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RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 4:15:36 AM

crazyml

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Ello!

I know it's probably cheating, but feel free to plug (with or without shame!). I'd be interested in reading what you've written.

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RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 4:21:30 AM

OrionTheWolf

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I would like to add, that the more any involved in these types of relationships, share their experiences the better information there is for those thinking or planning of getting involved. I will admit that in the last 2 decades, it has been trial and error for me. The problem with that is, the errors can leave lasting scars on those involved.

Some of the other questions:

How to determine people are ready and can handle this type of relationship?

What are warning signs that it should not be attempted?

What are warning signs that it should be assessed again while the relationship is going on?

How best to handle the emotional episodes, these may happen in any relationship?

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RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 4:24:14 AM

kalikshama

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Thanks for clarifying!

quote:

By emotional episodes I mean, when an s type gets emotional and says "I am leaving". This has happened with my own girl before, and the technique I use for her training, is Internal Enslavement. She has gone so far as to pack her bags, and then stand at the door. She would then usually start to cry, as she would realize she did not have permission to go out the door. Often once cried out, we can return to a rational discussion of whatever issue happened. Afterwards she often says to please never listen to her while in that state.

I have had to physically restrain her once, and once only. Afterwards, she was grateful as her outburst was again based purely on emotion, and once it had passed she realized it was frustration and the inability to contain and control her emotions that caused the issue. Things like this have not happened in a couple of years, because we continue to build upon the trust each day.

I think in this case you should let her leave so she can face the consequences of her actions. Unless she's been drinking or is otherwise unsafe to drive.

I'm reminded of a family member's situation. His (vanilla) gf has left and returned 2 or 3 times in the past year and I think this indicates a need for serious therapy. If the situation is horrible when she's in it but she can't live without it when she's not in it, there's something wrong with her thought process.

I'm also reminded of my ex's new sub, who in vino veritas decides to leave, he correctly prevents her as she'd be dangerous behind the wheel, but when she sobers up, the truth of her dead end situation escapes her and she stays.

So I believe whatever underlines these emotional episodes must be addressed, and not solely by restraints.

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RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 4:38:29 AM

crazyml

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[Initial reply]

I can understand why the idea of consensual non-consent raises heckles in some people. It's one of those questions that for which there's a pretty obvious knee-jerk response.. i.e. "What the fuck do you mean, you consent or you don't, consensual non-consent is a contradiction.. etc etc). The "slavery" topic is another one where a very natural knee-jerk might be "There is no such thing.... etc etc).

To me consensual non-consent is the idea that a person consents to a relationship within which his or her consent becomes moot. It's a powerful thing that can result in a wonderful relationship, or devolve into an abusive one.

I think there are a host of factors that can result in a relationship within which one party's consent becomes moot. Posters like BarelynAngel have talked very very eloquently about the issue of consent in master/slave relationships where "mastery" (quotes there to highlight the word, not belittle the concept) is a powerful driver.

In others there's a level of trust that renders consent moot.

I was going to ask amaidiamond a question along the lines of "what would happen to your consent if he no longer shared your morals, values, desires?" but that doesn't really hit the point. Both amaidiamond and RaspberryLemon have relationships where the level of trust/shared values etc (the etc isn't there to belittle either I hasten to add) that seem to me to perfectly describe the idea of being in a relationship where consent is moot.

[Not that I expect any of that to make any bloody sense]

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RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 4:39:35 AM

LillyBoPeep

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quote:

ORIGINAL:OrionTheWolf

It is issues with ego that often destroy things on the owner's side. Many will believe they must never admit mistakes, as it will cause the s type to question their authority in the future. That is incorrect, as what usually causes the questioning is making bad decisions. Many will say only the owner determines what is bad, and that is also incorrect. The s type may not speak it, but all humans make value judgments. If the s type determines the person is not making good decisions, then they do not trust the owner to do what is in the best interest. It is often a precarious balance, which requires a lot of work from both parties to maintain.

