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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 9:19:23 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Why so defensive?

If one`s faith is real and sincere,why be ticked off when questioned or asked to account for it?

Why so dishonest?

Look up the word "ridicule".

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/9/2012 9:20:32 PM >

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 9:22:38 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Yet you`re saying(and others) that they shouldn`t be parodied(added,for Kirata:or ridiculed)......for some yet to be explained reason......

Are you getting it now?


No...I didn`t think so.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 2/9/2012 9:25:01 PM >

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 9:25:04 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Yet you`re saying(and others) that they shouldn`t be paridied......for some yet to be explained reason......

I'm not saying that. I've never said that.

But hey, I do appreciate your promptness in proving the point of my previous question.

K.

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 9:25:40 PM   
Owner59


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Status: offline 		Likewise and same......

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 9:25:45 PM   
servantforuse


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Status: offline 		I never said they shouldn't. I just said that they were. I disagreed with the OP.

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 9:27:27 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Likewise and same......

Ha! Busted. I thought that one was to me.

Thanks for the edit.

K.

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 9:31:28 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		I speak English(the north American form) and her 1st question in her 1st sentence was should religion be shielded from parody.......or ridicule.....


There is only one answer .................otherwise please tell us who the controlling authority is that will make these decisions and impose and enforce them on us.


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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 9:53:06 PM   
Demspotis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

I try to be open minded.  I do have issues with ... Unitarianism because it IMO is not an actual religion since it has no belief on the existence or nonexistence of God.


You are talking about "Unitarian Universalism", most likely? That is, the denomination created by the merger of a group of Unitarian churches and a group of Universalist churches, and not too long afterward adopted the position of not mandating any particular creed, instead defining itself by shared values including open search for truth. My parents & many other relatives are UUs, so I'm very familiar with it, although I did not opt to join.


I quite agree that UUism does not fit your definition of "actual religion", and at least partly agree with the definition. But...

It's important (to the people who bear the labels especially) to keep in mind that UU & Unitarian aren't synonymous, and technically speaking, UUism really isn't Unitarian, since they don't enforce any theology. Unitarianism, properly speaking, is any type of Christian theology that teaches that God is One, & not a Trinity, including believing that Jesus is not God, but the Son of God. In other words, Unitarian is an opposite of Trinitarianism; this split in Christianity dates back to the Council of Nicaea, when the Trinitarian faction seized control of the unified church then being created, and declared Unitarianism a "heresy".

The thing is that nowadays, there are many Unitarian Christian churches in different parts of the world. In the US & Canada, many congregations had joined the UU association, but not all, so the original separate Unitarian & Universalist denominations in those countries still exist with the remaining congregations. (For the sake of completeness, "Universalism", in the sense used by them refers to universal salvation: they believe that God does not damn anyone & the sacrifice of Jesus saves all people.) In other lands, among other examples, there's an old tradition of Unitarian Christianity in the Transylvania region; parts of northeastern India were... surprisingly to many people ... evangelized mainly by Unitarian missionaries in the 1800's; the descendants of their converts are now violent militant extremists! Too, as seen clearly in their literature, the Jehovah's Witnesses are theologically Unitarian (but nothing whatsoever to do with UU's!!).

My point in all this is that there a lot of Unitarians in the world (just not UU's) who do very much have strong positions on the existence of God, so those Unitarians do fit the above definition of religion.

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 10:05:07 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

The OP was phrased in deliberately general terms and referred to "belief systems" in the specific hope of avoiding any of the inferences you have found in it.


You wont find that. Its too personal a question, believe it or not. There is no way to have this discussion without turning it personal.

When I first saw your post tazzy, I hoped that events would prove your observation incorrect.

The implications of your observation are sad and depressing. It implies that believers cannot or will not distinguish between their personal faith and religious belief systems in general, as a class of things - which in turn suggests less-than-flattering things about their intellectual competence. Ultimately it implies the impossibility of reasonable or reason-driven discussion of the topic.

Having read subsequent posts, I'm beginning to wonder if there might be more merit to your observation than I thought initially.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/9/2012 10:09:17 PM >

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 10:50:25 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

The implications of your observation are sad and depressing. It implies that believers cannot or will not distinguish between their personal faith and religious belief systems in general, as a class of things - which in turn suggests less-than-flattering things about their intellectual competence. Ultimately it implies the impossibility of reasonable or reason-driven discussion of the topic.


