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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 8:10:43 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverBoat

ALL of them...

Excellent. In that case, would you please state precisely what claims about the universe made by Shaivism, Buddhism, and Taoism have been "thoroughly proven grossly wrong"? Please be specific with regard to Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrajana Buddhism if in your view their claims differ in this respect, and with regard to Shaivism please focus specifically on Trika.

Thank you.

K.

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 8:35:35 AM   
MrBukani


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverBoat

ALL of them...

Excellent. In that case, would you please state precisely what claims about the universe made by Shaivism, Buddhism, and Taoism have been "thoroughly proven grossly wrong"? Please be specific with regard to Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrajana Buddhism if in your view their claims differ in this respect, and with regard to Shaivism please focus specifically on Trika.

Thank you.

K.

Good solid questioning K., I'm surpised with primitive technological knowledge how well creation is described in religious texts. Figure of speech right? Off Topic?

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 11:14:59 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Are churches entitled to claim exemptions from anti-hate laws so that they are free to teach anti-gay and anti-queer dogma to children? Or should God and religion be treated on exactly the same basis as any other belief system?


Should any belief system be prohibited from teaching such dogma to children?

If we want to change beliefs, the right approach is to work on changing the beliefs, not legislating what beliefs people can hold and/or propagate. This isn't a question of religions getting a right they shouldn't, but rather of others being denied a right they should have. If I get kids and decide to teach that blondes are stupid and promiscuous, there shouldn't be any interference in that. A healthy society, however, will attempt to impart a different view.

Legislating belief is introducing a monopoly on opinions and norms, and a dangerous step in the wrong direction. It is also hypocrisy, uless a state doctrine is formulated that parents are obligated to teach their children. I don't think we want that.

Also, bear in mind that all people, at all times, have had belief systems; culture is one example.

quote:

Why should we be asked to automatically respect religious belief systems, when this demand is not made for any other belief systems?


Presumably because it's important to a lot of people, and because the demand is absolutely made for other belief systems. For instance, the belief that the flag merits respect is pretty common, and lots of countries make it a demand. (E.g. a comedian up here was criminally charged for burning the U.S. flag on TV when the invasion of Afghanistan first started.)

If you want to see some cool irony, actually make it a demand (as a thought experiment, I mean). Then you can arrest Baptists en masse, along with a lot of Muslims that currently enjoy a protection that is arguably purely ethnic in nature (e.g. Somali are infamous for violating Islam, while claiming to adhere to it, which is arguably the diametric opposite of respecting it; cf. FGM).

Respecting people's beliefs, regardless of whether those are religious or not, seems civil and prudent.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 11:46:46 AM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

I'm surpised with primitive technological knowledge how well creation is described in religious texts.


And the converse. In Jeremiah, we may infer that if humanity violates certain rules, then God will allow the universe to return to a primordial state. Quantum mechanics calls this a vacuum metastability event, which is essentially when the slate is wiped clean by a bubble that expands at light speed, collapsing all that is and was into a lower energy state, fundamentally incompatible with anything we know, or indeed can know. Or, to use the religious term, "uncreation" of the universe of man.

Some texts suggest that such an event might be caused by our own dabbling into high energy physics at levels beyond what naturally occurs in the universe (still a few years off, whatever the doomsayers like to think), while others suggest it would be contingent on less physical criterion (the "deserve to live" option, for instance). One could posit that it would have to do with God being pissed off, but insofar as the texts have any truth to them, it appears pretty clear that s/he decided not to wipe out life simply for offending him/her (the Deluge story of pan-Babylonian mythology, from Sumer to the Bible, shows God as being unhappy about the great loss of life). Virally consuming all resources in the world and overpopulating it would be another non-physical candidate.

If you take the position that the Biblical mythology describes a pantheon that is subordinate to a single will whose defining characteristic is in having a love of life and liberty, with humanity being blessed with the capacity for this same love, it becomes an interesting perspective, and one that can hardly be said to be anything short of a decent guideline for humanity in general.

Of course, even if one decides to take things literally, there's still the matter to contend to that the texts in question were a consequence of redactions from a richer substrate, both for political reasons (e.g. Persian requirements that a single Law be accepted by the whole population to acknowledge its autonomy) and a lot of cultural ones (e.g. regional views on women, which are in contrast with a lot of what the text says otherwise).

Anyone who casually dismisses religion (the most common offenders being "religious" people†) hasn't done their homework.

Health,
al-Aswad.

