RE: For those still needing a reason to hate this SOB...

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Wulfchyld -> RE: For those still needing a reason to hate this SOB... (6/3/2006 8:54:31 PM)
Oh hell! I thought this thread was about me! [sm=biggrin.gif]

OhBeMyMind -> RE: For those still needing a reason to hate this SOB... (6/3/2006 9:03:01 PM)
~Fast reply~ Not convinced to hate him yet.......what else you got?

Chaingang -> RE: For those still needing a reason to hate this SOB... (6/3/2006 9:07:38 PM)
Level: Yes. Anyone that supports less than equal rights for anyone is supporting bigotry and hatred. Why do you have trouble with that? I am finding your line of questioning suspicious now. What's your point? You claim to agree to with most of us here and then play devil's advocate for some unknown reason. If you have a point it would seem to be something like this: "Can one's judgment of a person be separated from one's judgment of his deeds?" I am supposed to care if some fucking monster on the outside is instead a good soul deep down on the inside? Sheesh, that MUST be someone else's job...why should I trouble myself to try to figure out someone's inner meaning or value - esp. when they are a bigoted asshole who can't get behind equal rights for all? Why doesn't their supposed inner goodness prevent them from being total dicks on the outside? These are mysteries beyond my concern. And again, I can't let it slide because the guy is the Prez. It matters what he does because he's sadly the super-representative of us all. His actions might set a precedent or standard for the weak minded.

fullofgrace -> RE: For those still needing a reason to hate this SOB... (6/3/2006 10:13:33 PM)
i'm somewhat exhausted to read through everything. something that struck me, though, when i was reading the posts below mine, are the vehement attacks on bush's character. while i don't think the man's a saint, i think it makes us look just as vile to simply sit and attack his character, instead of his policies. besides, there is enough room for bulletholes in his policies that one could exhaust themselves doing just that. my biggest issue with banning gay marriage, or blocking gay marriage laws, is that it's unconstitutional. it's my understanding (and from what i remember of us history in 9th grade and government in 11th) that the constitution charges the government with a responsibility to respect the desires of the majority while protecting the rights of the minority. in this case, those who are against gay marriage and/or civil union make up a slim majority, and heterosexuals make up a majority. however, by denying the same rights to the minority, even in the setting of a civil union (which reeks of condescension and just pisses me off, but would nonetheless be better than nothing), the government is working expressly AGAINST the constitution. i have a whole slew of other reasons for being worked up about this, but this particular reason is the easiest to argue when others don't always share my views, especially because most americans at least (especially the ones who are against gay marriage) tend to be pro-constitution. (also, this wasn't expressly in reply to chaingang...i just usedthe autoreply. i'm replying to the thread as a whole. :))

Chaingang -> RE: For those still needing a reason to hate this SOB... (6/3/2006 11:02:08 PM)
I should clarify one thing: I don't hate Bush, I just hate who he seems to be by his words and deeds. I don't know the guy personally so I can't really muster up enough energy to flat out hate him for really real. But does he piss me off royally as Prez and as a public person? Hell yes! Resoundingly Hell Yes!!! All of what pisses me off is neatly stated above by fullofgrace. She's 100% absolutely correct in that it is the job of the government to protect any possible minority from any possible oppression from the majority. This is fundamentally what it means to be a patriotic American. Guess who is the number one law enforcement agent acting on behalf of the people? That's the executive branch of government as a hint... Yup. Bush the jackass. Our number one law enforcer is a tool of the radical right. We can't allow these damned politicians to create a whole category of "hate crimes" when it comes to things like beating a gay man nearly to death and then leaving him to die of exposure in Laramie, Wyoming and then also allow them to enshrine bigotry in our Federal Constitution by denying gay people the right to marry. It simply does not make sense. That's incoherent policy-making.

MsMacComb -> RE: For those still needing a reason to hate this SOB... (6/3/2006 11:06:51 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wulfchyld Oh hell! I thought this thread was about me! [sm=biggrin.gif] Whoop out your voter registration card. It just might be, lol. [sm=hello.gif]