Here is the problem. You asked about religions in general. I know about a few, but not enough to speak about all. Nor does most anyone else. )there are a few who are well learned on many religions) So, of course, by that very fact, it will become personal. Not because people wish it to be, but because they may only know of one or two.

Its like the man. Jewish by birth, not by religion. Still, he knows a bit about christianity, but not enough that he would wish to tackle this question. I dont know enough about the Jewish faith, or Muslim, to feel comfortable speaking for them.

Lets take this a bit more personally for you, and, please, dont take what I am posting as an attack. We have had chats about this topic and I think you know that I dont know much about it.

You hold very strong beliefs about the Israeli/Pakistan conflict. I do not wish to make this thread into a discussion about that. I have seen you get very ... perturbed.. with posters who challenge you on those beliefs.. and upset with some who criticize your beliefs about the rights and wrongs of that conflict. I am in no way suggesting you are wrong in your beliefs. But others have.

Overlay that feeling with the beliefs held by someone of a religion. Perhaps you may get some idea of the feelings they will have.

I, personally, have no issue with a comedienne making religious comments. And I have to admit that thought I think some take them a bit far, its comedy, little is off limits. And I do hold the power to listen or not.

But when those attacks come from someone you may have some relationship with, then its harder to walk away. It becomes more internalized. Its like your friend criticizing you on how you raise your children. if I see child abuse, I will speak out. If I am asked my opinion about raising a child, I will give it. I will not butt into a parent/child relationship offering snide comments and belittling antidotes because, frankly, all they do is put the listener on the defensive.

So, to bring this to a close, parody free? No. Little is reverent anymore.

Ridicule free? I would hope so. For the reasons I have stated.



< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 2/9/2012 10:51:10 PM >

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 11:04:19 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The implications of your observation are sad and depressing. It implies that believers cannot or will not distinguish between their personal faith and religious belief systems in general, as a class of things - which in turn suggests less-than-flattering things about their intellectual competence. Ultimately it implies the impossibility of reasonable or reason-driven discussion of the topic.

Having read subsequent posts, I'm beginning to wonder if there might be more merit to your observation than I thought initially.

You started out asking, "Are God and religion (of any variety) ridicule and parody free zones? Why should religion get special rights and a special status afforded to no other belief systems?" I, along with others, questioned that whole premise. And you, for your part, have never substantiated its validity. I submit that you can't.

Next along, you were off about churches not deserving to be exempt from anti-hate laws. But the "exemption" you're complaining about is called freedom of speech, and it applies to everybody. It has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not a group is a church.

So, it seems to me that a reasonable person could hardly be faulted for concluding that there isn't really any topic here to discuss. Or at least, that there wasn't one until this speculation of yours on the possible cause being a lack of "intellectual competence" among believers. I think there may be topic now. But it isn't religion.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/9/2012 11:29:21 PM >

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 12:54:17 AM   
MrBukani


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Status: offline 		Guess you have to agree what does and does not conflict the constitution/law

And what words mean for that matter
ridicule=mockin wich can be seen as cynical
parody= an imitation that can either ridicule or be satire, wich can be ironical, to satire or cynical

Now we can say, you can say anything because of freedom of speech, but this law can conflict with hurting another being.
Because you can spread hatred wich leads to lets say extermination, murdering or killing.

Since we have a blond fascist in our government, you know Geert Wilders in Holland, these subjects are discussed daily here.
And it is worth to adress and come up with a clear solution, in order to protect arrrrr(edit our) rights.

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 2/10/2012 1:48:07 AM >

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 1:40:54 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The implications of your observation are sad and depressing. It implies that believers cannot or will not distinguish between their personal faith and religious belief systems in general, as a class of things - which in turn suggests less-than-flattering things about their intellectual competence. Ultimately it implies the impossibility of reasonable or reason-driven discussion of the topic.

Having read subsequent posts, I'm beginning to wonder if there might be more merit to your observation than I thought initially.

You started out asking, "Are God and religion (of any variety) ridicule and parody free zones? Why should religion get special rights and a special status afforded to no other belief systems?" I, along with others, questioned that whole premise. And you, for your part, have never substantiated its validity. I submit that you can't.

Next along, you were off about churches not deserving to be exempt from anti-hate laws. But the "exemption" you're complaining about is called freedom of speech, and it applies to everybody. It has nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not a group is a church.

So, it seems to me that a reasonable person could hardly be faulted for concluding that there isn't really any topic here to discuss. Or at least, that there wasn't one until this speculation of yours on the possible cause being a lack of "intellectual competence" among believers. I think there may be topic now. But it isn't religion.

