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RE: I pledge Alligence to the Flag of the United States... - 3/15/2012 6:38:54 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: joether



...How many of those conservatives and/or veterans bitching about this particular flag.....VOTED FOR OBAMA in 2008?



I voted for Obama (not against the other guy) in 2008. This year I will vote against the GOP which leaves my vote going to Obama again. Not my first choice, but I feel my only choice at this point in time outside of a brokered convention. I am not satisfied with 'anybody' but Obama. I'd rather have Obama than any of the GOP currently running.

I don't see what that has to do with the issue though. This isn't about Obama, it's about the flag. I do my research before I vote, they should have done theirs before they flew. My ire would have been raised regardless of which political entity flew it. Plaster Mitts face, Newts face.. who ever. Same difference to me. Candidates and even presidents come and go. The flag may change as we add states and what not but it is enduring as a symbol. That's pretty much what this is about.

If strong emotions about my country and it's symbols are petty, I wonder what it takes for something not to be petty. I posted because, obviously, I don't think it's a petty. My country ranks just under my family in /people things about which I care. I'm fine with you thinking it is a petty argument although it makes me wonder, if it's so petty, why you bothered posting and linking to 'other people do it, too' sites. We all have our little foibles and this just happens to be one of mine. You are free to have your own foibles and I doubt seriously, if I would call or imply that you are petty for them. If I did think that, I'd probably just keep it to myself.







_____________________________

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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: I pledge Alligence to the Flag of the United States... - 3/15/2012 7:12:36 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

The U.S. flag actually has a long history of NOT being standardized with variations representing different military units (particularly during the civil war) and political movements. I like this aspect of our national culture and would like to see more of it (besides, it IS a matter of free speech as far as I'm concerned). I may or may not like some group's particular variation but that is beside the point.


Marc comes close to saying what I feel. There's a fascinating book called Long May She Wave: A Graphic History of the American Flag. It shows the amazing variety of ways that people have adapted and depicted the flag. If you use Amazon's Look Inside feature (click "Surprise Me!"), you'll see some examples: pins with flags made of rhinestones, a fan with a flag on it (an essential part of my July 4th ensemble), even one made of baseball and bats. To me, this freedom with the flag testifies to two things: (a) it's an incredibly successful graphic design, recognizable in countless media, and (b) we've truly made the flag our own, seeing it not as a stiff, old, untouchable aunt but as a dear friend who can take a bit of teasing because the underlying bond is so strong.

ETA: Here's an example of a baseball flag:



On a personal note, I admit I have a particular fondness for what I call Old Fabulous: the rainbow flag with the blue field and stars in the corner.



Let me hasten to add that my somewhat playful approach to flag variations does not make me any less persnickety about treating the actual Stars and Stripes with respect.



< Message edited by dcnovice -- 3/15/2012 7:38:36 PM >

_____________________________

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RE: I pledge Alligence to the Flag of the United States... - 3/15/2012 7:24:18 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

If strong emotions about my country and it's symbols are petty, I wonder what it takes for something not to be petty. I posted because, obviously, I don't think it's a petty.


I for one, don't think either your original post, nor your feelings concerning the flag, this country, or anything expressed was petty.
But I also don't think Obama was ever in a moment where he viewed that flag or had prior knowledge and if need be I can contact Andy Keene and ask.
I just can't agree that "novelty item" represents a defacement of the flag. Nor do I think the actions of an _individual_ in one local campaign office is a reason to indict ANY President.
I can respect your beliefs. And I hope you can respect mine.

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RE: I pledge Alligence to the Flag of the United States... - 3/15/2012 7:59:31 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

If strong emotions about my country and it's symbols are petty, I wonder what it takes for something not to be petty. I posted because, obviously, I don't think it's a petty.


