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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/13/2008 8:07:41 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

So Synergy, you were with those guys, what were the answers to your questions?


I could try explaining it to you, popeye, but since you are incapable of spelling my name correctly, I am dubious you would understand.

Sinergy

Hint:  I spent a weekend with them, and those are the questions I ended the weekend with.



Sinergy, sorry for misspelling your name.
The whole reason people are pissed off in this country is because that POS in the White House isn't doing his job in this area.
If he were there'd be no Minutemen.
Since when did it become "optional" for elected officials to enforce the laws that are on the books?

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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/13/2008 8:07:49 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		      And there is our reply to a vanished poster...

     Sinergy, this weekend among the Minutemen is a wonderful step towards an expanded consciousness, but we need to get you some help for those shyness issues so you can use the "new post" button.

     

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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/13/2008 10:34:32 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		  They`re a racist outfit ,with links to white supremacists and David Duke,the KKK and other groups like that.

Fuck`m...

(in reply to gooddogbenji)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/13/2008 10:48:10 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		They`re not welcomed everywhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXmSmWi2Rlg&feature=related


If these gun toting nuts were on my property,someone would be going to the hospital,and someone would be going to jail.Not sure who would go where, though.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/13/2008 11:00:12 PM >

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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 4:02:16 AM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

They`re a racist outfit ,with links to white supremacists and David Duke,the KKK and other groups like that.

Fuck`m...



Following this logic, the Democratic party is a "racist outfit" with links to black supremacists, Jesse Jackson, The Rainbow Coalition, Al Sharpton, and other groups like that.

I think forming the Minute Men was a great idea, tarnished by all the racist assholes attracted to the "cause". I support what they stand for, and truly wish the U.S. government would do the fucking job we pay them to do, but, theres just no way to weed out the bad apples from the bushel, and hence, doomed to failure.

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 4:17:50 AM   
Griswold


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quote:

ORIGINAL: talmar

Do you support the Minute Men?


(Only briefly).

(in reply to talmar)
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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 4:40:22 AM   
sambamanslilgirl


Posts: 10926
Joined: 2/5/2007
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		i've seen them protesting before when the new Home Depot opened (most of the workers were Hispanic).

though i don't fully support them 100% however i do feel if the government thinks granting amnesty to illegals after so many years is a wonderful idea to appease the Mexican government(though many who cross the borders aren't really Mexicans but other foreigners from Central America too), then we as citizens should step in and take action.  that's how my ex finally received his legal status/green card via an amnesty program ...then he filed for divorce about a year later.

here in IL, if a Mexican (national) citizen has a special card from the consulate, then he/she is able to obtain a driver's license, open a bank account (within the Banco Popular or a few other local Hispanic banks), and social security card - however let me remind you, they are not holding a green card and/or citizenship.  this move was done when Vincente Fox visited Chicago awhile back and he appealed to the state governor (who's very weak but needs to court that important Hispanic vote come next election) and Bush for special amnesty for those who have resided here after x-number of years.  i remember covering that HUGE rally at the park for a newspaper. 

the point is - the law is the law ...if you're illegal and you get caught, back to where you came from you go. perhaps we should emmigrate to Mexico, take away their jobs, build their economy - a reverse effect to what's done here.


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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 7:26:44 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

They`re a racist outfit ,with links to white supremacists and David Duke,the KKK and other groups like that.

Fuck`m...


Owner,
Racist huh? Know what they call the people guarding the souther border of Mexico and the borders of most other countries? Soldiers.

Know what the penalty is for being in Mexico criminally? -
quote:

Foreigners with fake papers, or who enter the country under false pretenses, may be imprisoned:

  • Foreigners with fake immigration papers may be fined or imprisoned. (Article 116)
  • Foreigners who sign government documents "with a signature that is false or different from that which he normally uses" are subject to fine and imprisonment. (Article 116)

Foreigners who fail to obey the rules will be fined, deported, and/or imprisoned as felons:
  • Foreigners who fail to obey a deportation order are to be punished. (Article 117)
  • Foreigners who are deported from Mexico and attempt to re-enter the country without authorization can be imprisoned for up to 10 years. (Article 118)
  • Foreigners who violate the terms of their visa may be sentenced to up to six years in prison (Articles 119, 120 and 121). Foreigners who misrepresent the terms of their visa while in Mexico -- such as working with out a permit -- can also be imprisoned.

