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students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 9:51:30 AM   
defiantbadgirl


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Status: offline 		http://news.yahoo.com/chicago-school-draws-scrutiny-over-student-fines-202924231.html#

Why would any parent want to send their kid to a school like this?

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 9:59:56 AM   
AttitudyJudy


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Status: offline 		I would, in a heartbeat, for this reason right here:

Superintendent Michael Milkie said the policy teaches the kids — overwhelmingly poor, minority and often hoping to be the first in their families to attend college — to follow rules and produces in a structured learning environment. He points to the network's average ACT score of 20.3, which is higher than at the city's other non-selective public schools, and says more than 90 percent of Noble graduates enroll in college.

While fights can be an almost daily occurrence in some urban high schools, Milkie says there's only about one a year on each Noble campus.

By "sweating the small stuff ... we don't have issues with the big stuff," he said.

It's not rocket science to keep your shoes tied, your buttons buttoned and your cell phone in your locker.

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 10:02:48 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

http://news.yahoo.com/chicago-school-draws-scrutiny-over-student-fines-202924231.html#

Why would any parent want to send their kid to a school like this?



Michael Milkie said the policy teaches the kids — overwhelmingly poor, minority and often hoping to be the first in their families to attend college — to follow rules and produces in a structured learning environment. He points to the network's average ACT score of 20.3, which is higher than at the city's other non-selective public schools, and says more than 90 percent of Noble graduates enroll in college.

While fights can be an almost daily occurrence in some urban high schools, Milkie says there's only about one a year on each Noble campus.

By "sweating the small stuff ... we don't have issues with the big stuff," he said.

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 10:03:44 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

http://news.yahoo.com/chicago-school-draws-scrutiny-over-student-fines-202924231.html#

Why would any parent want to send their kid to a school like this?


So they can learn to follow things like policies and dress code before they get a job and then get fired because they do not think that policies and dress code pertain to them.

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 10:05:52 AM   
Hillwilliam


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Status: offline 		Due to the fact that a lot of the kids are from families that are poor, I'd like to see an alternative 'fine'. Some of those families just don't have the extra cash.

Say, litter duty or janitorial duty or laundry for the athletic teams or helping the groundskeepers.

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 10:07:59 AM   
defiantbadgirl


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Status: offline 		Do you always notice it immediately when a button pops open or your shoe becomes untied? I find it hard to believe so many of the students get accepted into college with all those fines and detentions for stupid shit that's not their fault on their school records.

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 10:10:25 AM   
defiantbadgirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

http://news.yahoo.com/chicago-school-draws-scrutiny-over-student-fines-202924231.html#

Why would any parent want to send their kid to a school like this?


So they can learn to follow things like policies and dress code before they get a job and then get fired because they do not think that policies and dress code pertain to them.


Workers get fired because they're too busy working to immediately notice when their shoes are untied? Wow.

< Message edited by defiantbadgirl -- 2/21/2012 10:13:54 AM >

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 10:21:14 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

http://news.yahoo.com/chicago-school-draws-scrutiny-over-student-fines-202924231.html#

Why would any parent want to send their kid to a school like this?


So they can learn to follow things like policies and dress code before they get a job and then get fired because they do not think that policies and dress code pertain to them.


Workers get fired because they're too busy working to immediately notice when their shoes are untied? Wow.

No, they get fired for multiple violations of a dress code policy. Which means that they are NOT taking care with their appearance.

In my job, untied shoes could cause serious injury or death. Damn skippy we watch out for each others shoes.

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 10:23:33 AM   
tj444


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Status: offline 		I think some level of discipline is good (which is in part why rich people send their kids to private school) but imo, this school goes overboard..

and i agree with Hilly that they need a different kind of fine.. they are punishing the parents for behaviour of the kids,.. make the kids work off their own fines so they learn faster not to do that..

eta- dam laces.. my shoe laces are always coming untied..

< Message edited by tj444 -- 2/21/2012 10:27:15 AM >

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 10:43:27 AM   
Edwynn


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I third the motion.

Having actual monetary fines opens up a whole new can of worms. That $190,00 in one year is an eye opener. In the article the school openly admits it is used to cover costs of detention, etc. but having the fines as a relied upon source of revenue leaves all sorts of potential for abuse and distorted intent of the disciplinary measures and rule making.

Leave the discipline in, take the money out of it.



< Message edited by Edwynn -- 2/21/2012 10:44:29 AM >

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 11:12:28 AM   
AttitudyJudy


Posts: 85
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Status: offline 		There's a part of me that also questions having monetary fines.....but on the other hand, a strict consequence like losing $5 would have a much greater impact than some "easy" punishment like sitting in detention with their friends or emptying trash. Personally, if I knew I could get away with something if all I had to do was empty the wastebaskets if I got caught, I'd be taking ones for the team all the time, lol. But hit me in my purse, then you can bet I'm going to start checking my shoelaces and buttons after I sit down at my desk after recess.

It just teaches kids to be aware of what's going on around them and to take responsibility for themselves. I see too many kids meandering along in their own clueless worlds these days because mommy takes care of everything when they get home.

And I'm completely against that "it's not your fault that life is so hard so you're excused from responsibility" philosophy.

