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RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/2/2012 9:28:33 AM

Raiikun

Posts: 2650
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Welfare spending [is] 10 times greater than in the dark depths of the Depression. We're spending 45 billion dollars on welfare. Now do a little arithmetic

I know your point was about overhead. But let's do a little arithmetic on this claim (which I understand you're quoting).

To be fair too, the quote I was quoting was made in 1964...and it was 45 billion on welfare in 1964, not million.

(And again to be fair, though I did say when quoting it that it was almost 40 years ago I can see how that would be easy to miss.)

< Message edited by Raiikun -- 3/2/2012 9:29:38 AM >

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 41

RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/2/2012 9:29:47 AM

Hillwilliam

Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
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We cut money that feeds children while we spend $1 MILLION/soldier/year in Afghanistan.

http://www.wibw.com/internationalnews/headlines/140780153.html

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to Musicmystery)

Post #: 42

RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/2/2012 9:52:41 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

FR...
Whaaa, we want everything for everyone... I don't care we don't have the money to pay for it, fuck fiscal responsibility!

Why is "fiscal responsibility" something that always falls on the most needy?
Should not the cry for "fiscal responsibility" be applied to the call for a raise in taxes ?
Or is that be too responsible ?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to subrob1967)

Post #: 43

RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/2/2012 9:55:28 AM

Musicmystery

Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

Welfare spending [is] 10 times greater than in the dark depths of the Depression. We're spending 45 billion dollars on welfare. Now do a little arithmetic

I know your point was about overhead. But let's do a little arithmetic on this claim (which I understand you're quoting).

To be fair too, the quote I was quoting was made in 1964...and it was 45 billion on welfare in 1964, not million.

(And again to be fair, though I did say when quoting it that it was almost 40 years ago I can see how that would be easy to miss.)

OK, in fairness...

Let's assume $4.5 billion then. In 1964 dollars, that's $10 billion (a little over, actually). U.S. population was 192 million, a 151% increase.

1935--that's $35.43 per citizen.
1964--that's $234.38 per citizen.

But since the Great Society legislation was passed in 1965, I'd like to know where Reagan got those numbers.

Interesting that payments declined since the Carter administration except when Reagan was in office.

Reagan did raise the poverty rate, though, through widening the gap between rich and poor.
[image]
http://www.economicsjunkie.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/poverty-rate-historical1.png[/image]

Since that was his intent, we can only surmise that we're fantastically better off today, and loving it.

Wait...

Census finds record gap between rich and poor:
Income ratio of 14.5-to-1 nearly doubles 1968's low of 7.69

There we go. Reaganomics. Just that simple. Increase the number of poor people and you'll reduce spending!

Now why didn't anyone think of that before?

http://www.salon.com/2010/09/28/us_census_recession_s_impact_1/

< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/2/2012 9:58:17 AM >

(in reply to Raiikun)

Post #: 44

RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/2/2012 10:14:00 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
It was a nice little lie then, and still is. Welfare pays for more than just those 9 million poor families. Maybe you folks who want to demonize the program so much should take a closer look into what you are demonizing. You may be surprised.

Which part is the lie? That 45 billion was spent on welfare, or that if it was evenly distributed among the 9.3 million families it would equal 4600 per person?

The "equal" distribution.

In FDR’s State of the Union address, he included that he planned on creating old-age insurance program, federal unemployment and benefits for dependent people and poor single mothers with children. Welfare finally became a federal responsibility under the Social Security Act on August 18, 1935. This act made is so that states had to contribute one-third that the federal government gave to needy, dependent children, as well as old people, crippled children and the needy blind. States had the power to right the programs’ eligibility and benefit level. This did not create equality and at first did not help all the people that truly needed it.

This isnt the program of Reagan's time... which isnt the program of our time.

Now, to explain what I mean by Welfare pays for more than just those 9 million poor families.

The Department of Public Welfare works with facilities across the state who help us serve Pennsylvanians of all ages who require day-to-day care and support. To ensure the health and safety of residents and clients that these facilities serve, the department is responsible for licensing and inspecting each organization. Typically each facility is inspected once a year, but if the department receives a complaint about a facility, department inspectors will investigate beyond the annual requirement.

Inspections are conducted using health and safety regulations that are designed to fit the type of client that each facility serves. Facility regulations can be found on the PA Bulletin website. Family members and concerned citizens are encouraged to explore licensing history of an organization prior to choosing that facility for a loved one.

Use the links below to review licensing information for the organization(s) that interests you.

and....

Final Performance Audit Reports
To ensure that organizations funded by the Department of Public Welfare are performing the activities and functions that they claim, the department plans and conducts performance audits on these organizations. Access recent audit reports below.

and....

Child Fatality/Near Fatality Reports
A death or near death of a child under suspicious circumstances often effects the wider community with everyone left wondering what could have been done differently to prevent the untimely death of a child. By law, the department is required to investigate circumstances surrounding cases where suspected child abuse may have occurred. To help the community better understand what lead to the death, and to help initiate a discussion on how Pennsylvanians as a whole can prevent future deaths from occurring, the department posts the findings of our investigations below.

