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RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/3/2012 8:32:11 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Sadly, people like DS still haven't realised that one of the major reasons for the introduction of Govt funded welfare programs in the first place was the abject failure of charities to deal with these enormous issues.


Bullshit.

quote:


Everywhere. Across the planet. I can't think of a single Western country where issues of poverty and social disadvantage have been adequately dealt with using charities alone. Perhaps DS can point out an example of one such country, where the ideas he is advocating actually worked for once .............? No, I didn't think so. No such country exists. No such country has ever existed. No such country will ever exist.


So, we are to follow the lead of all other Western countries? And here, I thought we were the leaders of the Western world.

quote:


Government funded welfare is far from a perfect solution. But that is absolutely NOT a reason to abandon it completely, and replace it with a model that has been a failure everywhere it has been tried. 'Let's abandon a partial solution and go back to the raw problem, and then wash our hands of all responsibility' is DS's proposal .


Again, another abysmal failure on interpretation. Well, it's a failure if you wanted your interpretation to be true, but an utter success if you want to spout out more rhetoric.

quote:


The point of DS's argument is not to solve issues like poverty and social disadvantage. It's not even to appear rational. The entire point is to advance some nice sounding platitudes designed solely to camouflage the real motive - reducing his tax burden by a few dollars a week. As for the poor and the disadvantaged generally, and in this particular instance, children and those physically incapacitated, they can just go and fuck themselves - it's not society's problem.
It's hard to find words to capture precisely how sickening and cynically repulsive I find such attitudes.


More rhetoric. Ah, how soothing. I have no problem if we disagree. I do have a problem when people put words into my mouth, or assign incorrect meanings to my words.

In my very first response in this thread, I stated that I was not in favor of shutting down this program. It's a "State" program, not a Federal one. The Federal Government does not have the authority. The State governments (and down the line to the local Governments) were tasked with the "internal" issues of the Country. And, yes, I do believe charities will ultimately pick up the slack, given the chance.

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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/3/2012 8:35:33 AM   
Lucylastic


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hardly a leader on human rights issues, what a joke
LMAO
Also it would be fun if you actually did what you expect from others.
Im not holding my breath

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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/3/2012 8:41:18 AM   
slvemike4u


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This one is going to be fun,eh Lucy ?
Good for ours and hours of laughs along with a few dozen easily refuted posts a week.
God,I just love CollarMe......lol

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/3/2012 8:54:41 AM   
Lucylastic


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Funny ...peculiar?, yep, funny ...humour? nah not in the slightest.
The arguments/excuses are so poor as to be insulting. The assumptions are beyond a joke, and the rhetoric has been debunked so many times, but its all they have to go on. Time is the only cure



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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/3/2012 9:06:06 AM   
SoftBonds


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

The Iraq War cost us less than $802B. Total. Afghanistan has cost us less than $507B. We are barely over $1.308T in war costs since 2011

Try again.
"Altogether, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan could cost the U.S. between $4 trillion and $6 trillion, more than half of which would be due to the fighting in Iraq...the U.S. has already spent $2 trillion on the wars after including debt interest and the higher cost of veterans’ disabilities."
Wall St. Journal 12/15/11


You might want to read the whole article. There is a little line in there that says, "“The direct costs for the war were about $800 billion, but the indirect costs, the costs you can’t easily see, that payoff will outlast you and me,” said Lawrence Korb, a senior fellow at American Progress, a Washington, D.C. think tank, and a former assistant secretary of defense under Ronald Reagan."

Since those "indirect costs" have yet to be paid, and are estimates, so, how can they have cost us more than what we've paid out over the last 10 years?


DS, have you ever been driving somewhere and seen a homeless Vietnam vet on the side of the road, with a sign asking for handouts?
I actually at one point kept a loaf of bread and peanut butter in the car, figuring it was good nutrition and would let a guy eat for a few days, while being cheap to replace each time I gave it out, and something that kept. Anyway...
My point is, that they are not homeless and unemployed because of prejudice against vets, or because they lack skills or work ethic. They are in that position because of mental health issues, generally Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. These are men who went to war, saw horrible things, and were broken as human beings.
Estimates are that each deployment to Iraq or Afghanistan carries about a 30% chance of developing PTSD. Think about how many of our young men and women we sent into war, then think about how many went 2, 3, 4, or even more times into the grinder.
How do we know the cost? Well, unless someone comes up with a cure for PTSD, we just look at our Vietnam vets and assume the same costs per soldier...


