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RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 7:14:32 AM   
VideoAdminGamma


Posts: 2233
Status: offline 		I wanted to commend all the posters so far. This can be a very emotional and passionate topic. So far I have seen it handled very well (with the exception of one small possible hijack).

Thanks to ALL of you for contributing to the forums,
VideoAdminGamma

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Profile   Post #: 161
RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 7:28:22 AM   
jennah


Posts: 6
Joined: 5/13/2007
Status: offline 		I have to agree with a couple of people who have spoke in this thread. Murder is murder, whether it is in or out of the womb. Most abortions are done after the point where there is a heart beat. At the end of a life, post-birth, a person is declared dead when their heart beat stops. So with that, it would be safe to say before their heart stopped, and it was beating, the person was alive. A baby in the womb who has a beating heart is alive, growing, and ingesting nutrients. It is a child, not a matter of how much money is being spent, not a matter of convience, and not a matter of an accident. If the baby in the womb is tested and it comes out that it MAY have special needs when it is born, then so be it. The child has needs, everyone has needs. If you dont want to open your heart to this innocent loving child because the needs are outside of your comfort bubble, there are many people who would be willing to adopt the child and give it the life it deserves.

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Profile   Post #: 162
RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 7:43:40 AM   
Trismagistus


Posts: 137
Joined: 10/16/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jennah

I have to agree with a couple of people who have spoke in this thread. Murder is murder, whether it is in or out of the womb. Most abortions are done after the point where there is a heart beat. At the end of a life, post-birth, a person is declared dead when their heart beat stops. So with that, it would be safe to say before their heart stopped, and it was beating, the person was alive. A baby in the womb who has a beating heart is alive, growing, and ingesting nutrients. It is a child, not a matter of how much money is being spent, not a matter of convience, and not a matter of an accident. If the baby in the womb is tested and it comes out that it MAY have special needs when it is born, then so be it. The child has needs, everyone has needs. If you dont want to open your heart to this innocent loving child because the needs are outside of your comfort bubble, there are many people who would be willing to adopt the child and give it the life it deserves.


Look, let me stop you right there. Do YOU, want to go on living, have room to live, be able to put food on the table, and basically continue with your quality of life? Imagine, now, if every pregnancy terminated in the past 20 years hadn't been, how many people we'd have RIGHT NOW in an already over crowded job market that promises literally no notable chance of growth. Hell scientists are predicting that in the next few generations we're going to be experiencing major supply shortages as it is, now take the estimated20% of pregnancies that get aborted and slap them back on the population, since Roe v. Wade there have been over 50 million abortions. the current us population by census estimates is 312,950,234 which means that 50 million new people would be a 10% increase, and that doesn't seem like alot of people, but that's 50 million people not making new lives we can't feed, who in turn won't be making any more either, it's a simple matter of seeing just how fucked up the world will be if we don't do something MORE aggressive than the current system of doing things. Pro-Lifers are just ill informed anyway, why the hell should you force someone to take care of a kid they don't goddamn want anyway, that just leads to less mentally healthy people on both the adult and child spectrum OR a shit ton of overflowing orphanages ala China, Pro-life is honestly the last thing the world needs right now and I think if you actually take the time to read up on our species' environmental, and resourcing impact you'd see my point IF you didn't care about a standpoint based entirely off of misplaced sentimentality.

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RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 7:55:43 AM   
SpiritedRadiance


Posts: 1341
Joined: 3/3/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jennah

I have to agree with a couple of people who have spoke in this thread. Murder is murder, whether it is in or out of the womb. Most abortions are done after the point where there is a heart beat. At the end of a life, post-birth, a person is declared dead when their heart beat stops. So with that, it would be safe to say before their heart stopped, and it was beating, the person was alive. A baby in the womb who has a beating heart is alive, growing, and ingesting nutrients. It is a child, not a matter of how much money is being spent, not a matter of convience, and not a matter of an accident. If the baby in the womb is tested and it comes out that it MAY have special needs when it is born, then so be it. The child has needs, everyone has needs. If you dont want to open your heart to this innocent loving child because the needs are outside of your comfort bubble, there are many people who would be willing to adopt the child and give it the life it deserves.