pinkee -> RE: For those still needing a reason to hate this SOB... (6/4/2006 1:50:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania You know level, what is worse, drumming up hatred against those you have nothing against, or actually hating the people you want others to hate. If I am to understand you, Bush nor Cheney hate gays because Cheney's daughter is gay, but they use this hatred to win elections... and I am supposed to admire this man??? That makes him reprehensible ... although it isnt like he lost my support for furthering hatred, he never had it No, you didn't understand me. I'm pro-life. Does that mean I hate women that support abortion rights? The answer is no, and that's a fact. Not just my opinion. Looking at that example, I can put myself in Bush's shoes and see how he could oppose a group or activity without hatred. I don't give a damn if you "admire" him or not, I never even hinted at that. And it's astounding how so many can call someone hateful, and be so hate-filled themselves. There's a word for that. Level Main Entry:1hate Pronunciation:ht Function:noun Usage:often attributive Etymology:Middle English, from Old English hete; akin to Old High German haz hate, Greek kdos care Date:before 12th century 1 a : intense hostility and aversion usually deriving from fear, anger, or sense of injury b : extreme dislike or antipathy : LOATHING had a great hate of hard work* 2 : an object of hatred a generation whose finest hate had been big business — F. L. Paxson Main Entry:de£spise Pronunciation:di-spz Function:transitive verb Inflected Form:de£spised ; de£spis£ing Etymology:Middle English, from Anglo-French despis-, stem of despire, from Latin despicere, from de- + specere to look — more at SPY Date:14th century 1 : to look down on with contempt or aversion despised the weak* 2 : to regard as negligible, worthless, or distasteful –de£spise£ment \-spz-mnt\ noun –de£spis£er \-sp-zr\ noun synonyms DESPISE, CONTEMN, SCORN, DISDAIN mean to regard as unworthy of one's notice or consideration. Meriam-Webster's 11th Collegate Dictionary IMO, hatred for any individual, while sometimes understandable, is injurious to the hater and rarely has any effect on the hated. It is more accurate to say i despise Bush's action, apparent motives, and certain of his proposals. pinkee

MsMacComb -> RE: For those still needing a reason to hate this SOB... (6/4/2006 1:56:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pinkee [IMO, hatred for any individual, while sometimes understandable, is injurious to the hater and rarely has any effect on the hated. It is more accurate to say i despise Bush's action, apparent motives, and certain of his proposals. pinkee You may well be correct. But it is hard not to feel hatred towards someone that hijacked my political party, used it to promote his version of religious persecution towards others, and has been abusing, torturing, killing and maiming people on a global scale ever since. Not to mention the lies, the graft, theft, over spending, favortism and nepotism. The trampling of our rights and and our security and our constitution. Pretty much everything good about America he has trashed, everything bad he could do in Americas name he has done or is still trying to do. If not hate then what?[:(]

pinkee -> RE: For those still needing a reason to hate this SOB... (6/4/2006 2:06:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsMacComb quote: ORIGINAL: pinkee [IMO, hatred for any individual, while sometimes understandable, is injurious to the hater and rarely has any effect on the hated. It is more accurate to say i despise Bush's action, apparent motives, and certain of his proposals. pinkee You may well be correct. But it is hard not to feel hatred towards someone that hijacked my political party, used it to promote his version of religious persecution towards others, and has been abusing, torturing, killing and maiming people on a global scale ever since. Not to mention the lies, the graft, theft, over spending, favortism and nepotism. The trampling of our rights and and our security and our constitution. Pretty much everything good about America he has trashed, everything bad he could do in Americas name he has done or is still trying to do. If not hate then what?[:(] Setting aside the question of what emotions You should feel -- which is rather silly; You feel how You feel -- the next logical step is to decide whether or not You are willing to act in any way, and if so, how. The Human Rights Coalition was formed in response to Bush's proposal to amend the US Constitution to ban gay marriage. You could contribute money. You could find a state legislator in Your state who opposses the proposed amendment, and contact him/her, giving the legislator the benefit of Your opinion. You could even work on his/her campaign for reelection, so that that legislator is present when/if the proposed amendment is sent to the states to be ratified. At a minumum, You can register to vote and then vote. pinkee

MsMacComb -> RE: For those still needing a reason to hate this SOB... (6/4/2006 2:32:48 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pinkee Setting aside the question of what emotions You should feel -- which is rather silly; You feel how You feel -- the next logical step is to decide whether or not You are willing to act in any way, and if so, how. The Human Rights Coalition was formed in response to Bush's proposal to amend the US Constitution to ban gay marriage. You could contribute money. You could find a state legislator in Your state who opposses the proposed amendment, and contact him/her, giving the legislator the benefit of Your opinion. You could even work on his/her campaign for reelection, so that that legislator is present when/if the proposed amendment is sent to the states to be ratified. At a minumum, You can register to vote and then vote. pinkee Oh I do. As I retired when I was 34 I have dedicated myself full time to being a political activist and an advocate for numerous groups, organizations and charities. But I still hate the SOB, lol. [:)]