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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/3/2012 9:07:02 AM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
quote:

The Iraq War cost us less than $802B. Total. Afghanistan has cost us less than $507B. We are barely over $1.308T in war costs since 2011

Try again.
"Altogether, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan could cost the U.S. between $4 trillion and $6 trillion, more than half of which would be due to the fighting in Iraq...the U.S. has already spent $2 trillion on the wars after including debt interest and the higher cost of veterans’ disabilities."
Wall St. Journal 12/15/11


You might want to read the whole article. There is a little line in there that says, "“The direct costs for the war were about $800 billion, but the indirect costs, the costs you can’t easily see, that payoff will outlast you and me,” said Lawrence Korb, a senior fellow at American Progress, a Washington, D.C. think tank, and a former assistant secretary of defense under Ronald Reagan."

Since those "indirect costs" have yet to be paid, and are estimates, so, how can they have cost us more than what we've paid out over the last 10 years?

I did read it. So should you. The costs are more than the bill for paying GIs to walk on Iraqi soil. As the article notes.

You and Rumsfeld. War on the cheap. It's an illusion. The world is not so simple--actions have consequences.

$1.2 trillion of those "indirect costs" have already been paid. It's in the article.

And future costs aren't such a mystery. We have expenditures we know we'll be continuing. To pretend they don't exist as a cost of the wars is make-believe.


< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/3/2012 9:09:53 AM >

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RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/3/2012 12:02:24 PM   
Raiikun


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

And future costs aren't such a mystery. We have expenditures we know we'll be continuing. To pretend they don't exist as a cost of the wars is make-believe.



Which is exactly my view as to why we should count what we borrow from Social Security as debt instead of counting it toward a make-believe surplus. =)

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/3/2012 12:28:29 PM   
tazzygirl


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Senators Ernest Hollings (D-South Carolina), Warren Rudman (R-New Hampshire) and Phil Gramm (R-Texas) were the chief sponsors.

I am sure you can figure out what bill I am referring too that took SS off budget.

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/taxes-budget/off-budget.cfm

Might help you understand why.

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RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/3/2012 12:33:46 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Sadly, people like DS still haven't realised that one of the major reasons for the introduction of Govt funded welfare programs in the first place was the abject failure of charities to deal with these enormous issues.


Bullshit.

So where in America are charitable donations from the 1% providing those below the poverty line with a safety net, then?
You know, if welfare programmes are redundant because the charitable nature of people at the top of the pile are going to keep society ticking over nicely without any of that, I think you should some evidence for that. because if you can't, it sounds a lot more like you're the one talking bullshit, rather than tweak.

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/3/2012 5:19:24 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Sadly, people like DS still haven't realised that one of the major reasons for the introduction of Govt funded welfare programs in the first place was the abject failure of charities to deal with these enormous issues.

Bullshit.

So where in America are charitable donations from the 1% providing those below the poverty line with a safety net, then?
You know, if welfare programmes are redundant because the charitable nature of people at the top of the pile are going to keep society ticking over nicely without any of that, I think you should some evidence for that. because if you can't, it sounds a lot more like you're the one talking bullshit, rather than tweak.


Charitable contributions are set to go over 2007 levels for the first time since the recession. Who the fuck do you think is doing the donating?

Oh, and how about we work with the understanding that I'm against Federal assistance programs, but not State assistance programs? And that I have already said a great many times that I am not supportive of Corbett's action?

If government is taking care of the less fortunate, do you think that might have any bearing on how much is donated to charities set up to do the same? Any bearing?

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/3/2012 5:54:06 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

hardly a leader on human rights issues, what a joke
LMAO


So, you alter the script to fit your goals. Nice move. My comment was in regards to being the world leader in innovation, tech advancement, and economy.

quote:


Also it would be fun if you actually did what you expect from others.
Im not holding my breath


And, what is that?

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/3/2012 10:04:55 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

DesideriScuri
quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Sadly, people like DS still haven't realised that one of the major reasons for the introduction of Govt funded welfare programs in the first place was the abject failure of charities to deal with these enormous issues.



Bullshit.


So you can nominate one Western country where private charities have dealt with issues of poverty and social marginalisation successfully? Just one country .....?

Or any evidence at all to suggest that private charities succeed at this task? Evidence of success please, not more ideologically-driven nonsense.

Unless you are able to meet these minimum standards, and them some, it will be crystal clear to everyone just who is talking bullshit here.