However the child cannot live out side of the womb even if it has said heartbeat... Its feeding and living off of the mother..

If i get pregnant theres a 96% chance i will die before 4 months into the pregnancy, that child cannot live at 4 months old, and its living with out its mother...

You honestly think its right to bring a life into the world, when you will be dead and cannot care for it thats if it survives.

Until the parasite can live outside the womb i dont think its a human being or a life.... Honestly its cruel but i think abortions should be longer then the 3 month period...I think until the fetus can survive outside of the womb with out birth defects or under development abortion should be allowed...That means up to about 30 some odd weeks.....


Also special needs children cost on average 4 times the normal amount to raise one child... Sorry but i dont agree someone should have a special needs kid if they cant care for it...

Id rather a dead fetus where it cant feel pain, then a child who starves to death, slowly and painfully over the course of several months...And thats what will happen if abortions become illegal or harder to come by... People having children they cant afford, and those children facing one of the worst possible ways to die...



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Profile   Post #: 164
RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 7:57:47 AM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		No, there are not many people who would be willing to adopt a special needs child. That was the most incorrect statement in your post, although it was hard to pick just one.

When I was younger, I had an abortion. I shudder to think what my life would have been like if I hadn't. I certainly would have lost my job, my parents would not have been supportive, I doubt I would have been able to further my education and prospects. I doubt I would have been able to advance in life and provide my two wonderful sons, who came when I was prepared to be a mother, the life they have. I think my life would have been more like the pathetic women I see shuffling through the grocery store with their snotty nosed brood, living off food stamps. I don't take charity, no thanks.

You pro lifers act like bearing a child one is not prepared for is just a lull in a young woman's life. It is not, it has stigma and ultimate consequences.
quote:

ORIGINAL: jennah
If the baby in the womb is tested and it comes out that it MAY have special needs when it is born, then so be it. The child has needs, everyone has needs. If you dont want to open your heart to this innocent loving child because the needs are outside of your comfort bubble, there are many people who would be willing to adopt the child and give it the life it deserves.


_____________________________

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The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to jennah)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 8:01:39 AM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		Dream on eddy baby. Really, who would want to live in a world that is wall to wall people? It makes little sense to have uncontrolled population growth in the hopes that some technology will come along to save us.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
quote:

ORIGINAL: Trismagistus




OK, don't get all Malthusian here.

I'm not an expert on the population thing and neither are you, but ... 

Technology, implemented properly in the macroeconomic sense, -should- allow us to do more while using less.

Yes, I know we are not at that point yet, and who knows when we might get there, but there it is for the taking.

As soon as we find our way past the war and financial meltdown version of 'making happy' that some few insist on pursuing, we have something to look forward to.






_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

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Profile   Post #: 166
RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 8:01:39 AM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jennah

I have to agree with a couple of people who have spoke in this thread. Murder is murder, whether it is in or out of the womb. Most abortions are done after the point where there is a heart beat. At the end of a life, post-birth, a person is declared dead when their heart beat stops. So with that, it would be safe to say before their heart stopped, and it was beating, the person was alive. A baby in the womb who has a beating heart is alive, growing, and ingesting nutrients. It is a child, not a matter of how much money is being spent, not a matter of convience, and not a matter of an accident. If the baby in the womb is tested and it comes out that it MAY have special needs when it is born, then so be it. The child has needs, everyone has needs. If you dont want to open your heart to this innocent loving child because the needs are outside of your comfort bubble, there are many people who would be willing to adopt the child and give it the life it deserves.


How many have you adopted?


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Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

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Profile   Post #: 167
RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 8:59:28 AM   
truckinslave


Posts: 3897
Joined: 6/16/2004
Status: offline 		Time to call pro-abortion folks what they are: baby killers.

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Profile   Post #: 168
RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 9:41:07 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jennah

I have to agree with a couple of people who have spoke in this thread. Murder is murder, whether it is in or out of the womb. Most abortions are done after the point where there is a heart beat. At the end of a life, post-birth, a person is declared dead when their heart beat stops. So with that, it would be safe to say before their heart stopped, and it was beating, the person was alive. A baby in the womb who has a beating heart is alive, growing, and ingesting nutrients. It is a child, not a matter of how much money is being spent, not a matter of convience, and not a matter of an accident. If the baby in the womb is tested and it comes out that it MAY have special needs when it is born, then so be it. The child has needs, everyone has needs. If you dont want to open your heart to this innocent loving child because the needs are outside of your comfort bubble, there are many people who would be willing to adopt the child and give it the life it deserves.


