RE: ProDoms are fake?

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thishereboi -> RE: ProDoms are fake? (2/1/2012 4:12:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr Awareness, why exactly do you feel that proDommes don't provide something of value to their costumers? What exactly makes you think they do? Well I can't speak for Ishtarr, but I know they do because I have met and talked to several pros in the past. Met and talked to a few clients and actually sat in on one session and saw it happen. So how many pros do you know in real life? Let's face it. This is not an arena which requires any demonstration of qualification, training, experience or intention to provide value. So even without considering the subjective nature of what constitutes value, fact is, there's no independent verification of whether a Pro is providing any value whatsoever beyond the testimony of compromised individuals trying to feed a need which is probably founded in dysfunction. The same can be said for many businesses. I am pretty sure the last bitch that cut my hair had no qualification to do so, but she still got hired. Maybe I should show them your posts and get my money back. Indeed, the probability the Pro is feeding that dysfunction with the ultimate goal of stringing along the client as long as humanly possible is incredibly high. So are the casinos and the bars. Are you going to insist they be closed down? After all, they are in it for the money. I don't know how to tell you this, but the majority of business are in it for the money. However, what I see is an incredible piece of hypocrisy on the part of Pros and their supporters. Take a look at any male/female D/s relationship and you will see a social more within this community which expresses the idea that a dominant is responsible for his sub. Submissive women are constantly advised to get out of exploitative relationships because no Dominant worth his salt desires to exploit his submissive. And yet here we have Pros admitting to exploiting male submissives and justifying it on the basis that those submissives are weak and stupid and thus deserve it. No they are justifying it on the basis that there are men out there who want this. I presume next time an idiot sub comes on here and tells a tale of her Dom exploiting the living fuck out of her, that those Pros and their sycophants will just shut the fuck up or tell her she's stupid and therefore deserves to be exploited. Because, after all, that's the very law of the jungle they use to justify their exploitation of those men who are weak and stupid enough to hire them. Whatever Basically, I'm not a fan of hypocrisy, but I see an awful lot of it. It's one of the reasons I tend to ignore a lot of what women say, particularly here. Nine times out of ten, if you bother, you can tear apart their self-deluding nonsense with ease. You love the attention and you know it.

thishereboi -> RE: ProDoms are fake? (2/1/2012 4:15:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Awareness Look it's very simple. The OP started a thread saying "just about the money". Now we've MIP saying she doesn't give a shit, that she's entitled to exploit stupid men and that she'll trample over whomever she has to get that money. I'd say the OP's original thesis is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. She's proven it for him. If that is what she meant, do you really think she speaks for all pro's? Maybe you should trot over the the politics board. With that kind of logic, you will fit right in.

PeonForHer -> RE: ProDoms are fake? (2/1/2012 4:19:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve quote: However, what I see is an incredible piece of hypocrisy on the part of Pros and their supporters. Take a look at any male/female D/s relationship and you will see a social more within this community which expresses the idea that a dominant is responsible for his sub. Submissive women are constantly advised to get out of exploitative relationships because no Dominant worth his salt desires to exploit his submissive. And yet here we have Pros admitting to exploiting male submissives and justifying it on the basis that those submissives are weak and stupid and thus deserve it. This is not entirely untrue, but women have been being exploited for Millena, they're still playing catch up. It's better than it was in the Eighties, on both sides I think, but one thing I know for sure is people always gonna find something to bitch about. Indeed it wasn't entirely untrue. The nub of it for me is that it's ugly and low for one sex to abuse its advantage over the other sex.

MissImmortalPain -> RE: ProDoms are fake? (2/1/2012 6:28:57 AM)
I would like to address something that was said about that other thread. I did not post on it. I did not post because my honest opinion as to the "submissive" in question would be jerked by a mod. I will go so far as to say that I do not see her as a victim. I do not see her "dom" as a villian. And I would not have suggested she leave her realationship. As for your saying I would trample over whoever to get money...if that were true I would be a wealthy woman now, which I assure you I am now.

