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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 1:28:11 PM   
gorgeous1


Posts: 367
Joined: 11/14/2007
Status: offline 		Thanks Popeye1250. One thing I do object to regarding H1B Visas though is companies searching for non-US skilled labor BEFORE they try to find an American fit for the job simply because they want to pay less than the job is worth. This plays into that whole maddening idea of "they're just doing jobs Americans won't do." I do not blame the Immigrant though- I blame the greedy Corporations who lobby and petition the greedy politicians. It all hurts us- the working class schmucks.

H1B Visas are great when we're trying to develop a new vehicle for Mars space exploration that requires specific, detail-oriented experience that only a certain person can supply, but don't give me a line of bullshit saying you have to import nurses from the Philippines when you know damn well hundreds and hundreds os US citizens graduated from nursing school last month and you just don't want to pay what the job is worth.

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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 1:42:27 PM   
Sinergy


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Well, Gorgeous1, as I pointed out, I am not specifically stating that they are not doing anything important.

I simply found a bunch of aspects of it to be odd.

The stories of illegal immigrant activity always seemed to follow certain guidelines.

1)  It happened in areas that were not where we were watching.

2)  They had long stories about how instrumental their activities were in maintaining communications between the Border Patrol, etc.

2a)  None of this communication actually happened to be discussed on the channel everybodies radios were tuned to while it was going on.  They use the same radios I use in the harbor, I know how they are set up to work.

3)  1000 hours of videotaping by the guy doing his documentary, video taping by English Al-Jazeera (I declined to be interviewed, I was just an observer) and other news agencies, etc., show no activity.

They might be 100% accurate in everything they say.  I posted the things I found odd.  I thought the plethora of anecdotal accounts, warnings to stay fully armed, constant entreaties for donations, and lack of any hard evidence to be reminiscent of  the approach used by various religious (EST, Scientology) and multi-level marketing (Amway) and government (the Bush administration) organizations to gain converts to the true believer side of things.

I dont know Gilchrist's approach or anything.  The term "minutemen" cannot be copyrighted and there are (according to the group i was with) 230 or more different organizations using that term.

Sinergy


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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 2:11:07 PM   
gorgeous1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy


Well, Gorgeous1, as I pointed out, I am not specifically stating that they are not doing anything important.

I simply found a bunch of aspects of it to be odd.

The stories of illegal immigrant activity always seemed to follow certain guidelines.

1)  It happened in areas that were not where we were watching.

2)  They had long stories about how instrumental their activities were in maintaining communications between the Border Patrol, etc.

2a)  None of this communication actually happened to be discussed on the channel everybodies radios were tuned to while it was going on.  They use the same radios I use in the harbor, I know how they are set up to work.

3)  1000 hours of videotaping by the guy doing his documentary, video taping by English Al-Jazeera (I declined to be interviewed, I was just an observer) and other news agencies, etc., show no activity.

They might be 100% accurate in everything they say.  I posted the things I found odd.  I thought the plethora of anecdotal accounts, warnings to stay fully armed, constant entreaties for donations, and lack of any hard evidence to be reminiscent of  the approach used by various religious (EST, Scientology) and multi-level marketing (Amway) and government (the Bush administration) organizations to gain converts to the true believer side of things.

I dont know Gilchrist's approach or anything.  The term "minutemen" cannot be copyrighted and there are (according to the group i was with) 230 or more different organizations using that term.

Sinergy



Well, I know quite a few Minutemen and they haven't given more than couple hundred bucks to the Cause. I happen to personally know Jim Gilchrist and he's never asked me for money- never. The only thing he ever did was loudly say to me, "Why are you whispering the word "Illegal?" Why are you ashamed to say the word? It's not a dirty word, it's a fact!" I answered that we were at a party where family members of the host (who was a Minutewoman) were there and I didn't want to cause trouble within the family. Jim is an outspoken guy.

As far as people who actually spend time at the border, I know the C---- Minutemen. I will PM you and ask who you were with.


I have seen film footage of people crossing the border and of people using violence and weapons to do so. Perhaps you toured a less trafficked area or it was a dead time. People tend to cross the border in waves. The fact that the housing market has slowed down has had a direct effect on the amount of border crossings. Competition for work has become fierce amongst those who are already here. Check any Day Laborer site today and you will notice there are less people and more fights and more desperation to be picked up. A perfect example is a Day Labor site located within my city. Ten years ago, there were maybe 10-20 day laborers. During the height of the housing market and the incessant taking of equity out of homes to do remodeling projects, there were 300+ dudes at the site. Toaday, there are maybe 50 or so guys. Part of that is due to the fact that out officers are cross-trained with ICE and have the power to get these guys off the streets, but a great deal of it is due to supply of jobs.


