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RE: Whitney Houston has died - 2/14/2012 11:36:03 AM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
....some narcissistic asshole offing themselves thru the abuse of drugs and or alcohol is just a damm waste and a crying fucking shame.....but not a tragedy.


Has anyone close to you ever suffered from addiction? Because it doesn't sound like you understand how addiction works, at all. Addiction IS a disease. And addiction IS tragic. (I'm not suggesting other things are not tragic, too, but to discount addiction in this way shows complete ignorance about what addiction is, and how it plays out for most people).



It doesn't mean that at all.  My brother died from his addiction to heroin, so yes, I know EXACTLY how it plays out.  Comparing the tragedy of losing someone to some insidious disease like cancer to someone who kills themselves with addiction is ridiculous.  Addiction is preventable, and treatable.  No, it isn't easy.  In fact, studies have shown that people who have addictions really need about a year of inpatient treatment in order to be successful in beating their addiction.  This accounts for why so many who are trying to kick their habit need multiple attempts to succeed.

However, in the meantime, they are stealing from their family, lying, breaking the law and basically being a complete ass to those who love them.  While studies have shown a genetic factor to addiction, it is not necessarily the primary cause, rather there are a great deal of pyschological issues that contribute to it, and addiction will need both to take hold in most cases.

I applaud those who have successfully beaten their addiction, and those who continue to win that battle everyday.  I won't, however, say that those poor souls deserve everyone's sympathy and support.  It would seem that your "association" with addiction was either as the addict (so of course you are a "victim" of your genes and can't help it), or you were an enabler who is still making excuses for the addict in their life.

My brother's life ended when he was 24 years old from an overdose of heroin.  What was tragic was the pain he put my parents through, the things he stole from us, the violence he did to us.  His death was the only thing that saved us the continued pain of his selfishness.

I'm not a huge fan of Whitney Houston (more ambivalent about her music), but there is no denying she had a spectacular voice.  She fought against her addiction and was losing.

The reason that the woman who threw herself off the ledge with her baby and the 16 year old heroin deaths don't make everyone grieve is because we knew nothing about them.  It isn't that we "knew" Whitney, or Michael, or Janis, or Jimi, but as celebrities, we did "know" them more than the woman on the ledge.  In one way or another, they may have touched our lives prior to their death. 

Every death is sad, and I've yet to see anyone post about any death here, whether it be their own loved ones, or the announcement of some well known person, not express condolences to the loved ones of those families.  Personally, I don't think there needs to be more than that whether it is a celebrity like Whitney Houston, or the 16 year old who killed himself with heroin.  Unless we knew those people (or their families) personally, grieving their loss as though they were someone who was actually in your life is a bit off.

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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Whitney Houston has died - 2/14/2012 1:32:02 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

I'm an addict.

I stand by what I have said. And agree with Mike.


If you are an addict, and not one of the small percentage of reformed addicts, then you know that it is not possible to control yourself. All of the current research on addiction points to brain wiring that is different for addicts than non-addicts - making them more likely to become addicted to drugs to begin with. So my initial advice of "just say no" also still stands. The ONLY way to guarantee that someone does not end up addicted to drugs is for them to never start using drugs to begin with. The 16 year old who overdosed never would have overdosed if they had never started using drugs to begin with. That is a fact. If you want to mourn the death of a young person who overdosed on drugs, perhaps you could go through 12-steps yourself, and then start counseling young people to NOT start using drugs. I think that would be a very meaningful and helpful thing to do that would prevent countless needless deaths.

But I think criticizing a public outpouring of sadness for the death of someone who was a public figure is unjustified if your real issue is that drugs and the death of young people are sad. Then go and spread the message of "just say no". It is the ONLY thing that, with the scientific knowledge we currently have, will prevent young people from dying of drug overdoses.

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RE: Whitney Houston has died - 2/14/2012 1:42:50 PM   
fucktoyprincess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Every death is sad, and I've yet to see anyone post about any death here, whether it be their own loved ones, or the announcement of some well known person, not express condolences to the loved ones of those families.  Personally, I don't think there needs to be more than that whether it is a celebrity like Whitney Houston, or the 16 year old who killed himself with heroin.  Unless we knew those people (or their families) personally, grieving their loss as though they were someone who was actually in your life is a bit off.


So when someone like JFK or Gandhi or MLK Jr. was assassinated we should not be sad? I never met any of them, but their deaths (even as history) struck me as incredibly sad. And I don't think anyone who mourned for them as those events happened were being a "bit off", but genuinely expressing the fact that those people touched their souls somehow.