The key element is communication between the parties. This is not catering to the s type, this is communication with the other part of the whole. To be an owner, requires someone to own, and to be property (s type) requires someone own you. I have often said that many people cannot be responsible for themselves, much less another human being. If it manifests properly, it can be one of the most fulfilling, and wonderful inter-personal relationships you can have, but both parties must have eyes wide open.

Nicely said :D
Where are those writings of yours? :D

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RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 4:40:04 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

How best to handle the emotional episodes, these may happen in any relationship?

Although written as a guide for poly relationships, the "Navigating Challenges" section of "The Ethical Slut" could be helpful to any type of relationship, especially the sections on "I-messages" and "Feelings Dyad."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-message

I-statements are a dispute resolution conversation opener that can be used to state how one sees things and how one would like things to be, without using inflaming language

Non-inflaming language is also not insubordinate, so is good for s-to-D communications and should not put the listener on the defensive, so is good for D-to-s.

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RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 4:42:48 AM

LillyBoPeep

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It makes sense, crazyml, and I agree - I love reading RL's posts ^_^

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RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 5:49:34 AM

OrionTheWolf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

To me consensual non-consent is the idea that a person consents to a relationship within which his or her consent becomes moot. It's a powerful thing that can result in a wonderful relationship, or devolve into an abusive one.

This is the area many do not delve into. Just like anything negative, or a complaint, you will read more stories about the abuse than the success. This is also why those attempting this, should educate themselves as much as possible, and get to know each other on a very deep level. It requires a very complex matching of morals, ethics, life goals, and other such things to foster the trust via the mastery and reception to the mastery

quote:

I think there are a host of factors that can result in a relationship within which one party's consent becomes moot. Posters like BarelynAngel have talked very very eloquently about the issue of consent in master/slave relationships where "mastery" (quotes there to highlight the word, not belittle the concept) is a powerful driver.

Indeed barelynangel is spot on with her expression from her experiences. This is also another area that is difficult for many to understand, as it often requires the experience or near experience to fully appreciate.

quote:

In others there's a level of trust that renders consent moot.

Again that vital component, trust. This also does not mean catering to the s type, but managing them, and the relationship in such away as you draw out their surrender. This also does not mean they become a doormat, as I would worry about someone that did not offer opinion or even resistance in certain circumstances.

Some very good points!

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RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 6:03:45 AM

crazyml

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Again that vital component, trust. This also does not mean catering to the s type, but managing them, and the relationship in such away as you draw out their surrender. This also does not mean they become a doormat, as I would worry about someone that did not offer opinion or even resistance in certain circumstances.

Some very good points!

What if it's "the other kind", pure mastery - is "trust" relevant there? Of course few people would succumb to that kind of mastery if they didn't trust the dominant person, but...

What if a person feels so mastered that his/her level of trust is moot? What if the dominant in question is a powerfully charismatic 'master' who couldn't be trusted to think of the interests of the sub?

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RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 6:35:43 AM

LillyBoPeep

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Are you asking if the /s person feels like they can totally trust, even though the D/M is not trustworthy? The /s is just really taken in by them?

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RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 6:50:45 AM

OrionTheWolf

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I believe that the mastery can erode. The underlying cause I have found in reading and experiencing, is an erosion that leads to the "trust" factor. Now there are Internal Enslavement techniques that can get around this to a certain point, and conditioning can be applied to suppress the trust factor, but those seem to be the exception more than the rule.

YMMV

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf

Again that vital component, trust. This also does not mean catering to the s type, but managing them, and the relationship in such away as you draw out their surrender. This also does not mean they become a doormat, as I would worry about someone that did not offer opinion or even resistance in certain circumstances.

Some very good points!

What if it's "the other kind", pure mastery - is "trust" relevant there? Of course few people would succumb to that kind of mastery if they didn't trust the dominant person, but...

What if a person feels so mastered that his/her level of trust is moot? What if the dominant in question is a powerfully charismatic 'master' who couldn't be trusted to think of the interests of the sub?

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RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 7:06:57 AM

LaTigresse

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Everyone else has already so eloquently expressed my feeling. Anything I could add would be redundant.

