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RE: restrictions on addictions - 3/7/2012 3:12:45 PM

JeffBC

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For Carol and I, this works out but I suspect the only reason it works out is that there are no "slips" between us. There is "absolute, 100% obedience" or "not mine". In other words, I placed a substantial enough penalty on the table that her addiction was not able to overcome it. That's how it is with all the commands I give her.

MrsT301 said:
I don't think this would fly with me. If my Husband told me to quit smoking I don't think I would be able to do it. Or want to for that matter.

OK, I get that. But let's suppose that your husband said, "If you smoke one more cigarette... one puff... at all.... I will absolutely divorce you immediately." and made you believe it? Then would that cigarette be that attractive? Actually, what I told Carol was much, much worse than that. What I told her was, "Nope, I'll still love you if you disobey... love you, adore you, and think that you're the best freakin partner in the whole world. But if you disobey I won't ever again be able to see you as my property and that feeds me a great deal."

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that people seem to assume that these commands come with no serious "or else" attached. In my world they do and it's way more serious than "I'll spank you".

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Post #: 41

RE: restrictions on addictions - 3/7/2012 3:33:59 PM

kalikshama

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quote:

Habits aren't destiny, but addictions aren't habits. It's important to note the distinction between them.

Chantix has successfully weaned M off his physical addiction to nicotine; it's breaking the habit that he struggles with.

My ex roommate detoxes successfully and quits drinking for years at a time, but hasn't changed her pattern of picking back up when she's stressed.

The author talks about how AA replaces one set of habits/rituals with others.

(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 42

RE: restrictions on addictions - 3/7/2012 5:04:49 PM

fucktoyprincess

Posts: 2337
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

I heard the author of The Power of Habit: Why We Do What We Do in Life and Business interviewed on NPR yesterday and thought of this thread.
ing how habits work.

Thanks for posting this link on this thread.

I find the notion of positive habits quite fascinating.

I know a few people personally who have gone through 12 steps. Positive habits have been very critical for helping maintain their sobriety.

And I think, even for those who do not face addiction issues, the idea of positive habits is actually quite powerful.

Food for thought (at least for me.)

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Post #: 43

RE: restrictions on addictions - 3/7/2012 7:20:41 PM

imdmb

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i have a big problem with 12 step, because they make you feel and force you to believe that you CAN NEVER do it alone, well thats counterprofuckingductive! if you break down somebody whos already broken then no, they WONT be able to do ANYTHING on their own EVER!

i had a friend who went to 12 step to stop drinking, he came out with a heroin addiction, hes dead now, thank you for breaking down somebody even farther and killing them

no, its just not right. honestly the only place this could possibly work IS in bdsm, you replace the word 'god' with the word 'master' and that step might actualy do something, otherwise, its telling you that you ARE NOT STRONG ENOUGH AND NEED OUTSIDE HELP

yeah, that fucking works, if you want to kill somebody already depressed, that works perfectly

dont make people who are already depressed worse, they will just get worse, then youre left with a body and nothing else

only time that works is when youre making somebody already depressed so bad off that they dont like themselves enough to kill themselves, but even then thats where my friend was and he still ended up dead because the heroin ate through him so fast (coroner said only one injection point, they think he only actualy did it once, but i dont honestly know)

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Post #: 44

RE: restrictions on addictions - 3/7/2012 7:59:10 PM

hausboy

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I have a few thoughts on this....

Mountain Dew is one of the most addictive soft drinks out there--primarily due to caffeine, but the sugar as well. In rural West Virginia, they actually have addiction counselors who outreach to parents and teens--mountain dew addiction is extremely common because it is cheap and easy to get, and school kids get a "buzz" from it. Some of the biggest public health threats it has caused related to dental issues and cavities, but there were incidences of theft of mountain dew from retail stores.

Sugar addiction is not as common as other addictions but it certainly is real--my mother suffers from it, and I remember as a kid, hearing her sneak downstairs in the middle of the night to stand in a dark closet, eating a box of cookies. Mom wasn't a compulsive eater like those who have compulsive eating disorders--but she craved sugar, and if she had 1 cookie...she couldn't stop. (she was always very thin and fit) Her sugar addiction began to affect her eyesight and caused severe headaches, and she had to quit, which she did on her own. Our family has the alcoholic gene--she never touched a drop of alcohol but the disease found a way to manifest itself. to the body, it's all sugars.

I'm a recovering alcoholic & addict--20 years clean and sober this summer--and I turned to caffeine and sugar to help with the alcohol cravings when I quit. I have to be very careful with my consumption now of both--I have quit caffeine and sugar before--the headaches are horrid.