The only thing backing up your claim is some specious ideological posturing. There's not a shred of data, nor a single case where your claims can be verified or supported. My claims are supported by the history of social policy in every Western country. Above, Hippiekinkster has advanced evidence to support my position going back 2,000 years.

So unless you can produce some compelling evidence to the contrary, the only possible conclusion based on evidence and data, based on reality and not ideology is that your 'bullshit' claim accurately describes your own position.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/3/2012 10:16:40 PM >


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RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/3/2012 10:22:10 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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"I thought we were the leaders of the Western world."

Well, you thought wrong, didn't you?



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RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/3/2012 10:34:59 PM   
erieangel


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quote:

Charitable contributions are set to go over 2007 levels for the first time since the recession. Who the fuck do you think is doing the donating?



The poor and middle classes give a disproportionate percentage of their incomes to the poor compared to the super wealthy who tend to make charitable contributions to the arts or their alma maters (to build new science labs, etc.). Various studies have born this out. The poor, people living on less than $20,000 a year for a family of 4 will typically give about 2.4% of their income to charity while those making more than $250,000 typically give only about 2.1%. In actual dollar amounts, yes the rich are giving far more, but where is it going--usually not the organizations that help this nation's poorest people.



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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/3/2012 11:07:18 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
So where in America are charitable donations from the 1% providing those below the poverty line with a safety net, then?
You know, if welfare programmes are redundant because the charitable nature of people at the top of the pile are going to keep society ticking over nicely without any of that, I think you should some evidence for that. because if you can't, it sounds a lot more like you're the one talking bullshit, rather than tweak.


Charitable contributions are set to go over 2007 levels for the first time since the recession. Who the fuck do you think is doing the donating?

Oh, and how about we work with the understanding that I'm against Federal assistance programs, but not State assistance programs? And that I have already said a great many times that I am not supportive of Corbett's action?

If government is taking care of the less fortunate, do you think that might have any bearing on how much is donated to charities set up to do the same? Any bearing?
Moonie asked "So where in America are charitable donations from the 1% providing those below the poverty line with a safety net, then?"

You replied, "Charitable contributions are set to go over 2007 levels for the first time since the recession." This is an example of the Ignoratio Elenchi Fallacy, otherwise known as a "Red Herring" (although, strictly speaking, there isn't a syllogism here.).

You then conclude with "Who the fuck do you think is doing the donating?" The fact is, you have no idea who is donating charitable contributions. It's tempting to say that you have introduced a Strawman argument; again, technically, you haven't (again, there is no syllogism). If there were, I suppose I could argue that you were "Affirming the Antecedent".

You state that you are against federal assistance programs, but support state programs. The problem with this position is that the states are, by and large, nearly bankrupt... the states do not have the resources to provide safety nets. That would be why every state that I'm aware of is cutting the safety nets. Since charity is insufficient, and the states are cutting social security and welfare programs, how are the safety nets to be funded? Your side refuses to raise taxes for any reason, and China certainly isn't going to lend the states money. The 1% for damn sure are not going to voluntarily fund state programs. So where is the money going to come from if not the Federal Government?

You Libertarians haven't thought any of this shit through at all. You all just mouth the same old nonsensical platidudinal propaganda.




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RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/3/2012 11:12:04 PM   
itsSIRtou


Posts: 836
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Sadly, people like DS still haven't realised that one of the major reasons for the introduction of Govt funded welfare programs in the first place was the abject failure of charities to deal with these enormous issues.

Bullshit.

So where in America are charitable donations from the 1% providing those below the poverty line with a safety net, then?
You know, if welfare programmes are redundant because the charitable nature of people at the top of the pile are going to keep society ticking over nicely without any of that, I think you should some evidence for that. because if you can't, it sounds a lot more like you're the one talking bullshit, rather than tweak.


Charitable contributions are set to go over 2007 levels for the first time since the recession. Who the fuck do you think is doing the donating?

Oh, and how about we work with the understanding that I'm against Federal assistance programs, but not State assistance programs? And that I have already said a great many times that I am not supportive of Corbett's action?

If government is taking care of the less fortunate, do you think that might have any bearing on how much is donated to charities set up to do the same? Any bearing?




.. I dare u sir to find any state in the union where the food shelfs are not having a problem keeping up with the demand for food from not only the homeless, working homeless, near homeless, lower middle class BUT also now formerly middle class people who are struggling to feed themselves. THE reason that theres a problem at this time in the first place is that the wealthy didnt keep their promise to create jos in the USA after being given TEN YEARS of bush Tax cuts that they took it and said thanks and stuck the money in their pockets like chipmunks.

