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RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 8:14:15 AM

littlewonder

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

I'm still grappling with the dissonance of "for about 95% of our time together, it was NOT fun" + "had exactly what I wanted and needed."

I'm not IrishMist but ooohhh can I understand that statement. There are tons of times when our time together isn't much fun for me, especially when we were new and I was in the "training" stages and him pushing me to take more, to do more, to learn how he wanted things, getting frustrated, in pain, etc...and I'm sure this will happen again in the near future.

BUT it's also what makes me happy and what I need. I need to be pushed to take and do more, I need that power over me, the control and to surrender everything into him. He knows this, I know this.

Think of when you go to the gym and your trainer pushes and pushes you to do more. You get angry, you get frustrated and just want to quit but you don't because you know in the end you'll be in better shape, you'll be happier with yourself, you'll have accomplished something you didn't think you could.

For me in the end it's a good feeling to know I accomplished these things that not only made him happy but made me happy also.

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Post #: 41

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 8:32:36 AM

LaTigresse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

In her eyes, it was exactly what she wanted and needed, so can it be said to be abusive?

I don't have enough information here but would consider a scenario that protected the baby to be non-abusive and one that protected Master's libido to be abusive, for example if in this scenario:

quote:

Only once did I ever tell him I was leaving because I did not like something he wanted me to do. His response was to pack my bags himself and place them outside the door.

She didn't want to quit smoking while pregnant versus she didn't want to continue shaving her pussy, or something similarly arbitrary that could easily be waived for the duration of the pregnancy.

I think the part I bolded is the key. Especially when we have discussions like this. We tend to create fictional scenarios and debate them, rather than hard facts.

In my time here I've seen those fictional scenarios create some pretty ridiculous 'what if's and we lose all track of reality or the ability to rationally discuss reality. Then defend them with overly dramatic phrases like "Yes but, if we can save only but one naive twit that happens to read this!!!"

I am sorry but if a twit/twat, is that naive........they shouldn't even be online.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Post #: 42

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 8:38:20 AM

LillyBoPeep

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I think more information would be interesting, just for a better understanding of the particular situation, but I also think that reading it just as-is is important, too -- there are a lot of things we won't ever have the full story on, but what I take away from it is that it was what she needed and wanted, and she grew and learned as a result.
When I was in a relationship, having someone who would push me, and challenge me, and MAKE me do things was somehow a really good thing to me -- that's a recurring theme for a lot of people really, and the specifics don't always matter so much.

What's important is that both people involved got what they needed from the relationship.

Like LaT said, sometimes the "what ifs" get a little out of hand.

ETA: "What we need" isn't going to look the same, either. If IM needed someone to force her that way and exercise that kind of control, who has the Official Position of setting that as an invalid/unhealthy need?

To me, control and power and the willingness to use them are good things -- but they look differently depending on who's looking for them...

< Message edited by LillyBoPeep -- 2/9/2012 8:40:06 AM >

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Post #: 43

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 9:10:38 AM

LaTigresse

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Excellent post Lilly.

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to LillyBoPeep)

Post #: 44

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 9:14:58 AM

IrishMist

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I have talked about this before, but usually in small terms and in small spurts. Many of my past postings actually touch on this in one way or another.

You have to understand the kind of person I was to understand that how he handled me, was right. At that time, during our relationship, I was a reckless, violent person...I still am to an extent. The only difference now is that HE showed me how to control it so that I could become a productive member of society. That sounds extreme, but when I first met him, I was banging...I was a selfish, self-centered, violently abusive person who cared not one iota for another person. I am still violent, selfish to a degree, somewhat still self-centered...but because of him and the way he handled me throughout our relationship...I can now control the violence and think of others and how they might feel. So, yes, what he gave me was what I needed and wanted.

As for the fun part...well, our relationship had a lot of physical pain involved...I was and am a fighter...meaning that when I don't like what someone has done or said, I tend to react first with my fists. And yes, there were many times that I lashed out at him in that manner. The lesson in that was that he fought back

It taught me that control of oneself gets better results. I did not always want to do things his way. Being forced is never fun, especially when in the end, you are going to do what he wants anyway

So yes, while our relationship was harsh to a degree, in the eyes of some...for me, it was exactly what I needed, and it gave me what I wanted to be happy, content, and peaceful.

