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RE: Benevolent's Taxonomy of Atheism - 3/19/2012 2:00:19 PM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		What I do believe is that I come from a family, a very old family that never really believed.
My fathers family, all families who end their names like mine in Holland come from the same region.
De Betuwe named after the batavians. Fierce warriors who were personal guards to the roman emperor. Known for being among the finest horsemen, they were the only horseriders known who were able to traverse rivers on their horses fully armored.

My moms family crest is two monks, dont know if that tells you something. They are christians to the core.
And I am left with that contradiction.
I would like to believe but its near impossible since I told you I am a carbon copy of my dad, not just in my looks.

That is what I believe. And a lot I can prove about my heritage.

So if you are a smart cookie you can find out what my name really is lol.
Peace out.

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RE: Benevolent's Taxonomy of Atheism - 3/19/2012 2:25:48 PM   
BenevolentM


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Status: offline 		Impulses are specific. Impulses such as the drive to sex, to eat, and so on are understood. It seems possible that atheism is a form of face blindness. The face blindness kind of produces sensible results, however, which must make it confusing.

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RE: Benevolent's Taxonomy of Atheism - 3/19/2012 2:34:06 PM   
BenevolentM


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Status: offline 		Perhaps it is a spectrum disorder that infects the whole of the human race where certain people through dedication and hard work are able to rise above it.

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RE: Benevolent's Taxonomy of Atheism - 3/19/2012 2:46:34 PM   
BenevolentM


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Joined: 11/15/2006
Status: offline 		I can accept that the models used by the religious may be gross over simplifications. This seems reasonable given that certain forms of disease that were once attributed to sin it was discovered were the result of microorganisms. The world was a more complicated place than the models indicated.

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RE: Benevolent's Taxonomy of Atheism - 3/19/2012 2:49:30 PM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

Perhaps it is a spectrum disorder that infects the whole of the human race where certain people through dedication and hard work are able to rise above it.


People like Buddha for example. Those who achieved "enlightenment".

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RE: Benevolent's Taxonomy of Atheism - 3/19/2012 3:05:15 PM   
MrBukani


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Status: offline 		http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/belief-and-the-brains-god-spot-1641022.html

I dont know if I gave you this link before, but maybe it helps you to back up your thesis.

You could argue its a disorder and I can argue the other way round.

Maybe you heard of the Delta32 gen, a mutated gene in humans, its a bit rare.
Some argue its a malfunction, I argue its natural evolution.

I believe sort of in genetic memory, its not proven yet, but it explains in some cases why we know certain things we havent learned yet.
Socrates argues about this in another way.
That we know everything but just cannot grasp it because our mortal bodies block that knowledge.

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 3/19/2012 3:09:57 PM >

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RE: Benevolent's Taxonomy of Atheism - 3/19/2012 3:22:21 PM   
BenevolentM


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Status: offline 		It has been generally assumed that atheist intellectuals were simply skeptical, but perhaps that skepticism stems from something akin to face blindness. Atheist intellectuals appear to have a fetish where they obsess over reducing arguments to a concrete form. I just thought they sought precision which is something that interests me, but perhaps they have this obsession because they cannot perform the operations on the fly much in the same way people with face blindness use deduction to associate a face with a name.

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RE: Benevolent's Taxonomy of Atheism - 3/19/2012 3:41:15 PM   
MrBukani


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Status: offline 		Another thing you might consider.
My best friend believes in God.
She told me she doesnt need a reason for everything.
Considering your faith, do you have a reason or is it more based on a feeling?
People tend to go with intuition, something that fits the profile so to say.
Look at yourself, you seem to reason things out.
Atheists do the same.
Whatever way you look at it starts with a feeling, I guess.
And the reasoning is geared towards affirming your own feeling.
For most it is biased.
In my case you might notice I keep an open mind although, I call myself an atheist, because there is my base intuition.
It is what is most plausible to anybody.
Do you have an open mind?
Otherwise you must admit you reason from a biased viewpoint.

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 3/19/2012 3:42:24 PM >

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RE: Benevolent's Taxonomy of Atheism - 3/19/2012 3:48:47 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
Atheists appear to be unable to reason abstractly. I did not realize this.

Nope, the idea that atheists are unable to reason abstractly is at least in my case is demonstrably false as abstraction is an important principle in computer programming.

As someone who uses the principle on a regular basis with demonstrable results I submit that I have an understanding of the benefits and liabilities of abstraction which based upon your response you do not share.

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RE: Benevolent's Taxonomy of Atheism - 3/19/2012 4:09:02 PM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
Atheists appear to be unable to reason abstractly. I did not realize this.

