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RE: AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI: KILL ALL JEWS, ANNIHILATE ISRAEL - 2/18/2012 6:09:50 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

quote:
ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

You would not be repeatedly citing this precious interview, which you mentioned in the other thread in positive terms, if you did not believe it.
I cite it because it disagrees with your position.
That is incorrect. You cited it because it fundamentally agreed with your position,

Since I have not stated a position don't you think it more than a little presumptious of you to take one for me?


Are you able to follow the threads of the arguments at all? I quoted where you presented it as fact on the other thread. Moreover you used it continually to refute my points. Thus you argee with his point of view.

Furthermore, you now claim you haven't exoressed any position on the forum. If that was true then you haven't expressed anything of substance for the last 30+ posts other than remind me of one interview. The absurdity of your stance is startling, and all the more so because you persist. I can only assume you are trolling on the forum at this stage.

You also expressed agreement with his stance on Israel on this very thread by firstly taking an analogy about Israel and then backing it up by citing the same interview:
http://www.collarchat.com/fb.asp?m=4031111
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
Not sure I would quite agree because Walter's (Israel's) neighbours are telling him that he is wrong all the time.

Had you chosen to watch the 60 minutes interview with amadinajad you would know why?

quote:

They don't even recognise Walter. Some won't even call him Walter. They told Walter to go fuck himself with the "three no's" in Khartoum in 1967.

The 60 minutes interview with amadinajad which you disagree with without having watched was nearly 40 years subsequent to khartoum. Who was in power in iran in 1967?



quote:

and you presented it as fact as I have already pointed out, and cited your assertion from the previous thread "So until you can post facts to counter facts that have been presented then you are being illogical."

Furthermore, while you did cite it, you did so in a very unspecific fashion by blithely asserting that the interview differed but not stating in what respect it did. Thus you presented a non-argument. I made that point several times on the other thread as well.

I point out that ahmadinajad explains the errors and misconceptions you have about what he has said. You tell me that you are not interested in what he has to say because you want to believe what someone else has said he said.
Self imposed ignorance is it's own reward

You stated: "I point out that ahmadinajad explains the errors and misconceptions you have about what he has said." - indeed you did, and that is another acknowledgement that you accept his viewpoint on a number of these issues, and also treated his interview as having factual content as was indicated in the posts I quoted earlier on this thread. Thanks!

As I already said again and again and again - I have heard on TV and read a number of his interviews where he addressed that very topic so I have heard what he has to say.

Any ignorance here is yours for persisting in presenting the viewpoint of a tyrannical individual as fact, whilst blithely dismissing the opposing views. Another attractive trait is dishonesty for pretending you haven't expressed any views and hypocrisy for making charges of ignorance at those who engage properly with the points on both sides of the fence.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 2/18/2012 6:14:26 PM >


_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI: KILL ALL JEWS, ANNIHILATE ISRAEL - 2/18/2012 9:36:58 PM   
Edwynn


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~FR~

I hate to wade into this mess too because of the ultimately fruitless nature of it, but at the same time I despise the deception involved by the Western actors. If we are the more advanced and high minded culture, then it might be high time that we display ourselves as such.

The US especially and Germany and UK and France's reneging on contracts in the aftermath of the Iranian Revolution and the seizure of the US embassy and hostage taking I agree with entirely, and I heartily applauded all such actions in that regard. This of course included cutting off delivery of contracted enriched uranium deliveries with out any refund, and likewise halting construction of all Western built nuclear facilities in Iran, no refund. I would have enthusiastically applauded bombing the holy bejeezus out of them at the time (or possibly the holy be-hommed out of them) but I don't think I am alone in saying that ultimately I'm glad we did not go that route.

The restoration of civil exchange between Iran and the West was understandably slow in obtaining, and up to a point some bit of uranium deliveries and a few partial refunds eventually came into it. In the 90's the IAEA was fully involved and allowed, in fact invited into the whole process of Iran's nuclear program. But every attempt at further restoration of nuclear capacity by contracting with German, French, and even Chinese suppliers and construction companies, all of it low-grade/fuel-grade nuclear generation, was stymied and halted under pressure from the US. The IAEA  and then the UN Security Council eventually succumbed to this same pressure (by the late 90's and early 2000's) and eventually started to constantly change the rules, ultimately getting to the point of making it up as they went along, and Iran's initial openness was eventually rewarded with essentially bogus IAEA negative reports concerning ill-defined and previously unknown (to anyone, not just Iran) 'safety measures.'