The 12-step programs made my life possible, and I've seen thousands of others helped. They don't work for everyone, and they aren't the only way to get help for an addiction. I'm sorry "imdmb" about your friend, but it isn't the 12 step program to blame Addictions are powerful, and it's not unusual to give up an addiction only to fill the void with another. Heroin and depression killed your friend--not the 12 step program. I've lost a few friends to heroin and to alcohol--it wasn't a 12 step program that killed them--they simply were not ready and willing to accept help.

Most addicts and alcoholics have issues with control--12-step programs are based on the premise that a person suffering from alcoholism cannot exercise will-power the way a non-alcoholic can. They cannot control their addiction, and it's not helplessness--it's powerlessness. That powerless-ness is over the addiction itself, not over their own life, and much of working the steps is about being accountable for one's actions, deeds and emotions. It was thru the 12-steps that I realized that I was not a bad person, I had a disease that I could not control. It was through the 12-steps that I held myself accountable for my actions, and took control of my own life. The tremendous support I received from my friends in my AA group during my early sobriety was absolutely incredible--I credit many of them for helping me get clean and sober and stay that way.

No one is forced to be in a 12-step program (well, I've heard of court ordered 30 days) they are free. you don't have to go. no one forces you to stay. the only requirement for membership in AA and NA is a DESIRE to stop using/drinking. if it doesn't work for you or you don't like what it is about, don't go. find another way that works for you.

(in reply to imdmb)

Post #: 45

RE: restrictions on addictions - 3/7/2012 8:52:01 PM

sunshinemiss

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Hausboy -
Excellent post... as always.

I've a lot of alcoholics in my world. I have always known I'm not one because I don't care if my glass is full, minus one sip, half gone, or empty. I can stand up and walk away with no problem. I can not do that with certain other things.

Best wishes,
sunshine

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Post #: 46

RE: restrictions on addictions - 3/8/2012 12:01:03 AM

imdmb

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except he never gave up the drinking either, he tried, he failed, he got the step saying that he was a worthless nothing without god and it made him feel like a worthless nothing, even though he actualy did believe in god, which made him worse, everybody in that session got worse during that step and went back to drinking because they were told they didnt have the power to stop, he just happened to drink and start heroin instead of just drink

edited because of spelling >.<

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this is all my own opinion! dont take it as anything but what i have experienced personaly! this is what has happened to me! results may vary!
im also usually half asleep when im on this forum...

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Post #: 47

RE: restrictions on addictions - 3/8/2012 12:05:54 AM

GreedyTop

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again, that has nothing to do with teh steps. he wasn't ready to stop, since, as you say, he continued drinking. depression is not helped by alcohol use. IF the program kills people, it certainly would not have the success that it does world wide. Do people fall off the wagon? yes. do people die? yes. but they make their own choices.

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Post #: 48

RE: restrictions on addictions - 3/8/2012 12:22:26 AM

imdmb

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alright, you know reading back thru what ive written, seeing it down on paper (kinda) maby it was really HOW they presented it, thinking back, they really stressed the 'you have no power because only god can get you to stop' aspect and really only focused on that during that step, damn i think i have a clinic to revisit and some choice words on how they should change their tone

thank you for helping me with this, i think youve helped close a chapter, thank you everybody, especialy GreedyTop and hausboy

off to think of things...

_____________________________

this is all my own opinion! dont take it as anything but what i have experienced personaly! this is what has happened to me! results may vary!
im also usually half asleep when im on this forum...

(in reply to GreedyTop)

Post #: 49

RE: restrictions on addictions - 3/8/2012 12:56:58 AM

GreedyTop

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glad if I was able to help in anyway. :)

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Post #: 50

RE: restrictions on addictions - 3/8/2012 2:46:01 AM

sunshinemiss

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I will say that imdmb has a point that I've heard brought up before, particularly in women's groups. 'Women don't need to make a list of their character defects, they need to make a list of their strengths' is something I've read. I actually agree and disagree. As addicts, looking at character defects, admitting them, and embracing them takes away a lot of their power. Saying, "Yes, I'm impulsive with money." is an important piece of information and can be used as a tool to set up some discipline for oneself. I remember making the decision to not spend money on anything until I ran it past a girlfriend (beyond regular day to day things - food, toiletries, rent,utilities, etc.)which helped me with having no understanding of or control over my money. It was a great lesson which then went to... "I've never been taught this - or if I was it didn't sink into my hard head - so it's time I learned and act like a grown-up." That was amazingly powerful. It allowed me to stop being a slave to my own broken / undeveloped places. By admitting it was there, I was able to take steps to augment that weak spot.