Unless the reports compromise a criminal proceeding all reports are posted. Some information is redacted from the reports as it is protected by privacy laws, most notably medical information protected by the federal HIPAA law.

and more...

http://www.dpw.state.pa.us/wheredotaxdollarsgo/index.htm

This is just PA. and there is more that comprises the Welfare office here. The point being, the money the welfare system spends is not just spent on those poor families.

I adored Reagan and his ability to spin truths.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Raiikun)

Post #: 45

RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/2/2012 10:47:04 AM

DesideriScuri

Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
FR how is ANY charity going to cover ANYthing for 89,000 people, in ONE state.
the GENERAL welfare is for ALL citizens isnt it, not just those who are middle class?
Allowing the working/lower classes to starve isnt covering or serving the general welfare of ALL citizens

And here we completely agree. You are correct. It isn't service or covering the general welfare of ALL citizens.

But, here's one itsy bitsy problem. The US Constitution uses the phrase, "general Welfare of the United States." Therein lies the key. The Federal Government is looking out for the country as one unit, not every individual unit that comprises the nation. Securing our borders isn't about protecting you or me from "bad guys." It's about protecting the United States of America from "bad guys."

Did you ever notice that the Federal Government concerns itself with the national economy and not your personal economy?

Copying this from one of the "Sterilize..." posts of mine:

quote:

From: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/fed45.asp

[Bold lettering added by me]

Federalist Paper #45:

...The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former [Federal Government] will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected.

The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. The operations of the federal government will be most extensive and important in times of war and danger; those of the State governments, in times of peace and security. As the former periods will probably bear a small proportion to the latter, the State governments will here enjoy another advantage over the federal government. The more adequate, indeed, the federal powers may be rendered to the national defense, the less frequent will be those scenes of danger which might favor their ascendancy over the governments of the particular States. ...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

fuck the legalese, its basic humanity

Now you want to talk basic humanity? Have you seen the abysmal living conditions in Third World countries? Wouldn't basic humanity dictate that we take care of them because they are worse off than we are? All the starving people in Africa, dying day after day after day simply because there is no food. Where is our basic humanity? How about banning the use of DDT in Africa so the people die of malaria instead of using it to kill off the mosquitoes. What about all the flash fires out in California that could be easily prevented and/or contained by burning off the undergrowth (since that has been banned, the prevalence of flash fires has increased, and so has the damage caused by flash fires; the undergrowth acts as tinder, allowing the fires to travel rapidly and easily).

Instead, you're going to piss and moan about the Federal Government failing when a thread is about a dunderheaded PA Governor.

(in reply to Lucylastic)

Post #: 46

RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/2/2012 10:56:21 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

Great job of taking a proposition and moving it to a point of absurdity.
No one is claiming that the United States of America has ,as it's charter, the responsibility of ensuring "the general welfare" of all the worlds citizens.
What is being asserted is a responsibility to it's own citizens ,now you are free to dispute that ,and I'm sure you will...but please do a better job than the one you just did.
You do your side of the argument a great disservice when you stoop to such ridiculous lengths in trying to make your point.
You are relatively new here so I have no real idea of your capabilities,but a grade school child could put forth a better defense of your pov than you just did.
Raise your game a bit,or just read for awhile,I really don't care...but please don't proffer any more of that bullshit...no one here is going to buy that garbage.

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

Post #: 47

RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/2/2012 11:47:13 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Did you ever notice that the Federal Government concerns itself with the national economy and not your personal economy?

I diagree. Wasnt it just recently that a credit debt collector was fined heavily for harassment practices?

http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/debt-buyer-collector-fined-millions-ftc/nHKzn/

http://www.federalreserve.gov/boarddocs/supmanual/cch/fair_lend_over.pdf

And we have all seen the fall out from Countrywide.

FDIC rings a bell.

The Federal government is involved heavily in protecting the public at large from dishonest tactics.

quote:

Now you want to talk basic humanity? Have you seen the abysmal living conditions in Third World countries? Wouldn't basic humanity dictate that we take care of them because they are worse off than we are?

Once we take care of our own, we should involve ourselves in the rest.

quote:

All the starving people in Africa, dying day after day after day simply because there is no food. Where is our basic humanity?

Something the US and its citizens give to heavily.

quote:

What about all the flash fires out in California that could be easily prevented and/or contained by burning off the undergrowth (since that has been banned, the prevalence of flash fires has increased, and so has the damage caused by flash fires; the undergrowth acts as tinder, allowing the fires to travel rapidly and easily).

Date: August 31, 2010
Contact: Brian Kenner, 605-433-5260
BADLANDS NATIONAL PARK, Interior, S.D. — Fire crews from Badlands National Park and the Northern Great Plains Fire Office are preparing for a planned 2,213-acre burn that is expected to take place sometime between September 7 and mid-October. Fire managers will select a day when conditions are favorable for safe burning and sufficient staff is available. The burn location is along the south side of the Badlands Loop Road (Highway 240) near headquarters at Cedar Pass and north of the town of Interior (see map). The goal of the burn is to restore the natural process of fire to the prairie ecosystem and to reduce the build-up of dead and dried fuels.