UtopianRanger -> RE: For those still needing a reason to hate this SOB... (6/4/2006 4:59:28 AM)
quote: Bush doesnt hate of like anyone other than money, power and populaity. Amen. Bush and Cheney could careless about gay marriage. It’s a wedge issue designed to set up all types competing loyalty scenario’s that bring people out of the word-work who normally stay home. It’s masterful manipulation by Rove that both trumps and confuses moral relativism to / with a more decadent absolutism – Classic neocon / Straussin trickery that shakes up all the fundamentalists in this country. We may not like them, but its brilliant strategy that seems to work. - R

Level -> RE: For those still needing a reason to hate this SOB... (6/4/2006 5:10:11 AM)
Response to Chaingang: quote: Yes. Anyone that supports less than equal rights for anyone is supporting bigotry and hatred. Why do you have trouble with that? Chaingang, I agree it is bigoted, and I would say quite a few people who would deny gays the right to marry do so because they have hate towards them. I just don't think Bush is one of them, the reasons for which I've already given. quote: I am finding your line of questioning suspicious now. What's your point? You claim to agree to with most of us here and then play devil's advocate for some unknown reason. If you have a point it would seem to be something like this: "Can one's judgment of a person be separated from one's judgment of his deeds?" LOL. It's not just a "claim", it's a fact that I support gay marriage, and that I like gay folks. As for playing "devil's advocate" you're right about that-- in fact, go to the Adult Friendfinder site and you'll see DvlsAdvocate64-- that's moi. My "point" was that a number of people.... not just at CM.... can be rabid when it comes to critizing right-wingers, but develop a case of the mumbles when the wheel turns, and it's someone from the left under scrutiny. Thus my question regarding Clinton and Gore signing/supporting the Defense of Marriage Act. quote: I am supposed to care if some fucking monster on the outside is instead a good soul deep down on the inside? Sheesh, that MUST be someone else's job...why should I trouble myself to try to figure out someone's inner meaning or value - esp. when they are a bigoted asshole who can't get behind equal rights for all? Why doesn't their supposed inner goodness prevent them from being total dicks on the outside? These are mysteries beyond my concern. Adolph Hitler: bad on the outside, bad on the inside. Not much to work with there. If Bush is, as I say, a basically decent person with some backward beliefs, then that gives me hope that he can be reasoned with, somehow, someday. Sure I could be wrong. Hell, he might sit around and mutter about how those queers are subhuman and the world would be better off if they were all dead. I know people who have been terribly prejudiced, and have to one degree or another, grown out of it. To me, that's a good thing, and worth my concern. quote: And again, I can't let it slide because the guy is the Prez. It matters what he does because he's sadly the super-representative of us all. His actions might set a precedent or standard for the weak minded. I agree. And again, I hope everyone reading this thread that feels homosexuals deserve the right to marry will do their part in seeing the proposed amendment never passes.

irishbynature -> RE: For those still needing a reason to hate this SOB... (6/4/2006 5:14:37 AM)
I don't hate Bush. I dislike his policies. But hatred of anykind, toward anyone has a way for returning back to you. More or less, if you send 'hatred' in any form, it only finds its way back to you. Bush certainly isn't worth that kind of energy. He simply needs an IQ that's measurable.

Level -> RE: For those still needing a reason to hate this SOB... (6/4/2006 6:36:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level quote: I am supposed to care if some fucking monster on the outside is instead a good soul deep down on the inside? Sheesh, that MUST be someone else's job...why should I trouble myself to try to figure out someone's inner meaning or value - esp. when they are a bigoted asshole who can't get behind equal rights for all? Why doesn't their supposed inner goodness prevent them from being total dicks on the outside? These are mysteries beyond my concern. Adolph Hitler: bad on the outside, bad on the inside. Not much to work with there. If Bush is, as I say, a basically decent person with some backward beliefs, then that gives me hope that he can be reasoned with, somehow, someday. Sure I could be wrong. Hell, he might sit around and mutter about how those queers are subhuman and the world would be better off if they were all dead. I know people who have been terribly prejudiced, and have to one degree or another, grown out of it. To me, that's a good thing, and worth my concern. I want to add: if I am serious in placing a premium in being open-minded, then I think it would behoove me to keep an open mind towards others, even those I disagree with. Doesn't mean I have to agree with them, or like them. It just means I keep the WD-40 at the ready if I start to hear rusty squeaks coming from inside my head.