† ETA: Atheists, for this purpose, sort as "religious" people (I'm referring to a way of thinking, not a specific belief, after all, and the subset of atheists referenced here have changed their beliefs, not their way of thinking).


< Message edited by Aswad -- 2/10/2012 11:59:13 AM >

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 1:31:19 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:



Presumably because it's important to a lot of people, and because the demand is absolutely made for other belief systems. For instance, the belief that the flag merits respect is pretty common, and lots of countries make it a demand. (E.g. a comedian up here was criminally charged for burning the U.S. flag on TV when the invasion of Afghanistan first started.)


Sorry Aswad, a flag is not a belief system. It's a symbolic representation of something eg a country, an organisation, a grouping .....

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 1:40:42 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

In another chapter it says "not to eat pork", but doesn’t clearly explain why. We now know pork can be unhealthy when not cooked properly. Could the be a reason to not eat pork?


For an excellent analysis of the dietary rules of the Bible, see "The Abominations of Leviticus" by anthropologist Mary Douglas.

Levi-Stauss' The Raw and the Cooked is another useful reference on this particular topic.

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 2:00:40 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
quote:

The OP said nothing about " people who believe". The OP discussed belief systems and didn't refer at all to individuals who happen to believe in such systems.


Can you please give me an example of how you might mock the religion but not mock the people who believe that at the same time.

Among some of the more hypocritical anti-queer (self-styled) 'Christians', the claim: We hate homosexuality but love homosexuals" is fashionable.

Clearly these people are adept at making the kind of distinction you are apparently having difficulty with. Why don't you address your question to the next person who makes a claim similar to the claim I have quoted above?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/10/2012 2:11:39 PM >

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 2:12:30 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
quote:

The OP said nothing about " people who believe". The OP discussed belief systems and didn't refer at all to individuals who happen to believe in such systems.


Can you please give me an example of how you might mock the religion but not mock the people who believe that at the same time.

Among some of the more hypocritical anti-queer (self-styled) 'Christians', the claim: We hate homosexuality but love homosexuals" is fashionable.

Clearly these people are adept at making the kind of distinction you are apparently having difficulty with. Why don't you address your question to the next person who makes a claim similar to the claim I have quoted in the first sentence?


That is not mocking a religion, that is hating a life style. Now I know there are people out there who use that kind of bs to justify their hatred, I don't see what it has to do with my question. If the op isn't talking about people, then give me an example of how you can ridicule the belief, but not the believer.

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 2:21:36 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

People deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. Whether you agree with them or not. I didn't need my religion to tell me that, but it does.

A noble sentiment indeed. I'll try to remember it next time I hear the pope prattle on about how homosexuality is an "objective disorder" and contraception is a crime against Nature or read a media piece about how any of the major Christian Churches conspired to protect child rapists from having to account for their crimes.

Please don't think for a moment I am being sarcastic - I'm not. I will genuinely try to put your advice into practice. I can't guarantee that I will succeed tho ......




< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/10/2012 2:28:47 PM >

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 2:27:37 PM   
kdsub


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As long as their beliefs do not break any established laws then it is not your business what they preach or think.

If a law is passed by the majority that so happens to match a dogma of a religion and is not unconstitutional then you will obey it like it or not.

Butch

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 2:48:31 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Please don't think for a moment I am being sarcastic - I'm not. I will genuinely try to put your advice into practice. I can't guarantee that I will succeed tho ......

I'm prepared to fade bets against.

Kirata the Bookie

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 2:57:49 PM   
MrBukani


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PolyDommesgirl

If i may interject, Buddhism, does not pray to a deity and to the best of my knowledge, (as i have only started to study Buddhism in the last 12 months) deals with with the non physical universe. It deals more with meditation and energy.

It is hard to label it a religion. To me it is more like a culture.

i am a student, i could be wrong. i am open to learning. Strike that, i love learning.

Its called a conviction to my limited knowledge

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 3:10:16 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

As long as their beliefs do not break any established laws then it is not your business what they preach or think.


It becomes the business of others when the belief of the faithful is translated into action in the political arena/public square. It becomes our business, for example, when people of faith crusade against stem cell research, against gay marriage, against evolution in biology classes/textbooks, against women's health issues all while waving their spiritual and biblical beliefs as banners de guerre. Your statement suggests you are unaware of the culture war that has been going on in the USA these past thirty years.

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 3:39:56 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		vince it is only your business at the ballot box...you have many times stated views I do not believe in but you have the right to say and practice them. If the majority thinks stem cell research is wrong and through their elected representatives prohibits this research then you must abide. You have the right to campaign against such laws... it is called a democracy...not what vince likes...or what the church likes.