If I am a lover of music, and music that I like touches my soul (which it does), I'm not sure that you can argue that a musician's music was not "in my life". I associate certain pieces of music with all kinds of things in my personal life. Art touches people in that way. And I don't think it is a bit off at all to mourn someone whose music touched you, particularly when you were younger. In fact, it would seem very odd to me if I didn't consider musicians or artists who created things that touched my soul to be a part of my life. Music is a very, very powerful thing. One of the most powerful things that human beings create. People retain a tremendous amount of nostalgia for music that played during their youth and their 20s, particularly, and generally associate particular musicians and music with their lives. I doubt I would mourn every musician's or artist's death in this way, but people whose creativity and talent touched me personally - yes, I will mourn their deaths, absolutely. I loved her voice and her music in her heyday. Her voice and music touched me and are associated with memories in my life. I absolutely mourn her death - and do so because it is as if a part of my youth has died.

I really do not believe you have to have known someone personally to genuinely mourn their death. Obviously there are those of you who only mourn friends and family, and you are entitled to do so. But I think it is callous to deny other people their grief to people they felt a connection with through their politics, music or art (or whatever else they may have created or done). You are entitled not to grieve; but you should allow others the freedom to grieve if they so choose without having to criticize them for it.


< Message edited by fucktoyprincess -- 2/14/2012 1:49:00 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Whitney Houston has died - 2/14/2012 2:04:06 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
Status: offline 		It is my understanding that Whitney Houston was in and out of rehab almost her whole life. In other words, I don't see her life and addiction as some narcissistic behavior on her part, but simply that she was an addict, who tried to control her addiction, and could not.

While addiction is treatable, the overall success rates are still low, and relapse rates still range from 50-90%. So treatment is generally a life-long ongoing in and out from rehab. And every relapse presents the opportunity for death.

For the record, if it matters, I have never used any illegal recreational drug in my life, ever. I have friends who have gone through 12-steps and have treated their addiction. Some have stayed away from alcohol and drugs for over 10 years, at this point. They are all involved in counseling others, particularly those who are young enough to have not used drugs, yet, i.e, "just say no" type programs. I do not have relationships with current drug users - it is one of the initial things that I always try to find out about someone.

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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Whitney Houston has died - 2/14/2012 3:30:35 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
....some narcissistic asshole offing themselves thru the abuse of drugs and or alcohol is just a damm waste and a crying fucking shame.....but not a tragedy.


Has anyone close to you ever suffered from addiction? Because it doesn't sound like you understand how addiction works, at all. Addiction IS a disease. And addiction IS tragic. (I'm not suggesting other things are not tragic, too, but to discount addiction in this way shows complete ignorance about what addiction is, and how it plays out for most people).



It doesn't mean that at all.  My brother died from his addiction to heroin, so yes, I know EXACTLY how it plays out.  Comparing the tragedy of losing someone to some insidious disease like cancer to someone who kills themselves with addiction is ridiculous.  Addiction is preventable, and treatable.  No, it isn't easy.  In fact, studies have shown that people who have addictions really need about a year of inpatient treatment in order to be successful in beating their addiction.  This accounts for why so many who are trying to kick their habit need multiple attempts to succeed.

However, in the meantime, they are stealing from their family, lying, breaking the law and basically being a complete ass to those who love them.  While studies have shown a genetic factor to addiction, it is not necessarily the primary cause, rather there are a great deal of pyschological issues that contribute to it, and addiction will need both to take hold in most cases.

I applaud those who have successfully beaten their addiction, and those who continue to win that battle everyday.  I won't, however, say that those poor souls deserve everyone's sympathy and support.  It would seem that your "association" with addiction was either as the addict (so of course you are a "victim" of your genes and can't help it), or you were an enabler who is still making excuses for the addict in their life.

My brother's life ended when he was 24 years old from an overdose of heroin.  What was tragic was the pain he put my parents through, the things he stole from us, the violence he did to us.  His death was the only thing that saved us the continued pain of his selfishness.

I'm not a huge fan of Whitney Houston (more ambivalent about her music), but there is no denying she had a spectacular voice.  She fought against her addiction and was losing.

The reason that the woman who threw herself off the ledge with her baby and the 16 year old heroin deaths don't make everyone grieve is because we knew nothing about them.  It isn't that we "knew" Whitney, or Michael, or Janis, or Jimi, but as celebrities, we did "know" them more than the woman on the ledge.  In one way or another, they may have touched our lives prior to their death. 