All that was before dinnerjacket came to the table. Any surprise how things have gone since? Not Pakistan or India or South Korea (who are making weapons grade uranium, no bomb yet and likely not anytime soon) or even North Korea, nor anybody else is being subjected to anywhere near the scrutiny and pinball machine regulatory constructs and ersatz diplomatic 'now you see it, now you don't' chicanery that Iran is currently being subjected to. The US has a nuclear co-operation deal with India, who refuse to be party to the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. Just to point that out.

Fuel grade uranium (for nuclear power plants) is quite the profitable business. I'm sure that Europe's fuel grade uranium production and sales have nothing, nothing whatsoever to do with their jumping on the sanctions bandwagon here.

To the extent that Ahmadinejad and Khomeini should just be considered as wacko nut jobs, it should thereby be considered that the actions of the US and Europe leading up to this point are nothing more than intentional and ill-intended cage rattling. There would be no better way to induce a country (especially one with somewhat quasi-stable leadership) to turn from from strictly fuel grade uranium production to contemplating bomb making than the actions taken by the Western countries thus far.

The US is now starting to show itself to be under great stress and worry concerning the hegemony of the dollar and such attendant advantages in international trade and especially international finance (most especially the latter). Oil being the most desired and needed and certainly most ubiquitous commodity of the time, any departure from dollar denominated oil sales is a diminution of that advantage. You can guess for yourself if Iraq then or Iran now went to non-dollar acceptance as payment of their oil exports.

Pure conjecture on my part here, but I wonder if the US scaling down on invasions of other countries and getting our regulatory house in order (conservatively speaking, $6 trillion saved, ergo not needed to borrow from China, right there)  might reduce need for such vast sums of international finance to support these excursions and perhaps reduce the imperative of dollar hegemony as requisite to that.


Tail chasing is only cute when it's a puppy.






< Message edited by Edwynn -- 2/18/2012 9:42:32 PM >

(in reply to Anaxagoras)
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RE: AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI: KILL ALL JEWS, ANNIHILATE ISRAEL - 2/20/2012 3:16:13 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds

Ahmadinejad says inflammatory things because his political position at home is shaky,


Since few of us speak farsi we only know what someone who does not like him says he said.


he is worried his power base will fall since the population of Iran is young and generally (surprise) pro-US.


Do you have anything to substantiate this opinion?

Israel does the same because the political party in power only has enough votes to stay in power if they have the votes of the settlers, you know, the folks who are building towns in land that doesn't belong to Israel.
And folks in the US push for war with Iran because when people are thinking about war, they turn to the "Daddy party," (Republicans) instead of the "Mommy party," (Democrats).



I remain unconvinced that there is any substantive difference between your "mommy and daddy"

Then our young men and women are sent to die for those votes.
Sickening, but some people think that tax breaks or god in school or something is worth the lives of our soldiers...

As long as those soldiers come from the lowest economic fraction of our country no one will give a shit. When middle class white boys start filling up significant numbers of body bags then someone will give a shit.



< Message edited by thompsonx -- 2/20/2012 3:22:28 PM >

(in reply to SoftBonds)
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RE: AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI: KILL ALL JEWS, ANNIHILATE ISRAEL - 2/20/2012 3:23:59 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

As I already said again and again and again - I have heard on TV and read a number of his interviews where he addressed that very topic so I have heard what he has to say.


That being said:
what is your response to his reasoning why israel should not exist where it presently exists?

(in reply to Anaxagoras)
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RE: AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI: KILL ALL JEWS, ANNIHILATE ISRAEL - 2/20/2012 3:35:20 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

Any ignorance here is yours for persisting in presenting the viewpoint of a tyrannical individual as fact,


I presented his views as contrary to your opinion.
What exactly is not a fact in his position of why israel should not be where it is.



whilst blithely dismissing the opposing views.