What's hardest for most to understand is that I do NOT condone abusive relationships. I can however, understand that sometimes, what I 'see', is not what is real.

edited to add:
I don't want to make this thread about me and abuse...I only contributed to show that there are many forms of consent, non-consent and that what is perceived by most, does not mean that it is perceived by all.

< Message edited by IrishMist -- 2/9/2012 9:19:00 AM >

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Post #: 45

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 9:20:36 AM

OrionTheWolf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

So yes, while our relationship was harsh to a degree, in the eyes of some...for me, it was exactly what I needed, and it gave me what I wanted to be happy, content, and peaceful.

THIS ^^^^

That is the determing factor on the abuse issue. In my ownership of my girl now, she was self destructive, self esteem issues, depression and anxiety. Through control of her, I have helped her overcome a lot of that. There are times that she will say or do something, and I will tell her that I am proud of her. She will say "well I am only doing as Master wishes", and I in turn say "you are also beginning to understand and appreciate yourself better."

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Post #: 46

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 9:24:50 AM

LaTigresse

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Irish, thank you for clarifying. I kind of remembered how it was for you, from previous posts in years past. In truth, your words helped me learn a great deal back then. I saw an awful lot of things in black and white. Through your words, along with other things, I learned the shades of gray. I appreciate/d that.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 2/9/2012 9:26:41 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to IrishMist)

Post #: 47

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 9:28:05 AM

LillyBoPeep

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Thanks for sharing that, IrishMist. :)

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Post #: 48

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 9:40:35 AM

amaidiamond

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From: Watford / London
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quote:

I was going to ask amaidiamond a question along the lines of "what would happen to your consent if he no longer shared your morals, values, desires?" but that doesn't really hit the point.

It is a very valid point. And in all honesty I don't think for me there is a black and white answer.
If he no longer shared my morals, values, desires, well that would imply some major change in him or in me so I think a lot would depend on what those changes are.

My main and primary desire is to serve, to be the best I can be and that is how I find my inner peace, even if i don't always want to serve. On a moral scale, him and I are not identical, far from it though major moral issues we seem to share. In some cases whilst he doesn't share my morals he indulges me for the benefit of my mental health (I have not eaten a battery or barn egg in over 10 years) - no big difference to him if he does or not but for me a big difference.
Bigger moral issues? If it did get to the point that there was a clash that I could not accept/move past then in my mind it would mean I needed to think about if i wanted to be in the relationship (again can of worms, internal enslavement etc) - For example if he decided it was morally right to kidnap and rape someone, nothing on this earth could convince me that was the case.

As it stands, the man he is and woman I am, that is not an issue, the trust is absolute.

Hope that made some form of sense!

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Post #: 49

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 9:41:02 AM

Missokyst

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Everytime I read your posts I have to check to see if I might have posted in my sleep.

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pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
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(in reply to IrishMist)

Post #: 50

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 10:52:05 AM

IrishMist

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quote:

She didn't want to quit smoking while pregnant versus she didn't want to continue shaving her pussy, or something similarly arbitrary that could easily be waived for the duration of the pregnancy.

Actually, the episode where he put me out was about me being a bitch for no reason. He was working on something and ASKED me to please go to the garage and grab something that he needed. I told him to do it himself, I did not want to. And I was not nice about it. He just looked at me, stood up and told me to do it. I said, and I quote " fuck you, do it yourself". He went to grab me and I moved and said that he if forced me to do it, I was going to leave. He packed my bags for me.

He was not being cruel. He was teaching me a lesson. And like I said, it was partly due to the emotional roller coaster that I was on at the time, that I even made the statement that I was going to leave. I wanted things my way at that moment, and figured with the pregnancy, that he was going to back down. I learned differently.

I can be such a dunce sometimes

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Post #: 51

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 10:59:50 AM

LillyBoPeep

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That's an awesome lesson, though - that the rules don't just go away when you would prefer it, or on a whim, ooor that it's not bad to think of someone else and do something helpful. It's a harsh way to teach it, but when you're teaching, sometimes you have to adjust the method to the way your student is more likely to actually learn it. With the way you've described yourself then, he used a method that got through to you.