Under Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony. The General Law on Population says,
  • "A penalty of up to two years in prison and a fine of three hundred to five thousand pesos will be imposed on the foreigner who enters the country illegally." (Article 123)
  • Foreigners with legal immigration problems may be deported from Mexico instead of being imprisoned. (Article 125)
  • Foreigners who "attempt against national sovereignty or security" will be deported. (Article 126)

Mexicans who help illegal aliens enter the country are themselves considered criminals under the law: (My personal favorite - Every employer would be considered a FELON!)
  • A Mexican who marries a foreigner with the sole objective of helping the foreigner live in the country is subject to up to five years in prison. (Article 127)
  • Shipping and airline companies that bring undocumented foreigners into Mexico will be fined. (Article 132)

Source: http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=14632  

I'll save you one argument question; "So you want to be just like Mexico?"

Only in one regard Owner, I want to have the same attitude toward the severity of our nation as they do of theirs, and others with similar laws on the books. Because someone else has a solution are we, as a country, required to come up with our own method? If we can look toward France for the 'ideal health program' why not Mexico for border security?

Back to the OP.
No no support for the MM from me. They are a militia without a government. They are not organized. They are a magnet for bigots and 'nut jobs'. Even if all that occurs in the minority, it will be the minority by which they are judged, rightly or wrongly, they are the stories that will be noted. The dead dehydrated mother and child in the desert, the pick-up truck with the 'Easy Rider Rifle Rack' that causes a family of 30 in a Chevy Impala to swerve over a cliff. As a result they can only put a bad light on a problem and be used politically as a distraction from the issue of criminal workers being hired by criminal industries. They are a source of propaganda serving the side 180 degrees in opposition to their goal.

(in reply to Owner59)
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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 7:44:07 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		  Merc,

The MM could be for universal health care access,saving the whales and taking religion out of public schools.

Doesn`t change the fact that were formed by the KKK ,and have ties to the white supremacist groups,still today.

Waving the flag or pretending to help on the boarder,doesn`t mean shit.

I also want the boarder secured.The feds have basically let them in and have payed only lip service to the problem.

There wouldn`t be a need for MM if businesses were confiscated or dissolved when found to be employing illegals.American business and the US Chamber Of Commerce,want what`s happening right now,and bribed the republicans to get what they wanted,an un-ending source of cheap labor.They are making more money,and that`s all that matters for them.They don`t bear the cost of any of it,and reap all the benefits.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/14/2008 7:52:22 AM >

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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 7:59:49 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Merc,

The MM could be for universal health care access,saving the whales and taking religion out of public schools.

Doesn`t change the fact that were formed by the KKK ,and have ties to the white supremacist groups,still today.

I also want the boarder secured.The feds have basically let them in and have payed only lip service to the problem.

We wouldn`t need the MM if businesses were confiscated or dissolved when found to be employing illegals.American business and the US Chamber Of Commerce,want what`s happening right now.They are making more money,and that`s all that matters for them.They don`t bear the cost of any of it,and reap all the benefit.


Owner,
Of all people I didn't think you'd argue on issues where we agree. The MM, Corporate scrutiny, and the CoC apparently are three such issues. I only point out (again!) that our elected representatives paid by PAC money paid, pay for the CoC 'catch & release' policy. Those payments aren't limited to the Executive officeholder. In fact it's Congress is where the big money is exchanged. But here's a question that may be more difficult. Would you support a national tamper-proof ID if that were a requirement for hiring or employment as a solution to corporations hiring criminal employees; and this ID could be enforced by ANY law enforcement entity? I don't know the answer to that myself - but I thought I'd ask.

I don't need to review the founding or the CoC or of the MM to validate or invalidate them today. If you did that regarding the KKK you can rationalize that some aspects of the KKK had 'good intent' to combat the revenge motivated laws imposed on the south after the Civil War. I don't care what they did or if the Pope sanctioned their formation - I judge them based on today.

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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 8:20:41 AM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Merc,

The MM could be for universal health care access,saving the whales and taking religion out of public schools.

Doesn`t change the fact that were formed by the KKK ,and have ties to the white supremacist groups,still today.

I also want the boarder secured.The feds have basically let them in and have payed only lip service to the problem.

We wouldn`t need the MM if businesses were confiscated or dissolved when found to be employing illegals.American business and the US Chamber Of Commerce,want what`s happening right now.They are making more money,and that`s all that matters for them.They don`t bear the cost of any of it,and reap all the benefit.


Owner,
Of all people I didn't think you'd argue on issues where we agree. The MM, Corporate scrutiny, and the CoC apparently are three such issues. I only point out (again!) that our elected representatives paid by PAC money paid, pay for the CoC 'catch & release' policy. Those payments aren't limited to the Executive officeholder. In fact it's Congress is where the big money is exchanged. But here's a question that may be more difficult. Would you support a national tamper-proof ID if that were a requirement for hiring or employment as a solution to corporations hiring criminal employees; and this ID could be enforced by ANY law enforcement entity? I don't know the answer to that myself - but I thought I'd ask.