I for one, don't think either your original post, nor your feelings concerning the flag, this country, or anything expressed was petty.
But I also don't think Obama was ever in a moment where he viewed that flag or had prior knowledge and if need be I can contact Andy Keene and ask.
I just can't agree that "novelty item" represents a defacement of the flag. Nor do I think the actions of an _individual_ in one local campaign office is a reason to indict ANY President.
I can respect your beliefs. And I hope you can respect mine.

It's highly unlikely that Obama knew or, perhaps even knows anything at all about this issue. Maybe if they had flown it on its own, I'd feel different and I would look at it as a novelty item as well. I think it was seeing Old Glory right above it that irked me. It just seemed so disrespectful to me and I'm absolutely sure it was never intended to be. That doesn't mean it wasn't dumb but I never thought it was malicious or anything along those lines and I understand the sentiment. Obama has been blasted for three years and accused of all sorts of weird shit from his birth cert to his loyalty to this country, something which I have never doubted. I think he's an amazing man. I'd love to rock out with him or just sit and chat with him and his wife (I think she is a great first lady! I also thought Laura Bush was a great first lady.) I never put this on Obama but I did think the GOP would use it against him until Lucy linked to that other site with the Tea People (whatever they're called these days) which I do think will mitigate and preclude anyone from making too big an issue. I really was concerned it would go viral, but it turns out that I guess not many are that concerned about it and I'm cool with it. I'm over my knee-jerk about it and my cooler head is prevailing.

SternSkipper, I do respect your beliefs and have always appreciated the nice things you have had to personally say to me. Pretty much, I think you rock and I'm not about to change that opinion now. I am of the firm belief that adults can disagree and still remain civil and friendly. You have paid me compliments and I shall return one to you.. I think you're pretty cool and enjoy reading you. That's about as good as it can get on the Internet for me and I'd sit down next to you anytime and shoot the breeze and have no doubt I'd enjoy myself while doing so. :D

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: I pledge Alligence to the Flag of the United States... - 3/15/2012 8:30:34 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

SternSkipper, I do respect your beliefs and have always appreciated the nice things you have had to personally say to me. Pretty much, I think you rock and I'm not about to change that opinion now. I am of the firm belief that adults can disagree and still remain civil and friendly.


THIS ... is what was important to me... and why I said my piece to you directly. And we van CERTAINLY disagree on finer points. And I think you'll find a number of people in the thread feel EXACTLY the sane way... And thanks for the compliment!
Oh, and...
quote:

Tea People (whatever they're called these days)


Down at Dewey Square... site of the Occupiers and probably RIGHT ON TOP of where the REAL Tea Party site (Boston was surrounded by a lot more water in those days and the ship was actually about 200' from BOA's front door... had a LOT to do with the choice of locations)... We call em The Occupy NOTHING movement

< Message edited by SternSkipper -- 3/15/2012 8:31:44 PM >

_____________________________

Looking forward to The Dead Singing The National Anthem At The World Series.




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(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: I pledge Alligence to the Flag of the United States... - 3/15/2012 10:09:10 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

so when shit like this happens it tends to piss me off. Learn the fucking flag code.

Damn dumb. You got it in the bag, it's yours to lose and yet once again the march to implosion begins. Obama, of course, will pay the price for this sheer stupidity.

Obama Face Flag

Beware the ides of March indeed.


aw come on those are our LEADERS! Its all good! Isnt it?


_____________________________

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RE: I pledge Alligence to the Flag of the United States... - 3/16/2012 10:59:00 AM   
PatrickG38


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kaliko

FR

The American Flag is symbolic to many people and means to them much, much more than any scrap of cloth.

I didn't know anything about proper display and respect for the flag until a few years ago. What a horrible shame that this isn't one of the very first things schools teach. Or parents, for that matter.


Isn't this the definition of idolitry. The flag is a piece of cloth; it means nothing. The ideas it symbolizes are what is important. Moreover, have not there been enough examples even on this thread of everyone across the political spectrum 'customizing' the flag to demostrate this is a non-issue. Americans are way too sensative. This flag offended people? Those people should get a life and worry about more important matters.