Nope, the idea that atheists are unable to reason abstractly is at least in my case is demonstrably false as abstraction is an important principle in computer programming.

As someone who uses the principle on a regular basis with demonstrable results I submit that I have an understanding of the benefits and liabilities of abstraction which based upon your response you do not share.


I disagree. Computer programming is precisely what a person who has face blindness might gravitate towards since everything is specified in the concrete. What I am saying could explain why professed atheists represent such a small portion of the population. This is consistent with a disorder.

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RE: Benevolent's Taxonomy of Atheism - 3/19/2012 4:32:10 PM   
BenevolentM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

I believe sort of in genetic memory, its not proven yet, but it explains in some cases why we know certain things we havent learned yet.
Socrates argues about this in another way.
That we know everything but just cannot grasp it because our mortal bodies block that knowledge.


I agree. Our mortal bodies block knowledge. Check out http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Socrates. I like this quote.

quote:

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Socrates

he who is a philosopher or lover of learning, and is entirely pure at departing, is alone permitted to reach the gods.


Go Socrates!

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RE: Benevolent's Taxonomy of Atheism - 3/19/2012 4:46:50 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
I disagree. Computer programming is precisely what a person who has face blindness might gravitate towards since everything is specified in the concrete.


*Face palm* I see, you're not familiar with computer programming. Here's a basic overview of the principle of abstraction.

Generally in coding anything remotely complex we rely upon multiple levels of abstraction. Our current disconnect is because you don't actually have an adequate grasp of abstract thinking, i.e. that abstractions need to be valid.

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RE: Benevolent's Taxonomy of Atheism - 3/19/2012 5:03:06 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
Atheists appear to be unable to reason abstractly. I did not realize this.

Nope, the idea that atheists are unable to reason abstractly is at least in my case is demonstrably false as abstraction is an important principle in computer programming.

As someone who uses the principle on a regular basis with demonstrable results I submit that I have an understanding of the benefits and liabilities of abstraction which based upon your response you do not share.


I'm afraid that you "demonstrably" (if you'll excuse the expression) fail to grasp the difference between abstract reasoning and "abstraction" in programming.

Abstract Reasoning Ability
    The aptitudes and abilities measured by verbal and numeric reasoning tests can easily be related to real world tasks and jobs, as many jobs require some degree of skill with words and numbers. Abstract reasoning tests on the other hand, seem to consist of questions which have little or no application in the real world. Yet these types of question appear in most graduate and management aptitude tests... abstract reasoning questions are seen to be a good measure of general intelligence, as they test your ability to perceive relationships and then to work out any co-relationships without you requiring any knowledge of language or mathematics.
Abstraction in Computer Science
    the process by which data and programs are defined with a representation similar in form to its meaning (semantics), while hiding away the implementation details. Abstraction tries to reduce and factor out details so that the programmer can focus on a few concepts at a time. A system can have several abstraction layers whereby different meanings and amounts of detail are exposed to the programmer. For example, low-level abstraction layers expose details of the computer hardware where the program is run, while high-level layers deal with the business logic of the program.
Abstract reasoning ability is not accompanied by "liabilities." Have a go, if you like. There's an easy one and a hard one:

Abstract Reasoning Aptitude Tests

K.

(in reply to GotSteel)
Profile   Post #: 253
RE: Benevolent's Taxonomy of Atheism - 3/19/2012 5:17:12 PM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		Dutch call themselves sober people. As in we like to keep grounded.
We have a saying, act/do normal, you're already crazy enough.
"Doe maar normaal want je bent al gek genoeg."
Nothing personal, just how we think.
You see little chrome here and pimped out cars.
We dont like too much blingbling.
About 35% of us are atheist, Thats not a small portion.
This goes for many western countries.
We, my family was forced to lie through the ages, they believe in God. The ones who did not lie were killed, that doesnt help your loved ones.
Its kinda hard to call it a disorder without insulting either way.
We have been tolerant a long time.
But here it is.
Like you know, it is not to be proven without a doubt either way.
Either atheists or believers in God are wrong.
Even Socrates contemplated there might be nothing.
Although he could not believe it.
We all like to be right, but somebody is wrong.
Thats why philosophers always have to leave an opening for either way. Thats abstract thinking.
Thats why prophets are not philosophers.
When we die we will know for sure.
Except when there is nothing.
Then we still dont know cause we are non existant.
So I disagree with Socrates about an afterlife.
Its more plausible we will never know now or in the future.
Just like he reasoned there must be life after death in his last conversation before death. , through pure reason.
I reason the opposite within natures laws.
Still I abide as much I can with religious laws as long as they dont contradict my convictions.
If God is Allah, will christians be allowed in heaven.
If there is a nirvana, will you be dissapointed?
If you reincarnate will you know?
I am ready for anything.
Thats an open mind.
Therefor I am always right.
I just tend to lean to one side more, cause it reasons out better in my little universe.
Thats not a disorder.
Thats order within chaos.

