OrionTheWolf
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Joined: 10/11/2006
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ORIGINAL: HisPet21
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This is the problem as I stated in the start of this post, abuse in these situations is not always easily identified from the outside
I agree. I also think that abuse is not always easily identified from the inside. People can be conditioned to interpret legitimate abuse as "love." How many children defend their abusive parents, under the pretense that the abuse is evidence of "love"? What about spouses who defend their partners, under the pretense that their constant abuse is "love"? In an earlier post, you mentioned that, with a submissive's consent, one might systematically brainwash her into psychological dependency and unquestioning loyalty. And the plain fact is, this kind of "brainwashing" happens all the time in the vanilla world. Obviously, its not systematic nor consensual in these cases, but I am bringing these parallels up to demonstrate just how badly this kind of brainwashing can turn out. Do you think the abusers in the above cases think they are being abusive?
Now to the more controversial areas. An "abuser" in most situations do not feel as if they are doing anything wrong. Not all, but the majority that I have seen or studied. Often the s type will not recognize the harm, unless it is sudden and violent. Even with sudden and violent, it may just seem as the way things should be. Sometimes it is the way it should be, as sometimes extreme s types require extreme actions to assist them in correction of their behavior. It is a slippery slope and razors edge.
The internal enslavement techniques only work and sustain the conditioning when there are certain elements present at all times. One of those is trust, as pointed out previously. It does not create a "stepford slave". Some may purposefully instill Stockholm syndrome in the s type, but this creates a faulty condition as well. In the case of instilling Stockholm, the conditioning is dependent upon the exact balance of positive and negative actions. Internal enslavement techniques are used after learning the s type very well, and using their emotional and psychological make-up to reinforce inter-dependency in the relationship, so that the first place they look for authority is in the owner.
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And I think that's the main concern I have. It isn't with CNC, but with this whole brainwashing topic. While I'd never impinge upon a submissive's right to be brainwashed, I wouldn't consider it a smart move. Just my opinion. Why? I think one of the benefits of having a relationship is that you can always grow more fully with someone's help than you can alone. Your other half can introduce you to a new perspective, so that you can correct your flaw's, grow as an individual, and see the world through another's mind. But if a submissive is brainwashed to the degree of "unquestioning loyalty," how can she help point out the dom's flaws? How can she help him grow? How can she voice that "enough is enough"? She can't, and the relationship has the potential to become one-sided.
There is no reason that a relationship cannot grow in a CNC environment. In fact, just as other relationships, if it does not grow it becomes stagnant. The techniques do not suppress the expression of individual opinion, they reinforce where authority comes from. Pointing out an owner’s flaws requires a value judgment, and is not usually done in that way in a CNC relationship, or other types as well. What may be seen as a flaw from one area may in fact be something else from another perspective. A good owner is always introspective of them, and approaches things in a way that the s type can express them to gain their perspective without undermining the training.
The point of CNC is that it is one-sided, at least from where the authority flows. If the entire relationship is not managed well, then it will erode, no matter the type of techniques and conditioning used.
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Furthermore, who will look out for her if the dom turns violent and/or abusive and she can't, psychologically speaking, leave? Who will save her, if she cannot save herself? There are plenty of people who, you know, die each year at the hands of a parent or spouse they didn't report, because they were psychologically unable to. I am glad your girl had you to protect her from a bigot, but what if you hadn't been around? What would have happened to her?
The same person that looks out for anyone in those situations, the s stype. As I stated, if harm is occurring the condition will in most causes decrease. It is sad that it may go to the extreme where medical and legal enforcement is required, but just as in any situation like this, it may be necessary. The issue is not with CNC, but that people be educated on all aspects of a relationship, no matter the type. Not all of the possible outcomes can be predicted, but if the knowledge and education is there, it sets a better foundation for success.
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I'm sure that the whole brainwashing & CNC combo could work with a dom who never became abusive, always looked out for his sub's needs/interests, didn't brainwash her to the point of having no personality, and all that jazz. Furthermore, if people want to put themselves in that kind of situation, that's up to them, not me. But I just don't think that kind of activity is smart, especially considering how stupid the general population is. The chance of you finding a sane enough dom for this kind of thing is pretty slim. And if your girl serves you out of love and admiration, why would you need to brainwash her anyway? A brainwashed brain is a broken brain. I understand my opinion isn't exactly PC on Collarme. But hey, it is what it is.
Usually an owner that has the mentality you describe will not invest the time and empathy needed to bring this conditioning about. It does happen on occasion, but as I have stated before it is closer to Stockholm syndrome, than actual Internal Enslavement. This kind of activity is "smart" for some and not for others; it is situational and relies on those involved, just like any situation.
You ask the question of why the conditioning if the serve out of love and admiration. It is because I want a different type of relationship, other than just one where they are serving out of love and admiration. The techniques used make it easier to accept my decisions, I do not share leadership. Since we do not have conflicts of will in areas, it makes things much smoother. This does not mean I do not ask her input or advice on things, and decide whether to take that into consideration or not. This does not mean I do not ask her opinion when being retrospective. This means that when I say to do something, it is done without argument or question, as that time.
You consider a brainwashed brain a broken brain. So what of the societal conditioning that tells us what is acceptable or not? What of any other external influence that happens on a subconscious level? If we use your term loosely to apply generally, then we all have broken brains.
I understand your concerns, and these should actually be some of the same concerns anyone has in any relationship. There are many nilla relationships that face some of the same problems and issues. Education and examination is the best approach.
In these types of discussions, removing emotional landmines from our comments also helps it to stay on topic, and not get too emotional. You pose some of the more asked questions for the "down" sides of this type of relationship. I suppose as humans we always look to the worst first.
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When speaking of slaves people always tend to ignore this definition "One who is abjectly subservient to a specified person or influence."
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RE: Consensual Non-consent - 
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