I don't need to review the founding or the CoC or of the MM to validate or invalidate them today. If you did that regarding the KKK you can rationalize that some aspects of the KKK had 'good intent' to combat the revenge motivated laws imposed on the south after the Civil War. I don't care what they did or if the Pope sanctioned their formation - I judge them based on today.


Those payments aren't limited to the Executive officeholder.

True,but the executive(Bush)runs things.The POTUS basically runs the entire federal government.Congress only has a check on the money.Bush issues executive orders like traffic tickets.If he wanted to do something about this,he could.This is a leadership problem.


In fact it's Congress is where the big money is exchanged.
But here's a question that may be more difficult. Would you support a national tamper-proof ID if that were a requirement for hiring or employment as a solution to corporations hiring criminal employees; and this ID could be enforced by ANY law enforcement entity? I don't know the answer to that myself - but I thought I'd ask.

Yes.We have them,here in New Jersey.There would have to be some major protections for voters, who are otherwise shutout,ie.,the poor,and the obvious "big brother" issues would have to be addressed too.But if it was free and easy to get(if you are a US citizen),and your data/info wasn`t sold or used against you,...hell yeah.



< Message edited by Owner59 -- 1/14/2008 8:22:05 AM >

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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 10:05:32 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Merc,

The MM could be for universal health care access,saving the whales and taking religion out of public schools.

Doesn`t change the fact that were formed by the KKK ,and have ties to the white supremacist groups,still today.

Waving the flag or pretending to help on the boarder,doesn`t mean shit.

I also want the boarder secured.The feds have basically let them in and have payed only lip service to the problem.

There wouldn`t be a need for MM if businesses were confiscated or dissolved when found to be employing illegals.American business and the US Chamber Of Commerce,want what`s happening right now,and bribed the republicans to get what they wanted,an un-ending source of cheap labor.They are making more money,and that`s all that matters for them.They don`t bear the cost of any of it,and reap all the benefits.


Owner, where did you hear that The Minutemen were "formed by the KKK?"
Did you read that somewhere?
As far as I know it was formed by Jim Gilchrist, a former Marine and CPA who was fed-up with Bush's dereliction of duty as regards our border.
I looked it up and I can't find any referances to it being formed by the "KKK".
I think they'd be happy to disband themselves if we had a govt. that would follow the People's wishes and enforce our laws.
I don't know how "race" could figure into this.
Most Hispanics unless they're Black or Asian are Caucaision so that doesn't make a lot of sense to try to inject "race" into the equation.
Illegal is illegal no matter which "race" you are.

_____________________________

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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 10:23:44 AM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

    I'm glad you had the opportunity to spend time with people of different values and beliefs than your own.  It's how we grow. 



You might find this surprising, TheHeretic, but most of my life involves having long and involved conversations with people who have different values and beliefs than my own.  The thing I find successful is to not spend a lot of time attempting to convince them of the correctness of my values and beliefs, and try to understand the context in which their beliefs and values were developed and become actualized.

I only bother to correct their use of English (describing the phenotypical and social constructs surrounding those they are seeking to prevent crossing the border) when they continually attempt to convince me they are not racist.

I agree; they are not racist.  Racism is simply one form of prejudice.  They are bigots. 

Sinergy

p.s.  On a related note, the middle aged gaggle of white men was joined by one (1) minority, who happened to be descended from Chinese immigrants.


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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 10:43:33 AM   
gorgeous1


Posts: 367
Joined: 11/14/2007
Status: offline 		Sinergy, one thing you have to remember is that EACH Minuteman group is a separate entity, so if you saw something being done a certain way with one particular group, it doesn't mean all of them do it the same way. Also, each Minuteman is his/her own person, so they are one of many. You can't assume that what you saw or heard represents everyone who calls themselves a Minuteman.

Also, the guys that patrol the border and spend almost all of their time there are different from those who are active within urban areas. They HAVE to be. It's dangerous out there! I have friends who have been shot at and they have the photos and video to prove it. I have SEEN video of people crossing the border. Perhaps you didn't see anything because their efforts are finally paying off?

Although I am not a card-carrying member of the Minuteman Project, I have attended many rallies with them to bring awareness to the problems that are associated with Day Laborer sites. I assure you that not once in the last three years that I have participated in Minuteman rallies have I ever seen or heard anyone do or say anything that is racist, bigoted or disrespectful to citizens, or to anyone who may possibly be a non-citizen. We have been integral in getting city ordinances passed to clean up our streets, and not even the ACLU was able to shoot our efforts down, because we did it right and we did it in a manner that protected the Constitutional rights of everyone. The local chapter I work with adhere to the original guidelines that Jim Gilchrist asked everyone to follow. You can't be intoxicated and show up to a rally. You cannot physically block the path of anyone trying to walk past your rally. If the local law enforcement asks you to leave, you do so immediately and without argument or protest. Anyone with known ties to racist organizations are not welcome.