I dont see that ending.

The Alameda County Fire Department (ACFD) will be conducting a controlled vegetation management and training burn at the Alameda County Sheriffs Regional Training Center in Dublin, CA on Monday, June 13th and Tuesday, June 14th. The Alameda County Sheriffs Regional Training Center is located at 1289 Madigan Road. The controlled burn will be conducted between 8AM and 3PM, and will be burned in small, low fire intensity sections in the area between the County Jail and Barner Avenue. In total, the training burn will be approximately 100 acres.

http://www.arounddublinblog.com/2011/06/dublin-ca-planned-vegetation-burn-on-june-13th-and-14th/

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

Post #: 48

RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/2/2012 11:56:55 AM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

Tazzy you are a far better person than I.
Why you would take the trouble to refute that ridiculous proposition is beyond me.....truly you amaze me

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 49

RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/2/2012 11:58:16 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

Because it was that or a gold letter... and I promised to behave.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 50

RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/2/2012 12:01:48 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

lol simply pointing out that he took Lucy's post to ridiculous and silly points would not,should not,garner one a gold bordered letter.
But I will check my profile all the same...lol

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 51

RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/2/2012 12:19:25 PM

Raiikun

Posts: 2650
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The "equal" distribution.

I still don't see what the "lie" is. He didn't claim there was equal distribution. He just gave a hypothetical "if" to describe what he felt was a vast inefficiency in our spending.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 52

RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/2/2012 12:32:04 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

Shall we look for the same inefficiencies in the Defense budget,subsidies to big Oil,Corp. and Agriculture ?
Methinks we would find a chunk of change there.
Than we could look at some "temporary" tax cuts...and wonder when "temporary" became somehow permanent ?
Another healthy chunk of change,now we are on our way to closing that pesky budget deficit

Of course since all of that sort of violates "conservative" orthodoxy ...we can not do those things,even when they are propsed in conjunction with slashing the so called entitlement programs.
Why is that ?

< Message edited by slvemike4u -- 3/2/2012 12:35:46 PM >

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to Raiikun)

Post #: 53

RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/2/2012 12:34:17 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

we'd be able to give each family 4,600 dollars a year. And this added to their present income should eliminate poverty.

And thats all people heard.... Welfare families are making 4600 a year plus their income... the birth of the welfare queen.

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-welfarequeen.htm

Talking point at its finest. No one heard the rest, as it was intended. Speech writing is an art form.. and worth what they get paid.

quote:

to describe what he felt was a vast inefficiency in our spending.

The inefficiency in our spending is not on the people, but the bureaucracy.

Reagan went after the people. There is your lie.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 3/2/2012 12:36:48 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Raiikun)

Post #: 54

RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/2/2012 12:36:27 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

More than 4600 a year ?

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 55

RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/2/2012 12:37:36 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

Thats what he claimed they should have been making then, Mike.... we are speaking of Reagan.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 56

RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/2/2012 12:39:28 PM

slvemike4u

Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

Oh I knew that Tazzy,I was just being my usual irreverent asshole.....please do carry on

_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 57

RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/2/2012 12:42:56 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

lol... try this one on for size... Per Reagan...

quote:

Direct aid to the poor, however, is only running only about 600 dollars per family

Nor are people getting rich off welfare. The two largest welfare programs are Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) and food stamps. In 1992, the average yearly AFDC family payment was $4,572, and food stamps for a family of three averaged $2,469, for a total of $7,041. (2) In that year, the poverty level for a mother with two children was $11,186. (3) Thus, these two programs paid only 63 percent of the poverty level, and 74 percent of a minimum wage job. There are other welfare programs, of course, but they either pay a minuscule fraction of these two programs, or, if larger, are collected by only a small percentage of welfare recipients. The typical welfare recipient remains among the poorest members of society.

I have no clue where he got his figures from... again... another lie of Reagan's before someone accuses me of calling a poster a liar.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 3/2/2012 12:43:36 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to slvemike4u)

Post #: 58

RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/2/2012 12:51:20 PM

Raiikun

Posts: 2650
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

we'd be able to give each family 4,600 dollars a year. And this added to their present income should eliminate poverty.

And thats all people heard.... Welfare families are making 4600 a year plus their income... the birth of the welfare queen.

Except that's not even remotely what he said.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Thats what he claimed they should have been making then, Mike.... we are speaking of Reagan.

And again, that's not at all what he claimed.

quote:

The inefficiency in our spending is not on the people, but the bureaucracy.

Reagan went after the people. There is your lie.

No, he was going after the bureaucracy.

His point there was "Look how much we're spending on welfare, without managing to actually fix anything."

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 59

RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/2/2012 12:53:17 PM

Raiikun

Posts: 2650
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I have no clue where he got his figures from... again... another lie of Reagan's before someone accuses me of calling a poster a liar.

You realize, as I said above, the speech I quoted was from 1964?

You're giving figures from 1992.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 60

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