K.


Kirata your tone of wounded innocence is touching. But hardly the case.

This whole thread was in fact inspired by a response of yours on another thread. Where you savaged someone for what you felt was ridiculing the "sincerely held beliefs" of religious people. So kindly do us all a favour and stop pretending to be innocent.

If you recall I asked you at the time why can't religions and Gods be ridiculed and parodied - any other belief system is. I still haven't received a satisfactory response to that question. It seems, to judge by the deliberate obfuscation being adopted here by some, I am not going to get one either. Or, perhaps, there simply isn't an answer that stands up to scrutiny. I'm certainly yet to see one.

As regards intellectual incompetence, an inability to distinguish between a single member of a class of objects, and the class of objects as a whole, is generally regarded as a sign of intellectual incompetence, no matter what the object in question is. If that is too difficult for you to grasp, an inability to distinguish between an individual car, and cars in general is a simple example of what I mean. A failure of that type doesn't inspire confidence in the intellectual competence of the person unable to make the elementary distinction does it?

Finally, here "religious institutions" are usually exempted from anti-discrimination and vilification laws. I'm not clear about the situation overseas. This means that in Australia, those churches that preach hate against sexual minorities are legally enabled to engage in reprehensible behaviour other institutions and citizens are forbidden to do. Free speech doesn't even enter the equation. Special rights for religion.

I understand that in the USA, churches enjoy tax-free status, which strikes me as another privileged position for religions. If this tax-free status is shared by any other belief system, I'm unaware of it.

So for the final time I pose the questions: why do religions enjoy a status other belief systems are denied? Can any one nominate a reason why God and religion should be ridicule and parody free zones




< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/10/2012 1:46:33 AM >

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 1:45:03 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
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Status: offline 		Its the same answer why rich people pay less tax then poor people in the USA.
Because they are in control.
Nothing to do with justice.

Edit:It will be impossible to defend the should be if you believe in equal rights.

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 2/10/2012 1:51:05 AM >

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 2:03:09 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Its the same answer why rich people pay less tax then poor people in the USA.
Because they are in control.
Nothing to do with justice.

Edit:It will be impossible to defend the should be if you believe in equal rights.

Thank you for a clear and simple answer to my questions

I suspect there is a lot of merit in your answer.

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 5:55:49 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

This whole thread was in fact inspired by a response of yours on another thread. Where you savaged someone for what you felt was ridiculing the "sincerely held beliefs" of religious people. So kindly do us all a favour and stop pretending to be innocent.

Savaged! Oh my. Ripped somebody limb from limb, did I? I believe this is the post you're referring to:

The elephant in the room here is that nobody really believes in the flying spaghetti monster. The sole purpose of such a display is to parody and ridicule the sincerely held beliefs of others. There is nothing admirable about a bunch of over-grown bullies engaging in puerile shit that wouldn't be tolerated in a Kindergarten. (~In response to this)

And what, precisely, am I "pretending to be innocent" about?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

If you recall I asked you at the time why can't religions and Gods be ridiculed and parodied - any other belief system is. I still haven't received a satisfactory response to that question. It seems, to judge by the deliberate obfuscation being adopted here by some, I am not going to get one either. Or, perhaps, there simply isn't an answer that stands up to scrutiny. I'm certainly yet to see one.

Then you aren't reading. The answer is that religion can be parodied and ridiculed, and is on a regular basis. You've been told that at least three times now. How many is it going to take?

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 2/10/2012 6:13:45 AM >

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 5:58:02 AM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		Demspotis, thanks for edifying me.

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 6:01:04 AM   
MissAsylum


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Status: offline 		I'm going to give you an unbiased answer here, since those seem to be the only ones that have any "merit".

Are God and religion free from parody and ridicule?

No. And the proof of that is the treads that circle around religion on this boards.

Are you satisfied now? Does that answer your question?

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 6:11:30 AM   
MrBukani


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Status: offline 		Go to Iran shout Allah is Shaitan and get your head cut off.



to Kirata dont know where Miss Asylum really stands except that you believe.

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 2/10/2012 6:16:05 AM >

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 6:13:50 AM   
MissAsylum


Posts: 1863
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Status: offline 		To prove a point?

Yeah, i'll pass.

You're more than welcome to. Your idea after all.



quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

Go to Iran shout Allah is Shaitan and get your head cut off.







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