_____________________________

Midwestern Girl

"Obey your Master." Metallica

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Post #: 52

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 11:16:38 AM

LillyBoPeep

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quote:

ORIGINAL: amaidiamond

quote:

I was going to ask amaidiamond a question along the lines of "what would happen to your consent if he no longer shared your morals, values, desires?" but that doesn't really hit the point.

It is a very valid point. And in all honesty I don't think for me there is a black and white answer.
If he no longer shared my morals, values, desires, well that would imply some major change in him or in me so I think a lot would depend on what those changes are.

My main and primary desire is to serve, to be the best I can be and that is how I find my inner peace, even if i don't always want to serve. On a moral scale, him and I are not identical, far from it though major moral issues we seem to share. In some cases whilst he doesn't share my morals he indulges me for the benefit of my mental health (I have not eaten a battery or barn egg in over 10 years) - no big difference to him if he does or not but for me a big difference.
Bigger moral issues? If it did get to the point that there was a clash that I could not accept/move past then in my mind it would mean I needed to think about if i wanted to be in the relationship (again can of worms, internal enslavement etc) - For example if he decided it was morally right to kidnap and rape someone, nothing on this earth could convince me that was the case.

As it stands, the man he is and woman I am, that is not an issue, the trust is absolute.

Hope that made some form of sense!

I can relate to some of that in that I'm a vegetarian, and my former was a pretty avid meat eater. He didn't plan to make me eat meat, but it also wasn't my business to tell him "you can't eat that," just because of my own morals. i'd cook it for him, or we'd cook together, but i just didn't eat it.

We weren't morally identical either, but on big things, we were really close, and the big things outweighed the small ones.
Would you consider it an issue if your M decided not to bother with humane eggs anymore? If he wanted you to eat conventionally farmed ones, would you? (Does he buy them, or just allow you to buy them?)

I suppose that might be a what-if, and as you said, you know yourselves and each other well enough to know it's not an issue. I'm just asking a hypothetical. =p

_____________________________

Midwestern Girl

"Obey your Master." Metallica

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Post #: 53

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 1:56:55 PM

fucktoyprincess

Posts: 2337
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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

consent ends if we end the relationship. Period.

I agree with this, very much so. I think two consenting adults can agree to whatever they want for their relationships (consensual non-consent, or whatever label one chooses to put on it). But there has to be the fundamental understanding that either party is free to choose to leave the relationship at any time.

The only reason I feel the need to make this comment is that I have spoken and corresponded with people who have felt otherwise. That consent to be in such a relationship meant the submissive could NEVER leave of their own accord and that only the Dominant had the right to end the relationship. I don't know how others on this thread feel, but I'm pretty sure actually slavery was outlawed in this country. So, although I am not searching for the type of relationship that is being discussed here, I think two people are allowed to create whatever situation works for themselves - provided that the ultimate consent to be in or out of the relationship is always in each person's control. I know many of you reading my comment will think, "well, of course, duh", but truly I have met people who felt otherwise - and I find that a scary perspective for people to have.

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Post #: 54

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 2:23:09 PM

IrishMist

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quote:

I don't know how others on this thread feel, but I'm pretty sure actually slavery was outlawed in this country.

This right here is why discussions that surround 'consent' of any kind often end up in train wrecks. Someone, every time, HAS to come and make this statement, not realizing that the issue of 'consenual non-consent' has nothing to do with slavery at all.

Many, when faced with the prospect of leaving a relationship, are mentally unable to do so. They, mentally, can not force themselves to end things...if a person can not mentally force themselves to the realization that they have to leave, then physically, they can not walk out the door with that option in place.
Many refer to this as 'internal enslavement'. And yes, it DOES exist. Just because you have never seen it, or don't understand it; does not negate it's importance in the relationship of many.

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Post #: 55

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 2:25:11 PM

DesFIP

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The whole thing is really not germane to me. In theory he can do what he wants, no matter what. In actuality he's not going to do something that causes a panic attack or ignore me saying I can't be head over the side of the bed because my vertigo is acting up. His response when I've been pushed too far is not to keep pushing and cause worse problems, but to change to something else and give us both time to figure out what has caused my atypical response.