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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 3:11:59 PM   
juliaoceania


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Status: offline 		Six percent of illegal immigrants use the Canadian border... why aren't any Minutemen up there?....hmmmmm

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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 3:19:21 PM   
gorgeous1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Six percent of illegal immigrants use the Canadian border... why aren't any Minutemen up there?....hmmmmm



Because 94% of them are crossing elsewhere.

The dutchman should put his finger in the hole of the dam that is most likely to burst.

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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 3:34:45 PM   
MissHarlet


Posts: 2728
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From: El Paso , TX US
Status: offline 		I grew up on the mexican border and my father who is 78 still works for homeland security so perhaps I am biased .. I even grew up  in a community where as an angloamerican I was a distinct minority.  Now as I get on my soapbox I will say loudly and with the greatest conviction that  I have the greatest respect for immigrants that have gone thru the long legal process of coming into this country the right way.  I have the greatesr disdain for illegal immigrants no matter their reason for being in this country.  Why is it ok for them to break our laws but not for anyone else todo so?  

The key word is ILLEGAL.   I have mixed feelings about the minute men .. and mostly hate that anyone finds a need for them.  I also acknowledge that the government is not doing all that can be done to take care of this problem.  Homeland security personnel often have their hands tied unofficially.



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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 3:37:09 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gorgeous1


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Six percent of illegal immigrants use the Canadian border... why aren't any Minutemen up there?....hmmmmm



Because 94% of them are crossing elsewhere.

The dutchman should put his finger in the hole of the dam that is most likely to burst.


Did you realize that the Canadian borders are easier to cross, and it would be much easier for terrorists to cross using this border. Not to mention there are many known terrorist groups there, Jihadist ones... yet still, no Minutemen protecting us up there? Seems a glaring disregard if you ask me.


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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 4:54:33 PM   
gorgeous1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: gorgeous1


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Six percent of illegal immigrants use the Canadian border... why aren't any Minutemen up there?....hmmmmm



Because 94% of them are crossing elsewhere.

The dutchman should put his finger in the hole of the dam that is most likely to burst.




Did you realize that the Canadian borders are easier to cross, and it would be much easier for terrorists to cross using this border. Not to mention there are many known terrorist groups there, Jihadist ones... yet still, no Minutemen protecting us up there? Seems a glaring disregard if you ask me.



I don't see a glaring disregard at all. The Minutemen are around to raise awareness. Since most of the 6% coming in from Canada are coming in via air flight, where do you suggest the Minutemen hold their rallies? At the Airport? If so, which one? Do you know of any Canadian Airports that would be a good place to start? Several years back, a group of concerned citizens in San Diego tried to do just that and they were stopped.

Jihadists can also pass through via Mexico. Mara Salvatrucha members have stated they have no qualms with smuggling terrorists over the Mexican Border.

Another reason why the Minutemen focus on the Mexican Border is because the Canadian government isn't blatantly encouraging people to sneak into the US. The Mexican Government is.


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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 5:09:27 PM   
juliaoceania


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Status: offline 		Do you really think that there are not terrorists that would use the Canadian border to cross?

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/05/world/americas/05border.html

U.S.-Canada Border Shockingly Insecure
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/7/4/125334.shtml

Is Canada a Safe Haven for Terrorists?
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/trail/etc/canada.html

Canadian Border a Back Door for Terrorists?
http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20050407-090715-2323r.htm

From Far and Wide, O Canada, Terrorist Killers Come to Thee
http://www.isranet.org/DataBank/canada_terrorism.htm#grady

Edited to add, you know, I will believe that the Minutemen are not bigoted when they march their asses up the Canadian border and watch that one too.



< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 1/14/2008 5:12:18 PM >

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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 5:58:27 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Six percent of illegal immigrants use the Canadian border... why aren't any Minutemen up there?....hmmmmm


Well Julia there are minutemen along the Maine and New Hampshire borders.
But, those areas really aren't good areas to cross illegally.
They are heavily forested and I mean *heavily*. You'd be lucky to make 2 miles a day through some of those areas.
In summer and spring you'd get eaten by black flies and mosquitos, in winter you'd freeze to death in an hour.
And there's the odd Timber Rattler too.
These areas are remote and easy to get lost in forever.
Then there's the Rednecks up there.
They're all hunters and woodsmen.
You see one of them who's not working all of a sudden get a brandnew pick up truck and some other things and it kind of makes you wonder where they got the money for that stuff walking around in the woods all the time.
Easy place to dispose of a body.