zumala -> RE: For those still needing a reason to hate this SOB... (6/4/2006 7:39:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger quote: Bush doesnt hate of like anyone other than money, power and populaity. Amen. Bush and Cheney could careless about gay marriage. It’s a wedge issue designed to set up all types competing loyalty scenario’s that bring people out of the word-work who normally stay home. It’s masterful manipulation by Rove that both trumps and confuses moral relativism to / with a more decadent absolutism – Classic neocon / Straussin trickery that shakes up all the fundamentalists in this country. We may not like them, but its brilliant strategy that seems to work. - R I have to agree for the most part with UR. This entire fiasco with gay marriage is simply because it's election time and the Republican Party keeps a stranglehold on power by stirring up Christians. It IS an effective strategy, if reprehensible. Now... I was raised Christian and to believe that the Republican Party was the Christian party. I voted for Bush the first time because I was against abortion and that seemed to be a key issue. I'm still against abortion today, but I have a brain and I've used it. I see that the Republicans are playing 'morality cards' to get votes. "We're against abortion because it's murder and against gay marriage, but we're committing the sin of GREED like crazy!" I'm not falling for it now that I'm an adult living away from my parents and thinking for myself. I didn't vote for Bush the second time around. I won't vote Republican this time, most likely. But however I vote, I will do so after very careful consideration of the people running. As for gay marriage... Marriage is defined as below: Main Entry: mar·riage Pronunciation: 'mar-ij Function: noun 1 : the state of being united to a person of the opposite sex as husband or wife in a legal, consensual, and contractual relationship recognized and sanctioned by and dissolvable only by law —see also DIVORCE 2 : the ceremony containing certain legal formalities by which a marriage relationship is created The state of marriage, specifically, is between a man and a woman. That said, I do not believe the term should be applied to other arrangements. However, that does not mean that I don't see good reason for giving certain rights and priviledges to people who have formed a solid and lasting relationship, regardless of their gender or orientation. A gay person should have every right in the world to visit his/her ill partner in a hospital as family, for example. To those slamming Christians and Christianity in general... shame on you. Those are blanket statements assuming that all of us are 'mindless sheep' or 'bigots' or what-have-you. Granted, there are a lot of folks who are well-meaning but easily led. And that's a shame. But that's not everyone. Please try to keep a civil tongue in your head, if you wouldn't mind. I don't go around slamming anyone else's religion, even if I don't agree with it. As for Bush himself... sigh I don't know the man, so I don't know what's going on in his head. But I DO NOT like what's going on right now. I don't agree with the war in Iraq, I don't agree with the oil price gouging, I don't agree with the push to destroy the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge, I don't agree with lying about weapons of mass destruction, and I don't know what the leaders in general are thinking. They're busy screwing around in Iraq, when Iran looks like a real threat. Sorry if any of this turned into a rant. I just wanted to air my own thoughts on the subject(s). zuma

darq -> RE: For those still needing a reason to hate this SOB... (6/4/2006 7:43:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsMacComb quote: ORIGINAL: darq I agree with this choice ... I'm against gay marriage. I also voted for Bush... Both times. Something to consider while you are bragging about voting for the worst president of all time and the most hated man in the world, if they are successful in their persecution of gays, you will be next. In fact you already are. There has been a concerted effort since the beginning of Bushocracy to suppress anything sexual beyond that which subscribes to their version if what is biblical. Where it up to them (and with your support it may well be) this site, all adult websites, B/S S/M, kink and any form of sexual acts not designed for reproductive purposes would be outlawed. Sodomy laws do still exist in many states as do cohabitation laws which would increase in other states and in the level of arrests made for such. So if/when the sex police, storm troopers, goose stepping Bushsquads kick in your door to see if you are giving a blow job, you will ahve no one to thank but yourself. Think it cant happen? BushCo has broken every other law theyve come across and rewritten the rest to suit their agenda to make the USA a theocracy. Uhm, considering I'm no longer active in the lifestyle and don't enjoy sex anyway, it doesn't personally effect me. Besides that, I don't support every decision this man has made. I do, however, support this decision.

Alumbrado -> RE: For those still needing a reason to hate this SOB... (6/4/2006 8:27:02 AM)
quote: Sodomy laws do still exist in many states as do cohabitation laws which would increase in other states and in the level of arrests made for such. So if/when the sex police, storm troopers, goose stepping Bushsquads kick in your door to see if you are giving a blow job, you will ahve no one to thank but yourself. Unless these 'many states' have seceded from the USA without anyone noticing, their laws are overruled under the Supreme Court decision on sodomy which clearly stated that the government had no business in our bedrooms. Until something changes, that is the current standard. If something does change to the point that any administration can ignore specific rulings like that one, there will be a whole lot more to worry about than a blow job, since all the other Supreme Court decisions would be equally unenforceable. Everyone else is certainly welcome to tilt at imaginary windmills, but I prefer to worry about the things that are actually happening right now.