By the same token, though, I had to also make a list of my character strengths in order to not get bogged down in what the program calls "stinkin' thinkin'" which is all that "I'm crap / worthless, etc." way of seeing myself. (hmmm, sounds like a good exercise for right about now in fact....). This is one place that I would agree the 12 steps are weak. I try to remember that it was created by a couple of wealthy white men with a certain amount of privilege who had not had the experiences that other people have as part and parcel of growing up. This is why "Take what you need and leave the rest" is so bloody important. I try to use that in all aspects of my life. There are people / places / things I don't like 100% - but I find something good and embrace that and try to ignore or let go of the rest.

Anyway, back to the OP - addictions are complex and nobody who doesn't have a clue about them should try to control them. Does way more harm than good.

best,
sunshine

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Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

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Post #: 51

RE: restrictions on addictions - 3/8/2012 4:43:25 AM

ClassAct2006

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He needs to go away and read about addictions. You don't let the cocaine addict hvae one lot a week or the alcholic. You need to withdraw and then never drink again if you want to get off that unhealthy stuff. By letting you have some each week he is making it all worse. So it is an example of someone trying to control without the skills and research behind him to make it effective.

No one should drink that kind of rubbish if they cherish their body and life so in principle someone ensuring you are healthier is a loving healthy thing but he needs to do is right.

(in reply to Asherscorp1)

Post #: 52

RE: restrictions on addictions - 3/8/2012 6:31:33 AM

LunaM

Posts: 183
Joined: 3/3/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

For Carol and I, this works out but I suspect the only reason it works out is that there are no "slips" between us. There is "absolute, 100% obedience" or "not mine". In other words, I placed a substantial enough penalty on the table that her addiction was not able to overcome it. That's how it is with all the commands I give her.

MrsT301 said:
I don't think this would fly with me. If my Husband told me to quit smoking I don't think I would be able to do it. Or want to for that matter.

OK, I get that. But let's suppose that your husband said, "If you smoke one more cigarette... one puff... at all.... I will absolutely divorce you immediately." and made you believe it? Then would that cigarette be that attractive? Actually, what I told Carol was much, much worse than that. What I told her was, "Nope, I'll still love you if you disobey... love you, adore you, and think that you're the best freakin partner in the whole world. But if you disobey I won't ever again be able to see you as my property and that feeds me a great deal."

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that people seem to assume that these commands come with no serious "or else" attached. In my world they do and it's way more serious than "I'll spank you".

What I have bolded is what I kind of have an issue with.
I understand that your dynamic is different than mine but why go to such extremes with your sub? Make her want to quit. Nothing in the world is more powerful than that. Without going to extremes, make her WANT to quit.
Threatening could damage a relationship, in my personal opinion, because the trust is shaken. Now if it's a solid relaitonship the sub may just laugh the threats off because she/he knows that won't happen. But if you bring in a factor of making her want to quit it's still respecting the dynamic and her as a person.
I don't know your dynamic, I'm just speaking from my own personal opinion. I mean no personal insult.

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~And yet she had never felt more totally committed to a will, which was not her own, more totally a slave and more content to be so~

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Post #: 53

RE: restrictions on addictions - 3/8/2012 6:41:55 AM

fucktoyprincess

Posts: 2337
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quote:

ORIGINAL: imdmb

alright, you know reading back thru what ive written, seeing it down on paper (kinda) maby it was really HOW they presented it, thinking back, they really stressed the 'you have no power because only god can get you to stop' aspect and really only focused on that during that step, damn i think i have a clinic to revisit and some choice words on how they should change their tone

thank you for helping me with this, i think youve helped close a chapter, thank you everybody, especialy GreedyTop and hausboy

off to think of things...

I'm sorry to hear about your friend. I just do want to add a few things, though.

The only people I know who have successfully stayed sober for years on end, have all done it through some sort of 12 steps program.

I do know that the current thinking on alcohol/drug addiction is that any rehab centre treatment that does not provide a 12 steps type approach is probably not a treatment that will last. 12 steps is considered the best available approach, although everyone agrees that not every single person who goes through will be successful. An oft misunderstood thing about alcohol/drug addiction is that getting sober is difficult, but once you've done it you are done. Not so. It is, for people who are true addicts, a daily battle for the rest of their lives to stay sober.

12 steps is a very generic term, and not all 12 steps programs are religious/god based. So if you ever have friends who need help in the future and you feel the religious aspect of this is not working for them, please help them find one that is not - they do exist.

So I understand your objections. But let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

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Post #: 54

RE: restrictions on addictions - 3/8/2012 6:48:11 AM

sunshinemiss

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You know, Carol and Jeff have been together a longggggggggggg time. They must be doing something right!