Every death is sad, and I've yet to see anyone post about any death here, whether it be their own loved ones, or the announcement of some well known person, not express condolences to the loved ones of those families.  Personally, I don't think there needs to be more than that whether it is a celebrity like Whitney Houston, or the 16 year old who killed himself with heroin.  Unless we knew those people (or their families) personally, grieving their loss as though they were someone who was actually in your life is a bit off.

This....said it better than I was doing.....and might I add my condolences for your loss.
See,what is not being heard here is that I feel for Whitney and her family,I just feel more for those struck down by something for which they had no control over,didn't contribute to by making stupid fucking decisions every day of their life.And fought with every fiber of their being...that is what I reserve tragedy for .

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Whitney Houston has died - 2/14/2012 3:35:10 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
....some narcissistic asshole offing themselves thru the abuse of drugs and or alcohol is just a damm waste and a crying fucking shame.....but not a tragedy.


Has anyone close to you ever suffered from addiction? Because it doesn't sound like you understand how addiction works, at all. Addiction IS a disease. And addiction IS tragic. (I'm not suggesting other things are not tragic, too, but to discount addiction in this way shows complete ignorance about what addiction is, and how it plays out for most people).


By the way,if you are going to quote me do me the justice of quoting the whole damm thing...do not parse my words in a futile attempt to make me look like an unfeeling asshole.
Clipping the part about those who die after struggling against horrible diseases really ticks me off,especially since the reference was personal to me
Have a nice cry,but don't tell me how I am supposed to feel about things .

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Whitney Houston has died - 2/14/2012 6:18:43 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

The Superbowl performance of the anthem was 20 years ago, Lookie. Maybe she was sweating under the lights? She might well have been using drugs, marijuana at the very least, from the earliest parts of her career, and before, but that wasn't the performance of someone who let it affect her work. Later on, it certainly did.




Ah well...my error...the tube was dated Feb 11, 2012...must have been posted then.

Nevertheless, we lost a phenomenal talent to stupidity and error.

Very sad.

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Whitney Houston has died - 2/14/2012 6:20:26 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

I have had this recurring nightmare that after I die all the girls who have said they wanted to blow me showed up at the wake and were saying shit like.....if you would have only been with us a day or two more...... 


SHIT!!!! I have that SAME DREAM!!!!!!

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Whitney Houston has died - 2/14/2012 6:22:02 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

The worst, the absolute pits, that I've ever come across, was of an Eastern European woman who'd come to Britain and got together with some guy who vanished shortly after she'd given birth. 

The DSS wrote to her saying that (for some, completely legal, reason) she wasn't due any benefits.  The day the letter arrived, and with her baby in her arms, she jumped off the balcony of the East London tower block in which she was living.

A Sun story.  One paragraph, next to the page 3 girl.  The story didn't name the woman, much less the baby.  Who cares?  She and her baby were just scum, after all. 


Okay...ya'll want heartbreaking?

Here it is:

http://www.dailynews.com/news/ci_19962820?source=rss



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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Whitney Houston has died - 2/14/2012 6:38:36 PM   
kitkat105


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Status: offline 		Yes, that was awfully sad.

Another sad one: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/the-illness-that-dogged-a-family-and-drove-young-mima-to-a-terrible-end-20120214-1t3vu.html

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RE: Whitney Houston has died - 2/14/2012 7:16:00 PM   
LookieNoNookie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kitkat105

Yes, that was awfully sad.

Another sad one: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/the-illness-that-dogged-a-family-and-drove-young-mima-to-a-terrible-end-20120214-1t3vu.html


Wow.

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Whitney Houston has died - 2/14/2012 8:04:49 PM   
Duskypearls


Posts: 3561
Joined: 8/21/2011
Status: offline 		Dubai Fountains Synchronized With Whitney Houston's "I Will Always Love You"!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBquqHc_WHo&feature=player_embedded#!

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Whitney Houston has died - 2/15/2012 7:27:18 AM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Duskypearls

Dubai Fountains Synchronized With Whitney Houston's "I Will Always Love You"!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBquqHc_WHo&feature=player_embedded#!


That was so cool! Gave me goosebumps, and I'm not even such a fan of those darned water fountain things.....