xxblushesxx -> RE: ProDoms are fake? (2/1/2012 6:43:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain I would like to address something that was said about that other thread. I did not post on it. I did not post because my honest opinion as to the "submissive" in question would be jerked by a mod. I will go so far as to say that I do not see her as a victim. I do not see her "dom" as a villian. And I would not have suggested she leave her realationship. As for your saying I would trample over whoever to get money...if that were true I would be a wealthy woman now, which I assure you I am now. MIP, I love you, but some things just must be immortalized. Sadly for you, this is one. runs

xssve -> RE: ProDoms are fake? (2/1/2012 6:52:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PeonForHer quote: ORIGINAL: xssve quote: However, what I see is an incredible piece of hypocrisy on the part of Pros and their supporters. Take a look at any male/female D/s relationship and you will see a social more within this community which expresses the idea that a dominant is responsible for his sub. Submissive women are constantly advised to get out of exploitative relationships because no Dominant worth his salt desires to exploit his submissive. And yet here we have Pros admitting to exploiting male submissives and justifying it on the basis that those submissives are weak and stupid and thus deserve it. This is not entirely untrue, but women have been being exploited for Millena, they're still playing catch up. It's better than it was in the Eighties, on both sides I think, but one thing I know for sure is people always gonna find something to bitch about. Indeed it wasn't entirely untrue. The nub of it for me is that it's ugly and low for one sex to abuse its advantage over the other sex. Also true, but once you set a precedent, it's precedent.

xssve -> RE: ProDoms are fake? (2/1/2012 7:11:08 AM)
I mean I think you could classify it as predatory behavior if you wanted to, but I see no threat to pubic health and overall, it comes in pretty low on the list shit I would be worrying about - I'd be a lot more worried about Melanin in baby formula and shit like that. Anytime you've got a free market, you have scams, deception and predation, when assigning threat-value, public health and safety usually comes in first, false advertising, etc., on down the list in order of actual damages inflicted - it's not like they're calling me up in the middle of the night to abuse me. I just don't see any damages being inflicted here: a woman says, "call me, I'll abuse you, you little fucking worm, and you're gonna pay me to do it" - that's not even false advertising, it's not even like saying "send me your social security check and I'll put in a good word with god for you". She's not promising eternal life, she's promising to kick you in the nads - you got nobody else to blame but yourself. You're getting what you're paying for, and if you end up eating dog food because of it, it's probably because you want to, not because you have to. [sm=boohoo.gif] Now, if somebody comes up and tries to subject me to non-con abuse, I tell 'em, "if I wanted that I'd pay you for it - I don't, so hit the damn bricks". I see that as a much larger social problem, some people act like god appointed them to abuse you and waste your time. So if a Prodomme wants me to hassle her, she's gonna have to pay me to do it. [:D]

xXLithiumXx -> RE: ProDoms are fake? (2/1/2012 7:13:47 AM)
I think I am going to throw my hat in the ring on this one and then run like hell. First, yes, there are absolutely women who exploit men. Yes, some of them come in the guise of a ProDomme. And the guys buy it because the woman comes across like a stone cold bitch, and that satisfies part of it for them because the men do not take the time to study and learn. Now, that said, there are also women who do this-and I have done it, so I do know that ProDomme's are real- because it suits a variety of needs across the board. For me, working as a Pro meant that I didn't have to be tied to anyone. I didn't want to have to be in a relationship of any kind. I wanted to be able to flit from flower to flower and get what I needed. Which I did. Being a Pro for me offered a few things since I am somewhat of a different blend, I guess; I am not masochistic, but I am submissive, I am not Dominant, but I am Sadistic. So..being a pro allowed for the room of the client being able to "top from the bottom" and I was able to give them what they wanted, which satisfied my submissive bent, but most of the time what they wanted included pain, so I was able to be sadistic and get that need met as well. For the clients, it was about what need they had. Most of my boys were married, higher end guys that didnt have the time to put into a mistress, didn't want the sex with a hooker, and just wanted someone to understand that they were kinky and that kink didn't always involve sex. We had clear understandings of the rules and the fact that the boys were not to touch me, there would be no sex, no one stayed the night, no one came over before scheduled time, none of that emotional business. It was just that-business. Of course I took the time to get to know them. I listened, I even sent birthday cards when appropriate. I had a good bond with all of my boys. We got along well both inside and outside the dungeon. Is it always that way? I am sure it is not. But I made it that way because that is the way that I wanted it to be. So, the long and short of it is, there are always exceptions to the rule. Always. Now, I am going to run. Deuces!