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RE: I pledge Alligence to the Flag of the United States... - 3/16/2012 11:23:39 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

The flag is a piece of cloth; it means nothing. The ideas it symbolizes are what is important.

Well if that's your attitude, then the Constitution is just a piece of paper and people are just bags of water.

So who gives a fuck, right?

K.

(in reply to PatrickG38)
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RE: I pledge Alligence to the Flag of the United States... - 3/16/2012 12:21:59 PM   
PatrickG38


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

The flag is a piece of cloth; it means nothing. The ideas it symbolizes are what is important.

Well if that's your attitude, then the Constitution is just a piece of paper and people are just bags of water.

So who gives a fuck, right?

K.


I am unsure what you mean. Obviously a printed copy of the constitution is just a piece of paper. Some of the ideas enshrined in the Constitution are worth protecting and defending (some, of course, are not), but thinking the printed material special (except possibly for archival value or display) is another form of idolatry. Obviously, all the people here offended by this ‘altered’ flag (which is of course a pseudo offense generated for political reasons), should be supportive of the Afghani’s reaction to the desecration of a Qu’oran since that would give even more offense.
As for human’s being a bag of water, I have no idea what you mean. Unlike a flag, humans are sentient, intelligent creatures capable of experiencing a gamut of emotions and stimuli, not a piece of cloth.
I would love to think we are a tougher nation, but conservatives seem to be surpassing liberals in sensitivity. Crybabies all around.

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RE: I pledge Alligence to the Flag of the United States... - 3/16/2012 12:29:09 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What is the Flag Code? And, don't just respond incredulously that I don't know it. Just answer the question. Oh, and try not to go look it up before you answer. Let's see how much people actually know about the Flag Code.

This is twice.  I have a feeling you and I aren't going to get along very well.

I could spend an hour typing up what I know about respecting the flag.  Everything from raising it, to lowering it, to the way it gets folded after it has been gracing a coffin.

What do you want to know?


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RE: I pledge Alligence to the Flag of the United States... - 3/16/2012 12:35:28 PM   
Edwynn


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~FR~

The flag itself did not really offend me because I can't take such an asinine antic as displayed there seriously enough to be offended. Though the issue obviously flies over numerous heads here, the primary offense taken by many was the context in which the flag was displayed more than the particulars of the 'flag' itself.

The question to me is why Democrats are not taken aback by this level of puerile tomfoolery and lack of basic good sense from a local chapter of the DNC. Seriously, you guys are OK with this? You're OK with having the otherwise (arguably) laudable and honorable tenets and goals of the party represented in this fashion? All I can say is that the quality of local chapter DNC chairs has declined precipitously. Likewise the mental faculties of some members in general, as well displayed in this thread. The national DNC office should send a cease and desist order forthwith if they have any sense at all.

Not for purpose of 'bragging on family,' but my grand aunt was the only local chapter chair I've known firsthand (first woman chair elected to the Anderson Co., SC DNC chapter, 1964) and I can tell you that her general aversion to tackiness of whatever sort, not to mention sense of purpose concerning the party, would have precluded such a stunt to begin with. But I'll carry her spirit forward here (she being some years since departed) and say to the Lake Co. Florida chapter: You folks need to have a recall election and dump Ms. Hulbert ASAP.



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RE: I pledge Alligence to the Flag of the United States... - 3/16/2012 12:40:51 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

I am unsure what you mean... humans are sentient

Your premise was: "The flag is a piece of cloth; it means nothing. The ideas it symbolizes are what is important." But the "ideas it stands for" are what it means. As to humans being sentient, so what? A bag of water means nothing. It's what it stands for that's important. Your logic, not mine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: PatrickG38

Obviously, all the people here offended by this ‘altered’ flag... should be supportive of the Afghani’s reaction to the desecration of a Qu’oran

That's a dirty shot, and a non-sequitur to boot. It does not follow from arguing respect for the flag that those people support (or "should" support) the violent murder of anybody who disrespects it, along with as many people as possible who look like them or come from the same place.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 3/16/2012 12:56:45 PM >

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RE: I pledge Alligence to the Flag of the United States... - 3/16/2012 12:42:51 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What is the Flag Code? And, don't just respond incredulously that I don't know it. Just answer the question. Oh, and try not to go look it up before you answer. Let's see how much people actually know about the Flag Code.