At this point in my life, I realize that the type of M/s relationship is all I am interested in. It severely limits the possibilities. I think that we live in an instant gratification society now and most that are drawn to this concept are more drawn to the kink and temporary power exchange.

Orion, I would also love links to what you've written. Thank you for the thread. It's given me something to occupy my brain this morning.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 2/9/2012 7:07:25 AM >

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RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 7:13:21 AM

JanahX

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Nice new pic Lil !!! nice job

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RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 7:15:14 AM

LillyBoPeep

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Hey thanks, JanahX ^_^

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RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 7:17:53 AM

IrishMist

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Consensual Non-consent. I guess you could use that to define what we had, though I think we probably went a bit further ( in regards to how the discussion is going )

I gave consent once, before we even began our relationship. His exact words to me were 'If you want what I am offering, then there is only one rule. You do things my way, no matter what."
I agreed. The day I moved in with him, my whole life changed. Sometimes not for the better, sometimes for the better. My late husband was a mean SOB, and by mean, I mean violently mean; physically emotionally, and mentally. We were a good match

I can honestly admit that for about 95% of our time together, it was NOT fun. I was, and still am, a very headstrong person. I absolutely hated doing things HIS WAY, and often rebelled against it. In those instances, he never told me to leave, he simply forced my compliance. Only once did I ever tell him I was leaving because I did not like something he wanted me to do. His response was to pack my bags himself and place them outside the door. It was a month before he allowed me to come back. I never threatened leaving again. ( I would like to add that he only allowed me to come back because my telling him I was leaving was due to the emotional roller coaster that pregnancy brought )
Our relationship, in the eyes of others, would probably be classified as a typical case of abuse. What kept it from that, in my eyes, is the fact that we had exactly what I wanted and needed. I learned a hell of a lot from that man.

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RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 7:33:46 AM

kalikshama

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Yes, I would definitely consider evicting a pregnant woman for a month because she did not like something he wanted her to do to be abusive

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RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 7:36:18 AM

LillyBoPeep

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That's interesting, IrishMist -- you always have such a unique perspective.
In her eyes, it was exactly what she wanted and needed, so can it be said to be abusive?

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RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 8:00:57 AM

kalikshama

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I'm still grappling with the dissonance of "for about 95% of our time together, it was NOT fun" + "had exactly what I wanted and needed."

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RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 8:09:00 AM

littlewonder

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quote:

How to determine people are ready and can handle this type of relationship?

Talk and get to know one another, date, spend time with each other. That's what I did and realized he's a good guy who thinks before he does things, does not rush into things and lives his life in a moral way.

quote:

What are warning signs that it should not be attempted?

He's hot headed, always in trouble with stuff, his life always seems to be violent, turned upside down, etc...doesn't care about others, basically he's a rude and bad person or wishy-washy, doesn't take responsibility for his life.

quote:

What are warning signs that it should be assessed again while the relationship is going on?

In my past relationship, when he cheated. I just simply ended the relationship. In my current relationship...hasn't happened. He's never given me a reason for it to happen. I would guess you re-assess it when you are not happy and feel like it's not working for you.

quote:

How best to handle the emotional episodes, these may happen in any relationship?

I've never had an emotional episode that was so bad that I needed to be restrained lol. There have been times when I've been angry about something else that did not include him and took it out on him...he gives me a look, tells me to watch my step, we talk about what happened, I apologize to him and we move on.

The times I've been a little moody, which happens with my depression, we again, talk about it, fix whatever is what I think is wrong if we can at all...sometimes it can't be because well...depression isn't always rational, and then we move on.

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RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 8:11:45 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

In her eyes, it was exactly what she wanted and needed, so can it be said to be abusive?

I don't have enough information here but would consider a scenario that protected the baby to be non-abusive and one that protected Master's libido to be abusive, for example if in this scenario:

quote:

Only once did I ever tell him I was leaving because I did not like something he wanted me to do. His response was to pack my bags himself and place them outside the door.

She didn't want to quit smoking while pregnant versus she didn't want to continue shaving her pussy, or something similarly arbitrary that could easily be waived for the duration of the pregnancy.

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