You blithely dismiss his views without even having watched the 60 minutes interview in which he rebuts your opinions. Unless and until you can respond to his position your position remains opinion and nothing more


(in reply to Anaxagoras)
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RE: AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI: KILL ALL JEWS, ANNIHILATE ISRAEL - 2/20/2012 3:49:35 PM   
SoftBonds


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds

Ahmadinejad says inflammatory things because his political position at home is shaky,


Since few of us speak farsi we only know what someone who does not like him says he said.


he is worried his power base will fall since the population of Iran is young and generally (surprise) pro-US.


Do you have anything to substantiate this opinion?


Meh, maybe not, I've talked with a lot of Americans who have been to Iran and have been treated well there. But I will grant I have no studies...
As for how shaky the Iranian political situation is, I was thinking more about how statistical analysis indicated that the vote in the last Iranian Presidential Election was tampered with. Tampered with in a way that pretty much required official assistance. Donno why someone who wasn't in trouble with their electorate would need to tamper with the votes, but sure, maybe he is in great shape, and Iran didn't have street battles between his supporters and opponents fairly recently...

quote:


Israel does the same because the political party in power only has enough votes to stay in power if they have the votes of the settlers, you know, the folks who are building towns in land that doesn't belong to Israel.
And folks in the US push for war with Iran because when people are thinking about war, they turn to the "Daddy party," (Republicans) instead of the "Mommy party," (Democrats).



I remain unconvinced that there is any substantive difference between your "mommy and daddy"


Point taken. Both serve the rich and piss on the rest of us, to various degrees.

quote:


Then our young men and women are sent to die for those votes.
Sickening, but some people think that tax breaks or god in school or something is worth the lives of our soldiers...

As long as those soldiers come from the lowest economic fraction of our country no one will give a shit. When middle class white boys start filling up significant numbers of body bags then someone will give a shit.



Yeah, we need another draft I guess. Or for enough of the middle class and rich to care enough about the nation to make the sacrifice of military service.

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI: KILL ALL JEWS, ANNIHILATE ISRAEL - 2/20/2012 4:05:48 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

Meh, maybe not, I've talked with a lot of Americans who have been to Iran and have been treated well there. But I will grant I have no studies...
As for how shaky the Iranian political situation is, I was thinking more about how statistical analysis indicated that the vote in the last Iranian Presidential Election was tampered with. Tampered with in a way that pretty much required official assistance.


My understanding is that happens here also from time to time.

Donno why someone who wasn't in trouble with their electorate would need to tamper with the votes, but sure, maybe he is in great shape, and Iran didn't have street battles between his supporters and opponents fairly recently...

Those were pretty widely televised here as have been some of the ows encounters. I remain unconvinced that there is a qualitative difference...clearly there seems to have been a quantative difference.

(in reply to SoftBonds)
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RE: AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI: KILL ALL JEWS, ANNIHILATE ISRAEL - 2/20/2012 4:09:41 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

Yeah, we need another draft I guess. Or for enough of the middle class and rich to care enough about the nation to make the sacrifice of military service.


Only those who are over 35 and make more than a million dollars a year will be elligible for the draft(body bag lotto).

(in reply to SoftBonds)
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RE: AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI: KILL ALL JEWS, ANNIHILATE ISRAEL - 2/20/2012 4:15:26 PM   
SoftBonds


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My interpretations of your statements are that you would not like a war with Iran. I also would not like a war with Iran. My reasoning for this stance is the belief that the Iranian government is a somewhat convoluted form of democracy, and that the population of Iran will eventually overcome the rhetoric of it's leaders, as will our population, and peace will be possible between our peoples.

I refuse to defend a regime that has fired on it's people, I refuse to support a leader who tampered with vote counting, and if you expect that as a requirement for allowing me to support you, then you will find my absence in the opposition to war with Iran.

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar and all that...

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RE: AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI: KILL ALL JEWS, ANNIHILATE ISRAEL - 2/20/2012 4:25:21 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds

My interpretations of your statements are that you would not like a war with Iran. I also would not like a war with Iran. My reasoning for this stance is the belief that the Iranian government is a somewhat convoluted form of democracy, and that the population of Iran will eventually overcome the rhetoric of it's leaders, as will our population, and peace will be possible between our peoples.