Zonie63 -> RE: ProDoms are fake? (2/1/2012 7:17:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve I didn't want to put prodommes into the same category as as drug dealers, since that's the example, which is why I mentioned informed consent which is not generally the case when you're talking about patently predatory behavior - it's a little more akin to gambling, or even televangelists - but probably less addictive - I've never heard of a guy mortgaging his house or losing his job over phone sex. I also used an oil company analogy as well, since oil is a commodity that people need, thus giving oil companies license to gouge people. But perhaps televangelists might be a more apt analogy. I agreed primarily with your view of caveat emptor, but then again, if someone suggested that televangelists are fake, I would have no other choice but to agree. Also, it does trouble me that there are people who seem to think it's okay to take advantage of the weak-minded and gullible. I'm generally pretty libertarian on most issues, even when it comes to drug dealers, but likewise, people have the right to call it out and say what it is. There are elderly people who get fleeced out of their savings by con artists. There are children who get exploited all over the world, very often by the sex industry. There's a mentality of "I'm doing this just because I can," which is amoral and shameful. When it involves exploiting vulnerable people, then the same mentality becomes an abomination. I don't see how that should be so difficult to see.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: ProDoms are fake? (2/1/2012 7:19:16 AM)
I had good relationships with my clients too, Lithium. Why would they come back to me if they were not happy with my services? Yes, I did it for money, I had overhead to pay. That doesn't mean that I was out to exploit or cheat. It was great while I did it. I'm not sure that I have the patience for it anymore, tempting as becoming a findom is...it's a lot of work to get into someone's mind and make them "want what they want", if you will. I used to love that sort of thing, too!

MissImmortalPain -> RE: ProDoms are fake? (2/1/2012 7:36:16 AM)
Oh, for the love, I meant.. NOT. This is why I shouldn't post right after waking up. It's to late to edit now. Oh, well, I am wealthy where it matters. Just not in the way some people would think. quote: ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx quote: ORIGINAL: MissImmortalPain I would like to address something that was said about that other thread. I did not post on it. I did not post because my honest opinion as to the "submissive" in question would be jerked by a mod. I will go so far as to say that I do not see her as a victim. I do not see her "dom" as a villian. And I would not have suggested she leave her realationship. As for your saying I would trample over whoever to get money...if that were true I would be a wealthy woman now, which I assure you I am now. MIP, I love you, but some things just must be immortalized. Sadly for you, this is one. runs edit to fix a typo that wasn't a typo....Stop making me spell, damnit.

xssve -> RE: ProDoms are fake? (2/1/2012 7:37:54 AM)
And at that point, how is it any different than Dom/Sub?You've got women being told their entire life what to do, and getting their ass whipped, they grow up and become capable of making their own decisions, but they're not comfortable unless somebody's telling them what to do, and whipping their ass, so they decide to find somebody to do that for them so they're not sitting around agitated all the time. You can call that predatory too, money is not the only criteria, time is money - you can also call it life in the big city, the human condition, etc., etc. It grounds some people, it's no different for men, other than when women do it to men, the sexual component is often downplayed, prodommes are just filling a need by including an explicit sexual component, even if sex isn't directly involved. Only conflict I can see (at Awareness), is if you're laboring under the delusion that men are supposed to be strong, women are supposed to be weak, it's some kind of natural law - natural selection doesn't work that way, whatever works, works, that's all, and while we tend to specialize in slightly different areas overall according to gender, there's plenty of overlap. Diversity is natures way of hedging her bets, and it's there because... it works!

xssve -> RE: ProDoms are fake? (2/1/2012 7:45:55 AM)
And I don't want to change the subject to BDSM=abuse, people do all kinds of crazy shit just to feel alive, jump out of airplanes, climb mountains, swim across oceans, etc., etc., it not always because of some kind of abuse, it's just a need for some kind of stimulus, and this works for some people.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: ProDoms are fake? (2/1/2012 7:46:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve And at that point, how is it any different than Dom/Sub?You've got women being told their entire life what to do, and getting their ass whipped, they grow up and become capable of making their own decisions, but they're not comfortable unless somebody's telling them what to do, and whipping their ass, so they decide to find somebody to do that for them so they're not sitting around agitated all the time. You can call that predatory too, money is not the only criteria, time is money - you can also call it life in the big city, the human condition, etc., etc. It grounds some people, it's no different for men, other than when women do it to men, the sexual component is often downplayed, prodommes are just filling a need by including an explicit sexual component, even if sex isn't directly involved. Only conflict I can see, is if you're laboring under the delusion that men are supposed to be strong, women are supposed to be weak, it's some kind of natural law - natural selection doesn't work that way, whatever works, works, that's all, and while we tend to specialize in slightly different areas overall according to gender, there's plenty of overlap. Diversity is natures way of hedging her bets, and it's there because... it works! Not sure exactly what you're responding to... though I am agreeing with you. Men are good at compartmentalizing their sexuality, far more than most women. (I am one of those women, fwiw). How often do we castigate men for wanting us to be fetish delivery systems, or for thinking that "dominance" is anal sex or some such nonsense? We want what we want, and sometimes, we have to pay for it. I used to say that there are predators and prey, and I know which one I am. (still true, I just don't say it much) As a female dominant, I can tell you that the prey generally comes to me, offering its neck. More often than not, I turn it away, because I am very particular. I know what I want, too. Not every predator is that discerning, and isn't an easy meal a fine thing? I am not an exploiter of other humans. I can't bring myself to do it. I turned pro clients away or recommended them to someone else if I couldn't meet their fantasy. I don't ask for "tribute" in order to meet someone for coffee. My amazon wishlist is not public. Those men that send the gannets cash and prizes KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING, but I just can't go out there demanding something for nothing, or even offering the promise of something and not delivering.