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 3/19/2012 5:40:58 PM >

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RE: Benevolent's Taxonomy of Atheism - 3/19/2012 5:23:24 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
Atheist intellectuals appear to have a fetish where they obsess over reducing arguments to a concrete form.


You could be right there, BM. I'm forever cracking off hand shandies to porn websites in which tasty women in thigh boots sit there seductively reducing arguments to concrete forms.

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RE: Benevolent's Taxonomy of Atheism - 3/19/2012 10:03:49 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM
It seems possible that atheism is a form of face blindness.


So you've come up with a hypothesis, what now? It initially seems plausible to you, what do you do from here to determine if it actually is?

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RE: Benevolent's Taxonomy of Atheism - 3/20/2012 12:32:23 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

Abstract Reasoning Aptitude Tests

Pasted wrong link... correct one follows:

http://www.fibonicci.com/abstract-reasoning/test/

K.

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RE: Benevolent's Taxonomy of Atheism - 3/20/2012 2:39:15 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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Status: offline 		Kirata: "Abstraction tries to reduce..." (from his citation)

Precisely. Chemical Abstracts is a distillation of, primarily, syntheses of novel organic molecules, or novel syntheses of existing molecules. Abstraction is, in this usage, essentially synonymous with simplification without loss of information.



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RE: Benevolent's Taxonomy of Atheism - 3/20/2012 6:17:47 AM   
xssve


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BenevolentM

Atheists appear to be unable to reason abstractly. I did not realize this. I thought atheists intellectuals for example were simply trying to make our understanding of things more precise.

Yes, abstraction in the larger sense is taking a set of processes, empirical or hypothetical, and constructing a symbolic model that explains and is predictive of, the behavior of that process or processes, including grouping similar processes, taxonomy.

Solids, liquids, gasses, metal salts, mammals, etc.

Science is based on the analysis of empirical processes, using independently replicable/confirmable experimental data - all mammals are warm blooded.

The result is an empirical, independently testable abstraction, a theory.

Religion is based on unproven hypothesis, and selective interpretation of random data.

The result is a set of hypothetical abstractions that are often untestable, and no Two people get the same results, which is necessary to establish empirical validity, and predictive validity is indicative of empirical validity.

i.e., monitoring precipitation and temperature patterns around the Arctic circle is more predictive of storms in the Midwest than whether gays marry or not, and in the case of the former, the more data you add, the more predictive the model becomes, which tends to confirm the validity of a global weather system model, utilizing empirical data sets, and the methodology used to create it - in the case of the latter, adding data only confuses the issue further, and makes it less predictive.

Now if you had said: "atheists have no imagination", you might have formed a testable hypothesis with some possibility of at least partial verification. As is, you have merely constructed a syllogistic fallacy.

But the real flaw in your hypothesis is that one must be an atheist in order to do science, which is patently and demonstrably false, there are plenty of religious scientists, possibly even a majority of them, it's simply that they cannot include hypothetical, untestable, and uncontrollable variables into their experiments without strictly specifying that they are doing so, and how (generating a hypothesis) and other scientist are welcome to remodel that experiment in order to confirm the results and test the hypothesis without being accused of heresy or burned at the stake (theoretically).

With a little effort, you can replicate the experiments of Copernicus, a Catholic cleric who lived Four centuries ago, if you still think the world revolves around you.

In centuries of doing it, no one has ever been able to confirm the existence of the hypothetical god variable, or describe any of it's attributes or behaviors, which leaves it a a purely abstract and untestable hypothesis, which means it cannot be controlled for in an experiment - that's just the state of things as they stand at this date in time; atheism ain't got nothing to do with it.

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RE: Benevolent's Taxonomy of Atheism - 3/20/2012 6:26:45 AM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Kirata: "Abstraction tries to reduce..." (from his citation)

Precisely. Chemical Abstracts is a distillation of, primarily, syntheses of novel organic molecules, or novel syntheses of existing molecules. Abstraction is, in this usage, essentially synonymous with simplification without loss of information.


Say, would you mind going into more detail as to what you're saying here?

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