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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 6:01:37 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

Raise the issue of illegal immigrants sneaking across the border, and images come to mind of people wading across the Rio Grande or hiking across a scorching desert. But for United States Border Patrol officials like Robert Finley, chief agent for a nearly 500-mile stretch of the United States-Canadian border here in the Great Plains, there are other situations to worry about now as he faces new mandates to secure the border against terrorists. ''There are all kinds of means to get across the prairie illegally,'' said Mr. Finley, whose district runs from the Continental Divide in Montana well into North Dakota. ''People use bicycles here, they drive in on snowmobiles. They come over by horseback.'' Mr. Finley's concerns highlight the difficulties officials face as they race to tighten this country's 5,000-mile northern border

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C07E7DB1F3DF937A35753C1A9679C8B63



< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 1/14/2008 6:02:14 PM >

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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 6:45:10 PM   
christine1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: gorgeous1


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: gorgeous1


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Six percent of illegal immigrants use the Canadian border... why aren't any Minutemen up there?....hmmmmm



Because 94% of them are crossing elsewhere.

The dutchman should put his finger in the hole of the dam that is most likely to burst.




Did you realize that the Canadian borders are easier to cross, and it would be much easier for terrorists to cross using this border. Not to mention there are many known terrorist groups there, Jihadist ones... yet still, no Minutemen protecting us up there? Seems a glaring disregard if you ask me.



I don't see a glaring disregard at all. The Minutemen are around to raise awareness. Since most of the 6% coming in from Canada are coming in via air flight, where do you suggest the Minutemen hold their rallies? At the Airport? If so, which one? Do you know of any Canadian Airports that would be a good place to start? Several years back, a group of concerned citizens in San Diego tried to do just that and they were stopped.

Jihadists can also pass through via Mexico. Mara Salvatrucha members have stated they have no qualms with smuggling terrorists over the Mexican Border.

Another reason why the Minutemen focus on the Mexican Border is because the Canadian government isn't blatantly encouraging people to sneak into the US. The Mexican Government is.





i think that any American who is willing to do something to protect the borders is a saint, whether it is north or south, be it border security or the minute men.  what border security, (yes they are on the northern border),  or the minute men are doing, wherever they are...they are doing more than the people that are simply complaining about logistics.

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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 6:53:55 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

hey are doing more than the people that are simply complaining about logistics.


I am not complaining at all. I find the whole border snafu to be telling of how our leaders do nothing to really solve our problems, and do a lot to cover them up with hot button issues and scapegoating.

I want to study these issues in graduate school. Basically, I think it is really easy to target certain people as being a problem, when the real problem is economic. If people could make a decent wage where they live they wouldn't be coming here. And if employers weren't willing to capitalize on these people's plight, they wouldn't be coming here. I think we should chase all the people who hire them out of the country. No amount of prancing around at the border with what amounts to high tech toys to make a bunch of middle aged White men feel empowered, is going to change the fact if people can make money here, and need to feed their families, they are going to cross the border. It is pretty simple.

Now please do not blast me for "arguing", because I damn well am arguing... it is called argumentation and it is done when people debate.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 1/14/2008 6:54:45 PM >

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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 6:56:46 PM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Raise the issue of illegal immigrants sneaking across the border, and images come to mind of people wading across the Rio Grande or hiking across a scorching desert. But for United States Border Patrol officials like Robert Finley, chief agent for a nearly 500-mile stretch of the United States-Canadian border here in the Great Plains, there are other situations to worry about now as he faces new mandates to secure the border against terrorists. ''There are all kinds of means to get across the prairie illegally,'' said Mr. Finley, whose district runs from the Continental Divide in Montana well into North Dakota. ''People use bicycles here, they drive in on snowmobiles. They come over by horseback.'' Mr. Finley's concerns highlight the difficulties officials face as they race to tighten this country's 5,000-mile northern border

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C07E7DB1F3DF937A35753C1A9679C8B63




That's a perfect situation for minefields.


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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 6:59:29 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		You cannot be serious... are you seriously thinking about putting minefields up there?

My point remains, why aren't the Minutemen up there? I guess in the North they speak English and are White.


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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 7:01:39 PM   
gorgeous1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Do you really think that there are not terrorists that would use the Canadian border to cross?

gorgeous' NOTE: snipped the links out

Edited to add, you know, I will believe that the Minutemen are not bigoted when they march their asses up the Canadian border and watch that one too.





Do you mean physically traipsing over the Canadian border? Of course a percentage of that 6% is doing just that.