So, to answer the years old questions, "Do I support the Minutemen?" HELL YES.

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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 10:59:19 AM   
Slavehandsome


Posts: 382
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Status: offline 		The Council On Foreign Relations is a group made up of a whole lot of influential people in high positions, and they're implementing their goal, which is eradication of borders, eradication of national sovereignty, and eradication of national currencies.  We're very familiar with the European Union, but less familiar with the North American Union.  the NAU deal was signed in 2005 between Canada, the US and Mexico.  The end goal is the NAU, but there are steps being taken in order to get to that point.  One of those steps is the building of a superhighway from Canada through Mexico.  They're building that now.  Another is an open border policy.  We're seeing that now.  Another step is the unified currency which will be called the Amero.  In order for the US taxpayers to need the Amero, the US dollar has to be devalued bigtime.  We're starting to see that now, but have a long way down.  Some of you may already know that the US dollar sank below the Canadian dollar in 2007.  Expect further plunging.  Buy foreign currency so that when our dollar sinks, the foreign currency you hold will be worth more.  Ron Paul is the ONLY candidate who is addressing these issues.  Do yourself a favor and get active with him.  www.ronpaul2008.com


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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 11:23:35 AM   
gorgeous1


Posts: 367
Joined: 11/14/2007
Status: offline 		Slavehandsome,
Curious....what's your opinion of Tancredo and Hunter? Do you think either of them would make a good VP?

I am so sick of dealing with Illegal Aliens. There isn't a day that goes by that my life is not somehow effected by them. Interesting what you say about the dollar losing it's value, and I agree with you that it will get worse before it gets better. The housing market and its freefall is the trigger. One of the things that I am watching is the self-deportation phenomena. Since the housing market has ground to a halt here in Southern California, many of the jobs that were available for Illegals have dried up- I mean- there are whole housing developments in the Inland Empire that have been abandoned by the builders- the unfinished houses have been boarded up. As the jobs disappear, so do the Illegals.

Like Sinergy, I am interested in talking to those on the opposite side of the debate, and the general feeling of most of the Illegals from Mexico and South America is that they don't want a "path to citizenship" and they don't want to assimilate. They want to make money and send it home, and when they've made enough, go back "home".



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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 11:25:52 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

I am so sick of dealing with Illegal Aliens.


Are you speaking about all illegals? Or just Mexican ones?


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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 11:40:29 AM   
popeye1250


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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

I am so sick of dealing with Illegal Aliens.


Are you speaking about all illegals? Or just Mexican ones?



Julia, what difference does it make?
Illegal is illegal.
Being of Irish descent I'd arrest and deport the Irish illegals first, just to set the example! And there's a bunch of them in Boston, NYC, and Chicago.
I don't know how someone could be "biggotted" or "predjudiced" against illegal aliens. If that's so could one be "biggotted" or "predjudiced" against other classes of criminals as well?
"I HATE rapists!" "Hey! you're a "biggott!"
One illegal alien in this country is one too many.
People are fond of saying that we're "a country of laws" but when it comes to enforcing our immigration laws they, some of them, get "amnesia."

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 1/14/2008 11:55:18 AM >

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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 12:38:24 PM   
gorgeous1


Posts: 367
Joined: 11/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

I am so sick of dealing with Illegal Aliens.


Are you speaking about all illegals? Or just Mexican ones?



I am referring to ALL Illegal Aliens not just Mexicans. Are you assuming that all Illegal Aliens are Mexican, because I'm not. Do most of them arrive via the Mexican border? YES. Am I particularly angry with the Mexican government for the lax control of their borders. YOU BET.

I hope you're not assuming that I dislike Immigrants or Resident Aliens who apply for a visa. I have several friends who are recent Immigrants. One of them is a Muslim who just became a US Citizen last month. I have never met people more angry about Illegal Immigration than those who waited in line and went through all the proper channels to be here the right way. America thrives on new ideas and new perspectives- those who come here legally are welcomed by me regardless of where they come from- I speak for myself only here- immigration is great when done right.

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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 12:58:43 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		Gorgeous, good point.
I have a friend who is a Ph.D Bio-Chemist and works at Tufts U. in Boston who is from Dublin, Ireland and on a H1B visa who has been waiting for years now to get U.S. Citizenship.
Everytime he's had to switch jobs or any other life changing event ICE makes him jump through hoops!
And he's here alone legally with no wife or children who "need" Taxpayer funded benefits. He pays for everything he needs himself.
So, I have nothing but respect for Immigrants.
And he can't stand illegal aliens either.

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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Profile   Post #: 80
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