But you and those of faith have a right to believe and pursue what they and you believe in… The majority rules period.

Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 5:46:12 PM   
xxblushesxx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

ORIGINAL: xxblushesxx

People deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. Whether you agree with them or not. I didn't need my religion to tell me that, but it does.

A noble sentiment indeed. I'll try to remember it next time I hear the pope prattle on about how homosexuality is an "objective disorder" and contraception is a crime against Nature or read a media piece about how any of the major Christian Churches conspired to protect child rapists from having to account for their crimes.

Please don't think for a moment I am being sarcastic - I'm not. I will genuinely try to put your advice into practice. I can't guarantee that I will succeed tho ......





Some people and some religions believe certain things. It doesn't make them right, (especially since the God they love teaches love and acceptance) but I've never seen the pope mocking others or questioning their mental faculties. I also haven't followed him around a lot since I am not catholic, but I do understand that many people of faith are not open to others' beliefs. It's not right, but that's how they were raised.

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 6:08:48 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Sorry Aswad, a flag is not a belief system. It's a symbolic representation of something eg a country, an organisation, a grouping .....


I could have been clearer, but if you go back and re-read, you may see that the point regarding flags is taking one belief from a greater system of beliefs and holding it up as an example of allowances being made for the system from which it is taken (e.g. the cultural beliefs of a people).

To draw on a series of threads we've both been part of, I could use another example: very far reaching allowances are made for cultural beliefs about gender (such as the belief that there are only two of them; to the point where most countries' laws don't recognize gender as even partially socially constructed, and don't recognize "intermediate" genders as existing in any meaningful sense).

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 7:16:17 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverBoat

ALL of them...

Excellent. In that case, would you please state precisely what claims about the universe made by Shaivism, Buddhism, and Taoism have been "thoroughly proven grossly wrong"? Please be specific with regard to Theravada, Mahayana, and Vajrajana Buddhism if in your view their claims differ in this respect, and with regard to Shaivism please focus specifically on Trika.

Thank you.

K.

Good solid questioning K., I'm surpised with primitive technological knowledge how well creation is described in religious texts. Figure of speech right? Off Topic?

Perhaps. Or an example of mythos over logos?

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 7:18:49 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Please don't think for a moment I am being sarcastic - I'm not. I will genuinely try to put your advice into practice. I can't guarantee that I will succeed tho ......

I'm prepared to fade bets against.

Kirata the Bookie

I'm not sure what "fading against" means in this context. However, am I allowed to bet either way on myself ?

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 7:26:59 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

am I allowed to bet either way on myself ?

I'm not as stupid as I look.

K.

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/10/2012 7:44:11 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:


ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Are churches entitled to claim exemptions from anti-hate laws so that they are free to teach anti-gay and anti-queer dogma to children? Or should God and religion be treated on exactly the same basis as any other belief system?


Should any belief system be prohibited from teaching such dogma to children?

If we want to change beliefs, the right approach is to work on changing the beliefs, not legislating what beliefs people can hold and/or propagate. This isn't a question of religions getting a right they shouldn't, but rather of others being denied a right they should have. If I get kids and decide to teach that blondes are stupid and promiscuous, there shouldn't be any interference in that. A healthy society, however, will attempt to impart a different view.

Legislating belief is introducing a monopoly on opinions and norms, and a dangerous step in the wrong direction. It is also hypocrisy, uless a state doctrine is formulated that parents are obligated to teach their children. I don't think we want that.

Also, bear in mind that all people, at all times, have had belief systems; culture is one example.


Thank you Aswad for a serious and considered response.

From where I sit, there is a lot of merit in your post. I would absolutely agree that legislating belief is not an option for consideration but something to be avoided if at all possible.

Running with your suggestion that: "If we want to change beliefs, the right approach is to work on changing the beliefs" for a moment ...The standard means of conflict resolution between divergent discourses in our society is reason, persuasion and debate. This brings us to possibly to the crunch of this issue - how to resolve conflict between faith-based discourses and reason-based discourses?

On what basis is a harmonious solution possible? All the reason in the world won't change convictions based on faith, and all the faith in the world will be equally ineffective against a reason-based discourse.

We should bear in mind that a failure to reach an agreed resolution will result in political conflict, which introduces a whole new set of dynamics into the question, and possibly militates against a sensible outcome (no matter how sensible is defined in this context) An excellent example of this is the abortion debate in the US.

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