< Message edited by AttitudyJudy -- 2/21/2012 11:13:29 AM >

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 11:24:47 AM   
defiantbadgirl


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Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		The fines are wrong. Giving detentions for untied shoelaces is just as wrong. My point is, shoelaces coming untied and buttons popping open are not acts of defiance at all. They're accidents.....things that happen to everyone. What's next....punishing students for nausea and vomiting? Oh wait......they probably already do that if it happens between classes and makes a student late. I call bullshit on so many of those students getting into college. How can they if their student records make them look like juvenile delinquents because of untied shoelaces?

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 11:28:32 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

http://news.yahoo.com/chicago-school-draws-scrutiny-over-student-fines-202924231.html#

Why would any parent want to send their kid to a school like this?


1. Because 90% of the graduates enter college. That rate would be ridiculously high at any public school. For one drawing from lower income students, it's unbelievable.

2. There are students who NEED to learn such things.

The traditional model is that public school provides very basic education and a lot of screwing around. College provides a transition from student life at home to semi-independent living, and begins a work ethic without parents standing over you. Then work instills discipline and finishes the work ethic.

For a public school to provide some of that discipline is not a bad thing. Note that the complaining parent's child clearly refused to cooperate with the school rules. A bad fit.

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 11:46:37 AM   
defiantbadgirl


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Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		I'm all for discipline in schools, but I'm against punishing students for accidents like untied shoelaces. Think how outraged everyone would be if the US government made untied shoelaces illegal and punishable by fine.

_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 11:55:02 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

I'm all for discipline in schools, but I'm against punishing students for accidents like untied shoelaces. Think how outraged everyone would be if the US government made untied shoelaces illegal and punishable by fine.


In the Army it is punishable by push-ups.

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Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 11:58:11 AM   
DarkSteven


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

I'm all for discipline in schools, but I'm against punishing students for accidents like untied shoelaces. Think how outraged everyone would be if the US government made untied shoelaces illegal and punishable by fine.


That's not the government's place, to punish people who look or act in ways that are perfectly legal but will hurt them. But that's exactly what companies do. If you walk around dressed like a slob, your career will suffer.

The school is training its students to survive in the world of work.

_____________________________

"You women....

The small-breasted ones want larger breasts. The large-breasted ones want smaller ones. The straight-haired ones curl their hair, and the curly-haired ones straighten theirs...

Quit fretting. We men love you."

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 11:59:08 AM   
HuCowMilkMaster2


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Status: offline 		Whaaaa Whaaa Whaaa.... poor little babies... they should have been caned! Americans have the weakest educationional system in the world. A bunch of crybabies if they don't get their way.... then they have the arrogance of trying to force all cultures to replicate their own dysfunction.

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 12:01:08 PM   
AttitudyJudy


Posts: 85
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Status: offline 		Oh, you're just focusing on shoelaces instead of considering the package as a whole. You don't know if it's an immediate action or if the student has been observed kicking his untied shoelaces along in front of him for several hours, oblivious to the fact that they're untied. The issue is not being aware that they're untied, not just that they came untied.

They're teaching personal responsibility and self-reliance for later in life. How hard is it to periodically check your shoelaces??? All you have to do is glance down!

If you "accidently" run a red light and hurt somebody, are you blameless because it was just an accident? No, and you get a heavy fine once, you're a lot more careful about not running red lights so you don't kill somebody.



< Message edited by AttitudyJudy -- 2/21/2012 12:05:15 PM >

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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 12:02:45 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

I'm all for discipline in schools, but I'm against punishing students for accidents like untied shoelaces. Think how outraged everyone would be if the US government made untied shoelaces illegal and punishable by fine.

The shoelace thing is rather silly. The students appear to have a dress code, so simply make velcro shoes part of the dress code and that problem is solved no more demerits (and no more fees collected.) $190,000 in fees? Really? That is a LOT of demerits. To garner that sort of fee collection at 4 demerits for 5 dollars in fees is over 150,000 demerits.

Seems that discipline isn't as smooth as the school would have folks believe. I find it more disturbing that a student gets a demerit for 'failing to track the teacher with their eyes'.. really? One teacher, 20+ .. how the hell is the teacher going to be able to tell if 20 different people are looking when teacher is supposed to actually be teaching.

I'm not surprised such a thing is a demerit though since the Discipline guy's salary is paid for out of the fines collected. Can't get paid if you can't find fault and collect the milk money. At best it's a conflict of interest.



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RE: students fined for untied shoelaces - 2/21/2012 12:12:51 PM   
xXsoumisXx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: AttitudyJudy

Oh, you're just focusing on shoelaces instead of considering the package as a whole. You don't know if it's an immediate action or if the student has been observed kicking his untied shoelaces along in front of him for several hours, oblivious to the fact that they're untied. The issue is not being aware that they're untied, not just that they came untied.

They're teaching personal responsibility and self-reliance for later in life. How hard is it to periodically check your shoelaces??? All you have to do is glance down!

If you "accidently" run a red light and hurt somebody, are you blameless because it was just an accident? No, and you get a heavy fine once, you're a lot more careful about not running red lights so you don't kill somebody.




Exactly. And it wouldn't be a listed fine if it wasn't an issue. Untied shoes are as common as loose pants for a lot of teens. It is the "style".
It goes right along with a certain careless attitude.
What they are doing here seems to be working.

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