I refuse to defend a regime that has fired on it's people, I refuse to support a leader who tampered with vote counting, and if you expect that as a requirement for allowing me to support you, then you will find my absence in the opposition to war with Iran.

You catch more flies with honey than vinegar and all that...




I have been in a few wars and did not enjoy the experience all that much. The compesation wasn't all that great either.
So until the assholes who start the wars start participating in a font line capacity I think we should opt out.

(in reply to SoftBonds)
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RE: AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI: KILL ALL JEWS, ANNIHILATE ISRAEL - 2/20/2012 5:19:27 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

As I already said again and again and again - I have heard on TV and read a number of his interviews where he addressed that very topic so I have heard what he has to say.

That being said:
what is your response to his reasoning why israel should not exist where it presently exists?


State the argument he makes, or at least how you understand it to be, and whether you agree with it or not because thus far it seems that you do agree with him. I only request that you do this because you ought to contribute on here as pretty much everyone else does, i.e. make the argument in flesh on this forum, and tell us if you stand by it or not.


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

Any ignorance here is yours for persisting in presenting the viewpoint of a tyrannical individual as fact,

I presented his views as contrary to your opinion.
What exactly is not a fact in his position of why israel should not be where it is.


Provide the substance of his argument on this forum first, and whether you agree with it. I will respond to it.

quote:

quote:


whilst blithely dismissing the opposing views.

You blithely dismiss his views without even having watched the 60 minutes interview in which he rebuts your opinions. Unless and until you can respond to his position your position remains opinion and nothing more

It really does seem that you have trouble with comprehension because I have to repeat myself over and over again. Here for example, I have repeatedly stated that I have disagreed with his arguments on these matters because I have heard them before on a few occasions, and they did not amount to anything of real substance. He did not make assertions that are any more profound than I have heard others make that share his views. He argued a bit differently at times albeit to make essentially the same point re. Israel.

It would seem that you have a strategy of firing opinions at others without stating whether you agree with the opinion or not. If you expect me to answer your question, then it is not too much to expect you to make the effort to represent properly which aspect of his stance you wish me to answer, and whether you argee with it. I will then respond in detail.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 2/20/2012 5:38:10 PM >


_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

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RE: AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI: KILL ALL JEWS, ANNIHILATE ISRAEL - 2/21/2012 9:27:12 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

That being said:
what is your response to his reasoning why israel should not exist where it presently exists?




< Message edited by thompsonx -- 2/21/2012 9:29:52 AM >

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RE: AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI: KILL ALL JEWS, ANNIHILATE ISRAEL - 2/21/2012 9:36:18 AM   
SoftBonds


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

That being said:
what is your response to his reasoning why israel should not exist where it presently exists?



My response? That he is a racist idiot...
I can see that the original colonization of Israel was probably wrong, in some ways. I really don't like Israel's current foreign policy, and I expect that Israel will suffer the fate of Yugoslavia at some point in the future, 50-100 years out, when a lot of present day politics has faded away. At that point, the actions of Israelis today will rebound on their children, and I feel bad for that.
I don't think Israel should be trying to expand their borders, they need a two state solution for their future safety and prosperity, even if the zionists/settlers don't realize it.
But Israel is there, and moving all those people at this point would be both equally wrong and impractical. Anyone who feels otherwise isn't in touch with reality.

(in reply to thompsonx)
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RE: AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI: KILL ALL JEWS, ANNIHILATE ISRAEL - 2/21/2012 9:47:55 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

That being said:
what is your response to his reasoning why israel should not exist where it presently exists?



My response? That he is a racist idiot...

What I know about him is what I see in interviews and what others say about him. There seems to be quite a difference between what he says with his own mouth and what others say he said.

I can see that the original colonization of Israel was probably wrong, in some ways. I really don't like Israel's current foreign policy, and I expect that Israel will suffer the fate of Yugoslavia at some point in the future, 50-100 years out, when a lot of present day politics has faded away. At that point, the actions of Israelis today will rebound on their children, and I feel bad for that.
I don't think Israel should be trying to expand their borders, they need a two state solution for their future safety and prosperity, even if the zionists/settlers don't realize it.
But Israel is there, and moving all those people at this point would be both equally wrong and impractical. Anyone who feels otherwise isn't in touch with reality.