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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Whitney Houston has died - 2/15/2012 7:43:51 AM   
TheBigDog


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Joined: 2/15/2012
Status: offline 		I never liked her music. Just one more of them who flushed their life down the drain because they couldn't deal with having a little money. Their should be classes for no talent people to teach them how to at least do something productive with fame instead of being drains on society.

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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Whitney Houston has died - 2/15/2012 2:23:48 PM   
angelikaJ


Posts: 8641
Joined: 6/22/2007
Status: offline 		I have been giving this: the polarizing thoughts on her death as written in this thread, a lot of thought.

My personal conclusion (take it for what you will):Unlike our usual glee when some celebrity gets caught with his or her pants down or when they figuratively get pie in the face or stick their foot in their mouth... and we enjoy seeing them being so very human and somehow that makes us all feel just a little bit better about ourselves: about the time we had spinach in our teeth or our dress got caught in our pantyhose or our fly was down... we don't like to see the gifted and talented, the powerful or the elite to "throw their lives away" to addiction because it is such a strong reminder that if it can happen to them with all their money and resources and everything to live for, then it really can happen to anyone. It can happen to us.



< Message edited by angelikaJ -- 2/15/2012 2:24:07 PM >

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RE: Whitney Houston has died - 2/15/2012 2:30:36 PM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBigDog

Their should be classes for no talent people


No talent? Really? Whether you were into her music or not, she had a massive talent.

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RE: Whitney Houston has died - 2/15/2012 2:32:18 PM   
LaTigresse


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Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheBigDog

I never liked her music. Just one more of them who flushed their life down the drain because they couldn't deal with having a little money. Their should be classes for no talent people to teach them how to at least do something productive with fame instead of being drains on society.


There should also be classes that teach people the difference between their and there........oh wait there are.

Flunked that one did you?

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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Whitney Houston has died - 2/15/2012 4:32:54 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
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quote:

ORIGINAL: angelikaJ

we don't like to see the gifted and talented, the powerful or the elite to "throw their lives away" to addiction because it is such a strong reminder that if it can happen to them with all their money and resources and everything to live for, then it really can happen to anyone. It can happen to us.



This is quite insightful. I hadn't thought of it in terms of how vulnerable it makes others feel. We are, each of us, no matter how big or small, just human.

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Whitney Houston has died - 2/15/2012 4:37:16 PM   
Iamsemisweet


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From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		Sometimes, people whom we have never met touch our lives in some way.  In the case of performers, it is often through their art.  Houston never did a thing for me, and neither did Michael Jackson.  I certainly was not emotionally affected by their passing.  But I cried when I heard Christopher Hitchens died, and I remember exactly what I was doing when I discovered that John Lennon was murdered.
No one leaves here alive, even those of use who are larger than life.


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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Whitney Houston has died - 2/15/2012 5:12:43 PM   
stellauk


Posts: 1360
Status: offline 		I'm going to come back into this to say two more things..

I was never into her music mainly because I don't listen much to R n B music.

But that saying, the American R & B part of the music industry is one of the most fiercely competitive sectors of the industry there is. For every one Toni Braxton or LeAnn Rimes that makes it there's at least a thousand others, who are equally dedicated, talented, and competent, who don't.

This is to me Whitney Houston's legacy - she not only made it, she made it her own, and she did it from out of the shadow of her equally successful aunt Dionne Warwick. Generations of young female R and B singers are going to be influenced by Whitney Houston.

That is some achievement.

The other thing is, when you do make it big, your life changes. It ceases to be your own, especially when you are a singer, or an actor, and perhaps even so a musician or a writer. Nobody asks you or considers whether you accept being public property or not, whether you want all the fame, the social trappings of being a successful artist or not, you get it whether you like it or not and you have to deal with it, like it or not. You have to deal with it, and somehow deal with the constant expectations from your producers, your fans, and most of all the media.

And you know, at the end of the day, behind all that glamour, behind all that public persona of Whitney Houston, there's the woman Whitney, the human being, someone just like you, and me, someone who has vulnerabilities and weaknesses, someone who has issues, and yet someone who - with all the best intentions - went out and shared with us that what she could do and do well - simply because she wanted the world to be a better place. Whether she took drugs or believed her own publicity is beside the point because, each time she went on stage, each time she stepped up to the microphone, she did so because she wanted to make other people happy.

A young woman has lost her mother, her family has lost a daughter and a niece, an aunt, and yet to millions of others, just like other singers, America has lost another singer who will never, ever be replaced.


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Profile   Post #: 100
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