xssve -> RE: ProDoms are fake? (2/1/2012 8:08:30 AM)
Well that's just it - nobody is compelling anybody to do this, most of the compulsion is going in entirely the other direction - Awareness's philosophy of gender roles is a form of linguistic compulsion, he's mad because something is going contrary to his philosophy, it's an anomaly he can't account for, and he thinks it's going to be easier to alter reality than alter his philosophy - the "threat" here is to his game, he's nervous you're gonna mess it up, is all I can figure. When it comes down to it, in terms of pure sensation, I'd probably rather try being dommed than climb another mountain - I've climbed mountains, my brother is a climber and he used to drag me up all kinds of Rocks, I've done a number of 14r's, and it's all very thrilling, but when I get to the top I'm usually thinking: "what a great place to fuck"! I think I'd do better with Deep Sea diving, but I happened to be born where it's all beach and no ocean. [&o]

xXLithiumXx -> RE: ProDoms are fake? (2/1/2012 8:39:38 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus I had good relationships with my clients too, Lithium. Why would they come back to me if they were not happy with my services? Yes, I did it for money, I had overhead to pay. That doesn't mean that I was out to exploit or cheat. It was great while I did it. I'm not sure that I have the patience for it anymore, tempting as becoming a findom is...it's a lot of work to get into someone's mind and make them "want what they want", if you will. I used to love that sort of thing, too! Are you kidding? I had a blast when I was working! I got to do things that I wouldn't get to do normally. I had one client that only wanted to take me places and talk to me. He never wanted any kind of interaction, he never wanted a session, he never made an advance, nothing! Of course I didn't make him pay to take me out, he just bought the meal. But he always came bearing gifts, even if it was nothing more than flowers or a card. It is tempting, but where I live, I just do not see the clientel that I use to have. I wish I did. It's a much smaller area here, and interest is not as wide spread. But I do miss it. Not just the money, but the fact that I got to play! I miss playing so bad. It just doesnt happen for me anymore. I know I would do it again if I could, because it is something I love so much. The psychological aspect that you are talking about is the best part to me. I had one boy that would call me in the morning, before his session, and I could hear it in his voice; he was shaking, he couldn't focus, he could barely talk...That, for me, was the biggest rush ever. -le sigh- I do miss it.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: ProDoms are fake? (2/1/2012 8:41:19 AM)
I have Awareness on hide for reasons like that. Serious mental bigotry. Did you know that the more times you climb high mountains the more brain damage you do? True Story. Brains need oxygen, evidently.

PeonForHer -> RE: ProDoms are fake? (2/1/2012 8:43:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve You're getting what you're paying for, and if you end up eating dog food because of it, it's probably because you want to, not because you have to. Probably, but not always. I have a feeling that Lady Hib is right when she says that men tend to be able to compartmentalise their feelings. Further, I think that this may apply even more in the case of male subs. One part of me is submissive towards women, another part isn't. There's an equilibrium between those parts. It works. I have a feeling that most clients of pro-dommes go to get an itch scratched; it duly gets scratched, money passes between hands, and both go away satisfied. But I also get the sense that there those for whom the feeling is much more than an itch and that such people have no equilibrium.

LadyHibiscus -> RE: ProDoms are fake? (2/1/2012 8:44:33 AM)
Excellent observation, Darling. Obsession does not allow for equilibrium.

xXLithiumXx -> RE: ProDoms are fake? (2/1/2012 8:45:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus I have Awareness on hide for reasons like that. Serious mental bigotry. Did you know that the more times you climb high mountains the more brain damage you do? True Story. Brains need oxygen, evidently. =O you can hide people? Why didn't anyone tell me that? I wish I had known, that would have saved the ruckus over on that other thread with the other guy I was arguing with. Which, by the way, if his little minions email me, isn't that some form of harassment?

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