I have no clue how it will all work out but any cursory study of world history will show that whole populations have been moved by both carrot and stick...so it is a concept not so out of touch with reality.


(in reply to SoftBonds)
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RE: AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI: KILL ALL JEWS, ANNIHILATE ISRAEL - 2/21/2012 10:28:59 AM   
Edwynn


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So we need some modern day Romans, then. Worked the first time. Come to think of it, that's why we have the mess that exists today.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 2/21/2012 10:29:48 AM >

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RE: AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI: KILL ALL JEWS, ANNIHILATE ISRAEL - 2/21/2012 10:37:08 AM   
Anaxagoras


Posts: 3086
Joined: 5/9/2009
From: Eire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

That being said:
what is your response to his reasoning why israel should not exist where it presently exists?


I asked you to state the particular argument of his about that topic that you wish me to address, and whether you agree with it. I will respond when you do so.


quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds
quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
That being said:
what is your response to his reasoning why israel should not exist where it presently exists?

My response? That he is a racist idiot...

What I know about him is what I see in interviews and what others say about him. There seems to be quite a difference between what he says with his own mouth and what others say he said.

That again sounds like you very much agree with him, as your statements did on the other thread.



quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

ORIGINAL: SoftBonds
I don't think Israel should be trying to expand their borders, they need a two state solution for their future safety and prosperity, even if the zionists/settlers don't realize it.
But Israel is there, and moving all those people at this point would be both equally wrong and impractical. Anyone who feels otherwise isn't in touch with reality.

I have no clue how it will all work out but any cursory study of world history will show that whole populations have been moved by both carrot and stick...so it is a concept not so out of touch with reality.

Do you advocate the destruction of Israel and/or the mass migration of the Jewish people there?

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 2/21/2012 10:40:38 AM >


_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to thompsonx)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI: KILL ALL JEWS, ANNIHILATE ISRAEL - 2/21/2012 10:42:37 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn



So we need some modern day Romans, then. Worked the first time. Come to think of it, that's why we have the mess that exists today.






I do not think we can pin this one on the romans. The mess we have to day was caused by the britts and exacerbated by the u.s.

(in reply to Edwynn)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI: KILL ALL JEWS, ANNIHILATE ISRAEL - 2/21/2012 10:45:53 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

What I know about him is what I see in interviews and what others say about him. There seems to be quite a difference between what he says with his own mouth and what others say he said.

That again sounds like you very much agree with him, as your statements did on the other thread.


That seems to be your problem. You assume.

(in reply to Anaxagoras)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI: KILL ALL JEWS, ANNIHILATE ISRAEL - 2/21/2012 10:53:31 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

That being said:
what is your response to his reasoning why israel should not exist where it presently exists?


I asked you to state the particular argument of his about that topic that you wish me to address, and whether you agree with it. I will respond when you do so.

You claim to be aware of all of his arguments. Please respond to his reasons why israel should not exists where it is.
My position in this matter is not relevent. That you wish to make it so is most instructive.


(in reply to Anaxagoras)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: AYATOLLAH KHAMENEI: KILL ALL JEWS, ANNIHILATE ISRAEL - 2/21/2012 10:56:17 AM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx
quote:

What I know about him is what I see in interviews and what others say about him. There seems to be quite a difference between what he says with his own mouth and what others say he said.

That again sounds like you very much agree with him, as your statements did on the other thread.


That seems to be your problem. You assume.

I assume based on your very own words dear boy. Don't expect others not to interpret your meaning especially when you are being less than straightforward in your opinions.

You remonstrate with me for saying that Ammadinna seeks the destruction of Israel even though I cited an article that referred to experts on both sides of the debate.

You also disagree with those that dismiss out of hand all the other instances where leaders of Iran have expressed genocidal intent.

Yet appear to want Israel removed or wiped off the map yourself if your remark to Softbonds is anything to go by.

If I am wrong then exactly what do you mean? You're been disagreeing with me for ages now on the issue so its time you made your own views known.

_____________________________

"That woman, as nature has created her, and man at present is educating her, is man's enemy. She can only be his slave or his despot, but never his companion." (Venus in Furs)

(in reply to thompsonx)
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