This is twice.  I have a feeling you and I aren't going to get along very well.

I could spend an hour typing up what I know about respecting the flag.  Everything from raising it, to lowering it, to the way it gets folded after it has been gracing a coffin.

What do you want to know?


Hell, I learned this in Boy Scouts--we all did.

And I see it violated daily.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 3/16/2012 12:43:11 PM >

(in reply to LadyPact)
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RE: I pledge Alligence to the Flag of the United States... - 3/16/2012 12:44:35 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

The flag itself did not really offend me


Me neither. And technically, it's position under the U.S. flag is appropriate for flying banners.

It is, however, a poor idea, and in questionable taste.

(in reply to Edwynn)
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RE: I pledge Alligence to the Flag of the United States... - 3/16/2012 12:56:00 PM   
PatrickG38


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Joined: 10/8/2010
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Obviously, all the people here offended by this ‘altered’ flag... should be supportive of the Afghani’s reaction to the desecration of a Qu’oran
[/quote]
That's a dirty shot, and a non-sequitur to boot. It does not follow from arguing respect for the flag that those people support (or "should" support) the violent murder of anybody who disrespects it, along with as many people as possible who look like them or come from the same place.

K.[/font][/size]
[/quote]

Fair enough, but certainly anyone who is deeply upset by this should understand the anger generated by those actions if not the violence.

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: I pledge Alligence to the Flag of the United States... - 3/16/2012 6:35:15 PM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
What is the Flag Code? And, don't just respond incredulously that I don't know it. Just answer the question. Oh, and try not to go look it up before you answer. Let's see how much people actually know about the Flag Code.

This is twice.  I have a feeling you and I aren't going to get along very well.


Huh? Twice? Twice, what?

quote:


I could spend an hour typing up what I know about respecting the flag.  Everything from raising it, to lowering it, to the way it gets folded after it has been gracing a coffin.
What do you want to know?



I want to know what everyone knows. I am not asking for anything specific. There are a lot of people on here arguing about use/abuse of the flag that obviously don't really know what the flag code is.

_____________________________

What I support:

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RE: I pledge Alligence to the Flag of the United States... - 3/16/2012 6:39:37 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

And I see it violated daily.


I used to work at a prestigious national organization where the guards would haul the flag down at day's end and dump it on the floor. It drove me bananas.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: I pledge Alligence to the Flag of the United States... - 3/16/2012 6:49:45 PM   
DomMeinCT


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dcnovice

quote:

And I see it violated daily.


I used to work at a prestigious national organization where the guards would haul the flag down at day's end and dump it on the floor. It drove me bananas.


That's exactly what was happening to the flag at the headquarters in front of my large corporation until an employee complained bitterly about it on our corporate message board for everyone to see. It was great to see how fast that got fixed. Now, at sunset every day our guards go out, bring down the flag, and fold it properly.

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RE: I pledge Alligence to the Flag of the United States... - 3/16/2012 9:07:46 PM   
SamuelJ


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its just a cloth? Yeah try telling that to a marine

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: I pledge Alligence to the Flag of the United States... - 3/17/2012 2:35:13 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SamuelJ



its just a cloth? Yeah try telling that to a marine



yeh well I happen to know one of the marines (now dead) in that pic and the whole family and you would not like what he would say about your rah rah cheerleader club.

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to SamuelJ)
Profile   Post #: 80
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