terms "liberal" or "conservative" actually describe where one is situated politically. Politics is not longer a two-sided spectrum. It is multi-dimensional and requires us to get away from labels as being meaningful in and of themselves.


Fairly simple excercise. Give me 10 sitting members of Congress from the Republican side that are socially liberal. You falsely assume a meme that has Democrats not being fiscally responsible when the facts say they are. Again, give me 10 Republican sitting members who believe in others individual rights........

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Conservative != Clueless - 1/24/2012 10:15:17 AM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Sorry, but I disagree. I know many Democrats who are fiscal conservatives. I know Republicans who are socially liberal. I know people who self-describe as conservative or who believe in family values, but when you peel back the layers they are just traditional around the idea of family, but deeply respectful of other people's freedom to define things differently. I also know people who self-describe as "anti-government", but support Republican policies that support government restricting people's rights. I don't think what party one supports or the terms "liberal" or "conservative" actually describe where one is situated politically. Politics is not longer a two-sided spectrum. It is multi-dimensional and requires us to get away from labels as being meaningful in and of themselves.


Damn.  A smart one.  Someone snap her up, quick!

Welcome to the basement, princess.

Firm


_____________________________

Some people are just idiots.

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Conservative != Clueless - 1/24/2012 1:01:21 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk
Fairly simple excercise. Give me 10 sitting members of Congress from the Republican side that are socially liberal. You falsely assume a meme that has Democrats not being fiscally responsible when the facts say they are. Again, give me 10 Republican sitting members who believe in others individual rights........


I guess you've never heard of Libertarian Republicans before. By my count there are at least 9 in Congress currently, but I am sure there are more who I am unaware of.

And where did I say Democrats were not fiscally responsible?? These are MY words "I know many Democrats who are fiscal conservatives." I'm not sure whose point you are arguing because it's not mine.

Also, Mitt Romney, while not a Congressman, used to support abortion rights. It is only recently, because he is seeking the Republican nomination, that he has felt the need to back-peddle on that social issue.

_____________________________

~ ftp

(in reply to DomYngBlk)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Conservative != Clueless - 1/24/2012 1:14:41 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

People here love their drama.



I find that funny.

Tea=naive

When all is said and done, you will be wrong, that it is just drama. Anyone with an ounce of sight could see the potential looming issues on the way. As a matter of fact, those who were right about the mess we have are the very ones who are predicting more. Who should we stand with?


Someone who remarks to dismiss them or someone who's been right all along? If anyone is naive, it isn't those you'd wish to lump as a bunch into one party but perhaps yourself and the many more who scoff as usual.


That's WHY people love their drama.

"You'll see when the ___________ happens!"

It's a conversation stopper, not an argument.


(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Conservative != Clueless - 1/24/2012 1:44:42 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

Sorry, but I disagree. I know many Democrats who are fiscal conservatives. I know Republicans who are socially liberal. I know people who self-describe as conservative or who believe in family values, but when you peel back the layers they are just traditional around the idea of family, but deeply respectful of other people's freedom to define things differently. I also know people who self-describe as "anti-government", but support Republican policies that support government restricting people's rights. I don't think what party one supports or the terms "liberal" or "conservative" actually describe where one is situated politically. Politics is not longer a two-sided spectrum. It is multi-dimensional and requires us to get away from labels as being meaningful in and of themselves.


Its a two-sided spectrum as far as some posters around here goes. Its nice to see someone else pointing out that there are some of us who are so moderate that, at times, the lines blur.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Conservative != Clueless - 1/24/2012 3:37:29 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

It's a conversation stopper, not an argument.

Were you looking for conversation when you called the Tea party naive collectively?

Stop already.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Conservative != Clueless - 1/24/2012 3:49:50 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

Accusations of personal political bias perhaps say more about 'projection' than anything else, but when their grammar is that disjunct, who can tell?

Did you mean disjunctive? Yes, you got me there and quite clever it was too.

quote:

The funding for the teaparty came from secretive rightwing donors (Kochs, etc).
The organization of the teaparty was run by rightwing thinktanks (Heritage, etc).


There are timelines involved with my first statements on co-opted which you seem to be leaving out. neither of those groups started the Tea party, they came a little later in an attempt to take it over and use it, which to a great deal they did. Now so much so that when people hear the term "Tea Party" they predominately head straight to the neocon associations.

Yet, once again, they aren't all the same. Now you can say you don't have a particular political bias but I see the way you use the words you do, it's not hard from there to pick out the intent behind the words to some degree. Anyway it's unimportant in the scheme of things.

(Flippant show of disinterest coming next) ... shrug...

dupes, acolytes, all hail feudal-corporate anarchy... Nope no bias there lol... so goes the average mentality of those who are willfully ignorant and choose to stay so.

Enjoy.

< Message edited by Icarys -- 1/24/2012 4:25:10 PM >

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to SilverBoat)
Profile   Post #: 60
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Conservative != Clueless Page: <<   < prev  1 2 [3] 4 5   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094