So now we're supposed to depend on the very people who (IMO) are the job problem... to donate money to the very people they dont want to hire or allow to have paid health care? Give me a reason they will give money like what would be needed to replace welfare when they wouldnt even do what they conned us into the tax cuts for?? What movitvation do they have?? "Any bearing?"

The various charites will tell u its not the donations from the weathly that changed, its the donatins from the middle class thats shrunk because now many who gave are now having to come there as clients.. the wealthy have every chance available right NOW to give more because if u bother to ask any of the charites they'll tell u that they are no longer just seasonally asking for contributions, its now a year round cry for help. u shouldnt be puffing out ur chest about the 2007 donation levels since the charities were begging for help then like now.


With all due respect, DesideriScuri... who the fuck is LEFT to donate?





< Message edited by itsSIRtou -- 3/3/2012 11:47:15 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 96
RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/3/2012 11:28:16 PM   
FrostedFlake


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quote:

subrob 1967... quite some time ago.

It is NOT the government's job to take care of people, which is something a progressive never understands. There are charities, and family assistance groups that are privately funded do help out those unfortunate people. The government simply cannot raise enough funds to deal with every social ill that befalls a citizen... Tough shit, but that's the way it is.


Hmmm.... let me check something.

quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preamble_to_the_United_States_Constitution

The Preamble to the United States Constitution is a brief introductory statement of the Constitution's fundamental purposes and guiding principles. It states in general terms, and courts have referred to it as reliable evidence of, the Founding Fathers' intentions regarding the Constitution's meaning and what they hoped the Constitution would achieve.

quote:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[note 1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.


An example of the way courts utilize the Preamble is Ellis v. City of Grand Rapids. Substantively, the case was about eminent domain. The City of Grand Rapids wanted to use eminent domain to force landowners to sell property in the city identified as "blighted", and convey the property to owners that would develop it in ostensibly beneficial ways: in this case, to St. Mary's Hospital, a Catholic organization. This area of substantive constitutional law is governed by the Fifth Amendment, which is understood to require that property acquired via eminent domain must be put to a "public use". In deciding whether the proposed project constituted a "public use", the court pointed to the Preamble's reference to "promot[ing] the general Welfare" as evidence that "[t]he health of the people was in the minds of our forefathers". "[T]he concerted effort for renewal and expansion of hospital and medical care centers, as a part of our nation's system of hospitals, is as a public service and use within the highest meaning of such terms. Surely this is in accord with an objective of the United States Constitution: '* * * promote the general Welfare.'"


Having gone that far to demonstrate I am making no assumptions regarding the purpose underlying the foundation of this nation, I must ask plainly ; How is it that we are unable to afford to care for ourselves, and for our children, while at the same time we can afford to spend $4,000,000,000,000 on a perpetual war against no-one?

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RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/4/2012 7:56:43 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

And, charitable contributions are set to eclipse 2007 levels this year, btw. I wonder who is doing all that donating?


The Charitable-Giving Divide

August 20, 2010

...The problem is that the exceptional philanthropy of the superwealthy few doesn’t apply to the many more people defined as rich in the current debate over the Bush tax cuts — individuals earning over $200,000 and couples with revenues over $250,000. For decades, surveys have shown that upper-income Americans don’t give away as much of their money as they might and are particularly undistinguished as givers when compared with the poor, who are strikingly generous. A number of other studies have shown that lower-income Americans give proportionally more of their incomes to charity than do upper-income Americans. In 2001, Independent Sector, a nonprofit organization focused on charitable giving, found that households earning less than $25,000 a year gave away an average of 4.2 percent of their incomes; those with earnings of more than $75,000 gave away 2.7 percent.

...But in the larger context of “the psychological culture of wealth versus poverty,” says Paul K. Piff, a Ph.D. candidate in social psychology at the University of California, Berkeley, the paradox makes sense. Piff has made a specialty of studying those cultures in his lab at the Institute of Personality and Social Research, most recently in a series of experiments that tested “lower class” and “upper class” subjects (with earnings ranging from around $15,000 to more than $150,000 a year) to see what kind of psychological factors motivated the well-known differences in their giving behaviors. His study, written with Michael W. Kraus and published online last month by The Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, found that lower-income people were more generous, charitable, trusting and helpful to others than were those with more wealth. They were more attuned to the needs of others and more committed generally to the values of egalitarianism.