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Yes, I am a wonton hussy... and still sweet as 3.14

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Post #: 55

RE: restrictions on addictions - 3/8/2012 7:05:41 AM

kalikshama

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Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

i have a big problem with 12 step, because they make you feel and force you to believe that you CAN NEVER do it alone, well thats counterprofuckingductive! if you break down somebody whos already broken then no, they WONT be able to do ANYTHING on their own EVER!

I agree that the powerless model would be counterproductive for me and encourage anyone for whom the 12 step model does not work to check out Rational Recovery: https://rational.org/

(in reply to imdmb)

Post #: 56

RE: restrictions on addictions - 3/8/2012 7:10:09 AM

kalikshama

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Joined: 8/8/2010
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quote:

I do know that the current thinking on alcohol/drug addiction is that any rehab centre treatment that does not provide a 12 steps type approach is probably not a treatment that will last. 12 steps is considered the best available approach, although everyone agrees that not every single person who goes through will be successful.

Then they are not looking at statistics.

If 12 steps works for [generic] you, that's great. Enjoy.

Do not click on this link: http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.html

(in reply to fucktoyprincess)

Post #: 57

RE: restrictions on addictions - 3/8/2012 7:33:47 AM

DesFIP

Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
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Some meetings are better than others.

The weekly Al-Anon meeting in my small town is dreadful. But I know that in other places they are much better. Here they are run by the same small group of women who see themselves as victims and don't want to change, and they certainly don't want anyone else coming in who wish to be empowered..

But 15 miles away in the county seat, there are several meetings to choose from, some run by very vibrant people who welcome others.

About Jeff and Carol though, personally I don't pay blackmail. And that's what his line of thinking on this has always felt like to me. That perfection is required. Can't quit smoking right this second? Out you go.

Me? I'm not perfect. I need support, not threats. And sometimes I need a lot of help to accomplish things, going over the various steps repeatedly until I get it. Being allowed to fail repeatedly until I succeed. The Thomas Edison model, where he said he hadn't failed to make a working light bulb. He had just identified a thousand ways that didn't work so he could then move on to the thousandth and one. YMMV

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Post #: 58

RE: restrictions on addictions - 3/8/2012 7:34:23 AM

fucktoyprincess

Posts: 2337
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

i have a big problem with 12 step, because they make you feel and force you to believe that you CAN NEVER do it alone, well thats counterprofuckingductive! if you break down somebody whos already broken then no, they WONT be able to do ANYTHING on their own EVER!

I agree that the powerless model would be counterproductive for me and encourage anyone for whom the 12 step model does not work to check out Rational Recovery: https://rational.org/

Certainly if other approaches are achieving greater success then people should check them out. I'm not suggesting otherwise. But there are people who've been successful with 12 steps - and again I'm using 12 steps as a broad term for a type of approach. AA is the original organization, and they have their own version of the program, but there are many others that are somewhat similar in approach, but not exactly the same.

It is my understand that all recovery programs have a fairly high rate of recidivism. No silver bullets here - people need to research and obviously find what works for them and my comments were not meant to suggest no other approach could work, but that 12 steps should not be dismissed as an approach that could be successful.

_____________________________

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Post #: 59

RE: restrictions on addictions - 3/8/2012 10:13:32 AM

MrsT301

Posts: 48
Joined: 2/28/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

For Carol and I, this works out but I suspect the only reason it works out is that there are no "slips" between us. There is "absolute, 100% obedience" or "not mine". In other words, I placed a substantial enough penalty on the table that her addiction was not able to overcome it. That's how it is with all the commands I give her.

MrsT301 said:
I don't think this would fly with me. If my Husband told me to quit smoking I don't think I would be able to do it. Or want to for that matter.

OK, I get that. But let's suppose that your husband said, "If you smoke one more cigarette... one puff... at all.... I will absolutely divorce you immediately." and made you believe it? Then would that cigarette be that attractive? Actually, what I told Carol was much, much worse than that. What I told her was, "Nope, I'll still love you if you disobey... love you, adore you, and think that you're the best freakin partner in the whole world. But if you disobey I won't ever again be able to see you as my property and that feeds me a great deal."

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that people seem to assume that these commands come with no serious "or else" attached. In my world they do and it's way more serious than "I'll spank you".

We don't have a TPE relationship. My punishments are usually just extra chores. Do something wrong, more chores. I guess my Husband could make my life a misery for refusing to quit smoking but that's as far as it would go. The house would be spotless and I'd still be a smoker. He wouldn't divorce me over it or anything, and I would just continue to take my punishments.

In my case though, if he didn't want me to smoke he could have said something about it 7 years ago. Don't want to be married to a smoker? Then don't date a smoker. If it's a dealbreaker he could have ended it after our first date.

(in reply to JeffBC)

Post #: 60

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