We do a lot of bondage. And for about three years, he would tie me to a pole every six months and each time I had an immediate panic attack and needed to be released. Keeping me there wouldn't have solved the problem, just made it longer till I could function again. It took all those tries before I realized that the problem was that he kept tying my head to the pole. Leave the head loose and no panic attack. Saying he can do it anyway because he has the right to isn't going to eliminate the problem for the future. And that's what he prefers, to stop it from happening ever again.

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Post #: 56

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 2:28:34 PM

IrishMist

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Joined: 11/17/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

The whole thing is really not germane to me. In theory he can do what he wants, no matter what. In actuality he's not going to do something that causes a panic attack or ignore me saying I can't be head over the side of the bed because my vertigo is acting up. His response when I've been pushed too far is not to keep pushing and cause worse problems, but to change to something else and give us both time to figure out what has caused my atypical response.

We do a lot of bondage. And for about three years, he would tie me to a pole every six months and each time I had an immediate panic attack and needed to be released. Keeping me there wouldn't have solved the problem, just made it longer till I could function again. It took all those tries before I realized that the problem was that he kept tying my head to the pole. Leave the head loose and no panic attack. Saying he can do it anyway because he has the right to isn't going to eliminate the problem for the future. And that's what he prefers, to stop it from happening ever again.

You know, I actually have the same problem. I can not, under any circumstances, be restrained ( meaning bondage ). He knew this about me going into the relationship but never tried to push me past the reasons why. Some things are best left alone.

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Post #: 57

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 2:29:27 PM

Kana

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quote:

What's important is that both people involved got what they needed from the relationship.

Ding ding-We have a winner.

Consensual non-consent-She needs to be taken and gives over control. How she is taken is not up to her.

How's that for a definition?

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HST

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Post #: 58

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 3:05:17 PM

fucktoyprincess

Posts: 2337
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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

This right here is why discussions that surround 'consent' of any kind often end up in train wrecks. Someone, every time, HAS to come and make this statement, not realizing that the issue of 'consenual non-consent' has nothing to do with slavery at all.

Many, when faced with the prospect of leaving a relationship, are mentally unable to do so. They, mentally, can not force themselves to end things...if a person can not mentally force themselves to the realization that they have to leave, then physically, they can not walk out the door with that option in place.
Many refer to this as 'internal enslavement'. And yes, it DOES exist. Just because you have never seen it, or don't understand it; does not negate it's importance in the relationship of many.

I was absolutely not suggesting that something like "internal enslavement" does not exist. Of course it does. But that seems to me a separate consideration entirely (the people I was talking to and corresponding with were NOT discussing "internal enslavement". They literally meant the submissive did not have the right to leave, even if they were mentally capable of reaching the decision to want to leave. I was referring specifically to people with whom I have discussed this topic personally, and in no way referring to others on this thread.)

But I do find the concept of "internal enslavement" of interest and would appreciate more of your thoughts on that. Do you mean that if someone cannot force themselves to the realization that they have to leave that this is necessarily a good, or a bad thing? Or is it situational, i.e., depends on the specific people involved, and the specifics of the situation? (I am sincerely trying to understand this.)

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Post #: 59

RE: Consensual Non-consent - 2/9/2012 3:30:28 PM

IrishMist

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quote:

But I do find the concept of "internal enslavement" of interest and would appreciate more of your thoughts on that. Do you mean that if someone cannot force themselves to the realization that they have to leave that this is necessarily a good, or a bad thing? Or is it situational, i.e., depends on the specific people involved, and the specifics of the situation? (I am sincerely trying to understand this.)

While I know what this means by definition ( in regards to others around here ), it is not something that I can discuss with any degree of confidence. The person you really want to talk to is Miss Angel...she can explain it better than anyone I know of.

In regards to my response to you, my thoughts came about because of your comment about the illegal constitution of slavery and how it pertains to 'consensual non-consent'.

I do understand that you are only referring to people you have come into contact with. I fail to find a connection between the two though.

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Post #: 60

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