As used in this section, the term “born alive”, with respect to a member of the species homo sapiens, means the complete expulsion or extraction from his or her mother of that member, at any stage of development, who after such expulsion or extraction breathes or has a beating heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, regardless of whether the umbilical cord has been cut, and regardless of whether the expulsion or extraction occurs as a result of natural or induced labor, cesarean section, or induced abortion.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/uscode01/usc_sec_01_00000008----000-.html

To have a death certificate, one must have a birth certificate. In order to have a birth certificate, the above must apply. Your sense of morality doesnt not change that fact.

Fact, the earliest live birth to survive is at 21.6 weeks gestation.

Fact, most abortions occur before 9 weeks.

In 2003, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported that 26% of abortions in the United States were known to have been obtained at less than 6 weeks' gestation, 18% at 7 weeks, 15% at 8 weeks, 4.1% at 16 through 20 weeks and 1.4% at more than 21 weeks.

Ane even with that the reorting practices of different states, and the lack of reporting from a few, make the numbers low.

Now, if you wish to argue against late term abortions, I think you will find most here would agree with you. Mother's life life being the major reason. Inevitable death of the fetus before birth being the second.

I could fill this post with facts from so many varies sources, but I fear I would simply be wasting my time.

I respect your morality, and your position, I just dont happen to agree with it.

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Profile   Post #: 169
RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 9:43:24 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Time to call pro-abortion folks what they are: baby killers.


The law disagrees with you.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 170
RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 10:09:53 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jennah
It is a child, not a matter of how much money is being spent, not a matter of convience, and not a matter of an accident.

No it's not, child is a term that doesn't apply until after birth. This for instance is not a child, I mean you can notice the difference right?





Attachment (1)

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Profile   Post #: 171
RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 10:12:09 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
Dream on eddy baby. Really, who would want to live in a world that is wall to wall people? It makes little sense to have uncontrolled population growth in the hopes that some technology will come along to save us.

It depends, in a certain sense that's already happened.

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Profile   Post #: 172
RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 10:48:28 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Time to call pro-abortion folks what they are: baby killers.


Except of course, it's not. That's just a crazy religious extremist view predicated on two beliefs. (1) That abortion isn't a medical procedure which is required in the context of providing a full range of woman's health services and (2) that a fetus is a person.

If they understood any science past the middle ages, they would understand their confusion. The real problem occurs when these crazy religious extremists get treated as if they weren't crazy.

But of course they are. Otherwise how could they be convinced that abortion services isn't something that's part of woman's health?

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RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 11:10:05 AM   
Trismagistus


Posts: 137
Joined: 10/16/2010
Status: offline 		here, I can spout retarded shit about my opposition too prolifers. Prolife is pro-starvation, pro-homelessness, pro-unemployment, pro-death of those who need an abortion to survive (which is, the way you spin it just another kind murder that you yourself are advocating, and pro misogyny because you're trying to tell women what they can and cannot do with their lives on a simple basis of god (a male and a huge gigantic asswipe) wanting them not to in many cases. Your entire arguement is like an intellectual blackhole that not even the light of reason can escape and all you have to say for yourself is that we're murdering babies? Well look in the fucking mirror, nothing will change for the better if your arguement comes to pass, the problems presented by the lack of availability of abortion were far greater than the deaths of unwanted fetuses.

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RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 11:16:45 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Do you honestly believe attacking their morality will change anyone's positions? Attacking their religious beliefs only serves to stir up a hornets nest. This type of dicussion is best when it remains science based concerning the fetal growth and development.

Attacking what cannot be proven either way only starts a flame war.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 175
RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 11:22:05 AM   
Trismagistus


Posts: 137
Joined: 10/16/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Do you honestly believe attacking their morality will change anyone's positions? Attacking their religious beliefs only serves to stir up a hornets nest. This type of dicussion is best when it remains science based concerning the fetal growth and development.