“Upper class” people, on the other hand, clung to values that “prioritized their own need.” And, he told me this week, “wealth seems to buffer people from attending to the needs of others.” Empathy and compassion appeared to be the key ingredients in the greater generosity of those with lower incomes. And these two traits proved to be in increasingly short supply as people moved up the income spectrum.

This compassion deficit — the inability to empathetically relate to others’ needs — is perhaps not so surprising in a society that for decades has seen the experiential gap between the well-off and the poor (and even the middle class) significantly widen. The economist Frank Levy diagnosed such a split in his book “The New Dollars and Dreams: American Incomes and Economic Change,” published in the midst of the late-1990s tech boom. “The welfare state,” Levy wrote, “rests on enlightened self-interest in which people can look at beneficiaries and reasonably say, ‘There but for the grace of God. . . .’ As income differences widen, this statement rings less true.” A lack of identification with those in need may explain in part why a 2007 report from the Center on Philanthropy at Indiana University found that only a small percentage of charitable giving by the wealthy was actually going to the needs of the poor; instead it was mostly directed to other causes — cultural institutions, for example, or their alma maters — which often came with the not-inconsequential payoff of enhancing the donor’s status among his or her peers.

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Profile   Post #: 98
RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/4/2012 12:41:51 PM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri


quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

hardly a leader on human rights issues, what a joke
LMAO


So, you alter the script to fit your goals. Nice move. My comment was in regards to being the world leader in innovation, tech advancement, and economy.

quote:


Also it would be fun if you actually did what you expect from others.
Im not holding my breath


And, what is that?

Then YOU should have been more definitive..I was DEFINING what I MEANT! I call BS on your "excuse" because we were discussing a social/human right issue, Stick with the topic and stop trying to obfuscate.
BTW your economy caused by n large the world bamking crisis. so while you may be a "leader" in economy...that is a fucked up way to take credit for the crisis around the globe.
Im not sure it should be a pride!


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RE: PA Gov. Corbett to eliminate the general assistance... - 3/5/2012 2:48:15 AM   
DesideriScuri


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Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
So where in America are charitable donations from the 1% providing those below the poverty line with a safety net, then?
You know, if welfare programmes are redundant because the charitable nature of people at the top of the pile are going to keep society ticking over nicely without any of that, I think you should some evidence for that. because if you can't, it sounds a lot more like you're the one talking bullshit, rather than tweak.

Charitable contributions are set to go over 2007 levels for the first time since the recession. Who the fuck do you think is doing the donating?
Oh, and how about we work with the understanding that I'm against Federal assistance programs, but not State assistance programs? And that I have already said a great many times that I am not supportive of Corbett's action?
If government is taking care of the less fortunate, do you think that might have any bearing on how much is donated to charities set up to do the same? Any bearing?
Moonie asked "So where in America are charitable donations from the 1% providing those below the poverty line with a safety net, then?"
You replied, "Charitable contributions are set to go over 2007 levels for the first time since the recession." This is an example of the Ignoratio Elenchi Fallacy, otherwise known as a "Red Herring" (although, strictly speaking, there isn't a syllogism here.).
You then conclude with "Who the fuck do you think is doing the donating?" The fact is, you have no idea who is donating charitable contributions. It's tempting to say that you have introduced a Strawman argument; again, technically, you haven't (again, there is no syllogism). If there were, I suppose I could argue that you were "Affirming the Antecedent".
You state that you are against federal assistance programs, but support state programs. The problem with this position is that the states are, by and large, nearly bankrupt... the states do not have the resources to provide safety nets. That would be why every state that I'm aware of is cutting the safety nets. Since charity is insufficient, and the states are cutting social security and welfare programs, how are the safety nets to be funded? Your side refuses to raise taxes for any reason, and China certainly isn't going to lend the states money. The 1% for damn sure are not going to voluntarily fund state programs. So where is the money going to come from if not the Federal Government?
quote:



And, here is where you aren't connecting the dots. The States will end up raising taxes to cover those programs. While it's not a huge leap to see that means more of a shift from Federal to State coffers than a decrease in total overall tax liability. I would rather pay my taxes to my State and Local Governments to fund programs that I fully believe are Constitutionally not Federal issues.

quote:

You Libertarians haven't thought any of this shit through at all. You all just mouth the same old nonsensical platidudinal propaganda.


Yep, no Libertarian has thought any of this through. That's quite evident considering our current state of affairs. Oh, wait, Libertarians aren't in charge and haven't been in charge for many, many moons.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)
Profile   Post #: 100
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