Chaingang -> RE: For those still needing a reason to hate this SOB... (6/4/2006 9:53:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Level If Bush is, as I say, a basically decent person with some backward beliefs, then that gives me hope that he can be reasoned with, somehow, someday. Sure I could be wrong. Let's allow that his reasons could be these: 1. Wedge political issue (most likely scenario) 2. Misguided beliefs (frankly, I don't buy it) 3. Actual full on KKK style bigotry (which I agree is unlikely) But... It doesn't matter why he does what he does. None of those leaves me thinking he's "basically a decent person." Basically decent people don't support ideas like that. Joshua is claimed to have committed genocide in the area known as the "Promised Land" in the bible. Hitler painted roses and was significantly responsible for annihilating 12 million Europeans and Eastern-Europeans during a period of time famously known as the "holocaust" (burning the evidence?). Jeffrey Dahmer ate homosexual men. To someone these guys must have all seemed like really nice guys - the first two led their respective nations which means they had that magical charisma thing going on. Dahmer successfully tricked men into thinking he was a harmless homosexual like they were. But who cares? What matters is how they ultimately acted. I don't know any of those guys, I have to go by how they go down in history. Bush will go down at the very least as having used the strategy outlined by UtopianRanger. That's all well and good back at the White House political strategy meeting; but not so good on the ground where skinheads and KKK people will use these wedge issues as justification for their madness. I guess what I am saying is that 1 leads to 2 leads to 3 in fast order. The very fact that its a wedge issue means it will get talked about ad nauseam and not in ways that require critical thinking by the groups that will pursue routes 2 and 3. "Yeah, killed me a faggot. Damned sinners want the right to marry. Who's gonna marry you now faggot - with your brains all over the cement?" I mean, I live near gay mecca (aka San Francisco). Do you realize that gay bashing takes place even there? San Francisco has to be a place where people regularly get taught tolerance, and still the hate lingers. What the Prez is doing is absolutely equivocating on the issue of gay people and their civil rights. This is the moral equivalent of Bush saying that he hates gays and thinks they are subhuman just as all good god-fearing Christian folks do - but that if you kill or hurt them and then get caught they will have to slap you down with a federal hate crime charge (because, you know, the whole world is watching us in the U.S.). When does Bush have to do to make you question his essential goodness, Level? I think you give him the benefit of a doubt much too blithely.

Chaingang -> RE: For those still needing a reason to hate this SOB... (6/4/2006 9:59:47 AM)
Alumbrado: Are you nuts? People are tried under olde timey sodomy laws all the time. That 2003 ruling will get tested - never fear. For all we know it might get reversed by a new court. That happens all the time. Do the words "eternal vigilance" mean anything to you?

fullofgrace -> RE: For those still needing a reason to hate this SOB... (6/4/2006 12:15:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: darq quote: ORIGINAL: MsMacComb quote: ORIGINAL: darq I agree with this choice ... I'm against gay marriage. I also voted for Bush... Both times. Something to consider while you are bragging about voting for the worst president of all time and the most hated man in the world, if they are successful in their persecution of gays, you will be next. In fact you already are. There has been a concerted effort since the beginning of Bushocracy to suppress anything sexual beyond that which subscribes to their version if what is biblical. Where it up to them (and with your support it may well be) this site, all adult websites, B/S S/M, kink and any form of sexual acts not designed for reproductive purposes would be outlawed. Sodomy laws do still exist in many states as do cohabitation laws which would increase in other states and in the level of arrests made for such. So if/when the sex police, storm troopers, goose stepping Bushsquads kick in your door to see if you are giving a blow job, you will ahve no one to thank but yourself. Think it cant happen? BushCo has broken every other law theyve come across and rewritten the rest to suit their agenda to make the USA a theocracy. Uhm, considering I'm no longer active in the lifestyle and don't enjoy sex anyway, it doesn't personally effect me. Besides that, I don't support every decision this man has made. I do, however, support this decision. regardless of sexual acts...if he is allowed to flout the constitution this time, it's very likely that he'll do it again. and the more he does it, the more likely you ARE to be next to have your rights thrown out the window. to me, it's less a matter of what you personally believe and more a matter of how much you like having constitutional rights.

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