Attacking what cannot be proven either way only starts a flame war.


I do not believe that anything you can say will change their position, that is simply how these barbarians are, they cannot see the light of reason for the enormous stature of their egoic willful ignorance of science. You cannot reason with the insane any more than you can suspend a cat in the air by stapling buttered toast to it's back to see if it spins. Look at the title to this thread and see if it was not, in it's inception based on an insult in the first place then ask yourself if there is anything to be gained here other than to simply mock the ludicrous masses of the prolife movement, who accuse us of being murderers then set fire to abortion clinics, who call us evil then insist on making people miserable by insulting them and verbally and at times physically attacking them in public. I am here for exactly what the thread promised with it's title.

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RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 11:23:26 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

Murder is murder, whether it is in or out of the womb.


You are free to vote for legislators who want to change the legal definition of murder to align with yours and I will continue to vote for legislators who are pro-choice, among other things, as I am not a one issue voter.

(in reply to jennah)
Profile   Post #: 177
RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 11:29:34 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

I do not believe that anything you can say will change their position, that is simply how these barbarians are, they cannot see the light of reason for the enormous stature of their egoic willful ignorance of science. You cannot reason with the insane any more than you can suspend a cat in the air by stapling buttered toast to it's back to see if it spins. Look at the title to this thread and see if it was not, in it's inception based on an insult in the first place then ask yourself if there is anything to be gained here other than to simply mock the ludicrous masses of the prolife movement, who accuse us of being murderers then set fire to abortion clinics, who call us evil then insist on making people miserable by insulting them and verbally and at times physically attacking them in public. I am here for exactly what the thread promised with it's title.


Take a look at what I highlighted. In any discussion personal attacks means you have lost. How can you honestly expect to be taken seriously when you mock everything they believe?

quote:

insist on making people miserable by insulting them and verbally and at times physically attacking them in public.


Isnt that what you are doing now?

Take a page from your own argument and rise above it. Yes, a few nut jobs have done just what you accuse them of doing... but the whole movement, the right to life, has not done these things.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 178
RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 11:33:05 AM   
Trismagistus


Posts: 137
Joined: 10/16/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

I do not believe that anything you can say will change their position, that is simply how these barbarians are, they cannot see the light of reason for the enormous stature of their egoic willful ignorance of science. You cannot reason with the insane any more than you can suspend a cat in the air by stapling buttered toast to it's back to see if it spins. Look at the title to this thread and see if it was not, in it's inception based on an insult in the first place then ask yourself if there is anything to be gained here other than to simply mock the ludicrous masses of the prolife movement, who accuse us of being murderers then set fire to abortion clinics, who call us evil then insist on making people miserable by insulting them and verbally and at times physically attacking them in public. I am here for exactly what the thread promised with it's title.


Take a look at what I highlighted. In any discussion personal attacks means you have lost. How can you honestly expect to be taken seriously when you mock everything they believe?

quote:

insist on making people miserable by insulting them and verbally and at times physically attacking them in public.


Isnt that what you are doing now?

Take a page from your own argument and rise above it. Yes, a few nut jobs have done just what you accuse them of doing... but the whole movement, the right to life, has not done these things.


yes, but I also never said I was a good person, I am in fact, not good people, nor am I pro-choice, or pro-life. I am also not afraid to hate, to be petty, to be cruel, or any of the other things even I associate with being bad people, do you know why? Because being a good person, being peaceful, being non-violent, These are all very nice things, and nice things never change the world. Never in a way that matters anyway.

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Profile   Post #: 179
RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. ... - 2/2/2012 11:36:45 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

yes, but I also never said I was a good person, I am in fact, not good people, nor am I pro-choice, or pro-life. I am also not afraid to hate, to be petty, to be cruel, or any of the other things even I associate with being bad people, do you know why? Because being a good person, being peaceful, being non-violent, These are all very nice things, and nice things never change the world. Never in a way that matters anyway.


No one said you had to be nice. But there is no reason to be hateful. You want to land blast someone because they hold a different point of view than you do? You must go around being a very angry man most of the time.

When the gold colored mails hit, dont be surprised.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Trismagistus)
Profile   Post #: 180
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