So...you think that because the Minutemen are not on the Canadian Border, that makes them bigoted? That doesn't make any sense at all. The Mexican border is being crossed more often. 10,000 illegal aliens cross the US Mexican border each day (3.65 million per year) as opposed to about 150 people crossing the Canadian border each day either by foot, plane, train or automobile. The US Canadian border is over 5,500 miles- the longest commonly shared border in the world. I don't see how the Minutemen could really be effective if they tried to man the border. Are you trying to say the Minutemen should be fair and put half their ranks on the Canadian border and half on the Mexican border? Should we put some in boats to man the seas as well?

I'm sorry, but this logic isn't logical. I mean, if you had two swimming pools and one was full of adults and one was full of kids and you only had one lifeguard, where would you put your lifeguard? You'd put them where it made the most sense. If you were a triage nurse and you had someone with a gaping head wound and someone with the flu, who would you fast track to the ER?

It's all about the numbers.

By the way, the Minutemen HAVE worked on the Canadian Border before:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,170833,00.html

If you Google it, you can find more.

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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 7:03:21 PM   
SimplySubmissive


Posts: 216
Joined: 1/2/2004
Status: offline 		There is a problem at the Canadian border. The Border Patrol agents are being transfered south, in large numbers.. disrupting families, and creating problems with recruitment and retention. The borders are more secure since 9-11, cameras installed, etc, but you can literally walk across. There are 2 paralell highways, seperated by a few feet of grass, one in each contry. There are sensors, but still..
A man was arrested for "transporting" large amounts of marijuana recently,and all they did was meet, one on each highway, and one tossed some duffel bags into the other guy's pick-up. Got caught because of the cameras.(and use of his own truck).
There have been terrorists stopped trying to bring explosives across in WA, So it has been thought of, and tried already.


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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 7:06:38 PM   
christine1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

hey are doing more than the people that are simply complaining about logistics.


I am not complaining at all. I find the whole border snafu to be telling of how our leaders do nothing to really solve our problems, and do a lot to cover them up with hot button issues and scapegoating.

I want to study these issues in graduate school. Basically, I think it is really easy to target certain people as being a problem, when the real problem is economic. If people could make a decent wage where they live they wouldn't be coming here. And if employers weren't willing to capitalize on these people's plight, they wouldn't be coming here. I think we should chase all the people who hire them out of the country. No amount of prancing around at the border with what amounts to high tech toys to make a bunch of middle aged White men feel empowered, is going to change the fact if people can make money here, and need to feed their families, they are going to cross the border. It is pretty simple.

Now please do not blast me for "arguing", because I damn well am arguing... it is called argumentation and it is done when people debate.


hmmmm i don't think i said anything about arguing concerning you, but whatever...

i agree with what you are saying somewhat here, but i don't think that mexico's wage problems should be ours.  and the minute men aren't limited to "middle aged white men" wow. 
i also agree with you that the employers of the illegals should be run out or have something done to them that will make them think twice about their actions.
but i still dont' think it is a matter of logistics and percentiles.
i think the only way to solve the border problem is to get someone in office who cares about it and doesnt' have foreign money in their pockets...but i also believe that one voice can make a difference..(i.e, the minutemen or whomever)...it only takes one to start something.  sometimes i think it takes more than relying on government to get things done. 
yeah, if you dont' agree, don't get into a pissing contest with me and  please don't ask to see my pecker.

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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 7:13:31 PM   
GoddessDustyGold


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Regarding minutemen at the Canadian border.
Well, I live in Az, so the ones I know would logically be protecting the area nearby.  That would be the southern border.  We don't have people traveling here to protect the Az border areas.  They are Arizonans. 
If the northern border states want to rally and get a few groups going...*shrug*  I really can't answer for the attitudes of those states. 
Minutemen?  Yes...  Wishing there was no reason for them, but, sadly there is.  So I do support them, and know more than one.  The ones I know are good people who take on a tough job.  I wouldn't want to sit there for hours baking in the sun.  I am glad they are willing to do so.
But then I am also glad the the serial rapist (grabbing after carefully watching habits and meticulous planning 12-15 year old girls) in a nearby town was finally caught.  *Sigh*  He was yet another "illegal".
http://www.abc15.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=5f26227e-9f17-4444-b1d1-d8d27c4e72f6

< Message edited by GoddessDustyGold -- 1/14/2008 7:14:19 PM >

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RE: Do you support the Minute Men? - 1/14/2008 7:18:50 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

You cannot be serious... are you seriously thinking about putting minefields up there?

My point remains, why aren't the Minutemen up there? I guess in the North they speak English and are White.



Julia, just a wild guess, because there aren't ENOUGH of them?

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