RE: Catholic Bishops' Fight Against HHS Mandate (Full Version)

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Raiikun -> RE: Catholic Bishops' Fight Against HHS Mandate (3/18/2012 11:07:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


Now, show an analogy between heroin use and preventing a pregnancy.




Two things that a Catholic organization might find morally wrong.

Any other meaning, "insights" into my moral beliefs, are complete fabrications.



Raiikun -> RE: Catholic Bishops' Fight Against HHS Mandate (3/18/2012 11:10:09 AM)

And interestingly enough, my intial analogy was going to be purchasing firearms rather than heroin. I naively thought that heroin would be less likely to be used to spin to claim things I never claimed.



tazzygirl -> RE: Catholic Bishops' Fight Against HHS Mandate (3/18/2012 11:11:31 AM)

Yet they do not find sex with little boys "morally wrong"?

They do not find discrimination "morally wrong"?

They do not find taking tax money to fund their moral beliefs, tax money from those who do not believe in "their" morals, "morally wrong"?

Is this really the bs you believe?



Raiikun -> RE: Catholic Bishops' Fight Against HHS Mandate (3/18/2012 11:14:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


Is this really the bs you believe?



What exactly are you trying to claim I believe again?



tazzygirl -> RE: Catholic Bishops' Fight Against HHS Mandate (3/18/2012 11:16:18 AM)

That their "moral beliefs" should trump my beliefs.

That their "moral values" should be my moral values.

That they have the right to force their "morals" on anyone.



Raiikun -> RE: Catholic Bishops' Fight Against HHS Mandate (3/18/2012 11:16:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

That their "moral beliefs" should trump my beliefs.

That their "moral values" should be my moral values.

That they have the right to force their "morals" on anyone.



That is not representative of my beliefs. So feel free to stop trying to claim it is.



Raiikun -> RE: Catholic Bishops' Fight Against HHS Mandate (3/18/2012 11:23:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

A simple summary.

Though you've reacted a lot.



My belief is that not wanting to be a part, either directly or indirectly, of enabling something is not the same as trying to impose that believe on others. This was stated from page 1, and is hardly "nothing."

My reactions are to those trying to invent statements or beliefs for me that I've never said or implied.



tazzygirl -> RE: Catholic Bishops' Fight Against HHS Mandate (3/18/2012 11:24:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

That their "moral beliefs" should trump my beliefs.

That their "moral values" should be my moral values.

That they have the right to force their "morals" on anyone.



That is not representative of my beliefs. So feel free to stop trying to claim it is.


You are offering that up for a valid argument for their position.

Defend it.

While you do, consider this.  When I pay into the insurance pool, I pay for the number of dependents I have, plus myself.  Most women would be crazy not too, and I know very few who do unless the man claims them on his.. and even then the children are more likely covered by both.

A woman taking birth control is less likely to be adding those dependents.  Just a mathematical fact.  Therefore, lowering the cost to the pool.

A woman having a baby can add 20,000 in medical expenses in just 9 short months.  Thats only for pregnancy and delivery, with no complications  Hospital, lab, Dr, anesthesiology, medication, ect.  Add well baby care immediately afterwards.  Again, if no complications.  Any complications can quickly double, triple, or even more.  And this is before her premiums go up.

How is this cheaper than 9 dollars a month for the insurance company?  Even a boost of premiums by the typical 50 dollars for a dependent wont cover that cost.

So, while you are explaining the above, explain this too.

And, do not try and dodge this one.



Raiikun -> RE: Catholic Bishops' Fight Against HHS Mandate (3/18/2012 11:26:14 AM)

quote:

You are offering that up for a valid argument for their position.

Defend it.



Offering what up as a valid argument for their position?

I need to know if I really have something to defend, or if it's something you fabricated again.



tazzygirl -> RE: Catholic Bishops' Fight Against HHS Mandate (3/18/2012 11:27:06 AM)

Nope.. defend it.  It is your position that they are entitled too because its against their "moral belief"



Raiikun -> RE: Catholic Bishops' Fight Against HHS Mandate (3/18/2012 11:32:13 AM)

Edit: Actually, never mind. It's not worth it.



searching4mysir -> RE: Catholic Bishops' Fight Against HHS Mandate (3/18/2012 11:42:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Yet they do not find sex with little boys "morally wrong"?


Yes, they do. The Catholic Church has NEVER said that child molestation is moral or a good thing. Child molestation is far more likely to happen by a teacher, coach or family member than by a priest.

quote:


They do not find discrimination "morally wrong"?


Depends on if it is to be just or unjust discrimination. I don't believe all discrimination is unjust.

The root word of discrimination is discrīminātiō which means "a distinguishing".



tazzygirl -> RE: Catholic Bishops' Fight Against HHS Mandate (3/18/2012 11:42:58 AM)

quote:

Actually, my position here is that it's not the same thing as trying to enforce their moral belief on others. Important difference.

My belief on whether they should be forced to cover it falls under a different area, one I've already tried to explain.


And its been clearly pointed out that the only reason they are objecting to it it because its against their moral beliefs.. which are not everyone's moral beliefs.  So, yes, by virtue of legislation, political power and purse strings, they are trying to force their moral beliefs upon others.




GotSteel -> RE: Catholic Bishops' Fight Against HHS Mandate (3/18/2012 11:47:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

Didn't you know? Lying is the new truth: it's ok to lie to sinners in the name of John Calvin, our enabler.

You just keep hammering on it till it seems "truthy".


Have you been giving advice to Rick Santorum?



GotSteel -> RE: Catholic Bishops' Fight Against HHS Mandate (3/18/2012 11:48:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun
No, I'm not. You realize that's just an analogy?


Do you realize what an analogy is?



GotSteel -> RE: Catholic Bishops' Fight Against HHS Mandate (3/18/2012 11:50:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir
Yes, they do. The Catholic Church has NEVER said that child molestation is moral or a good thing. Child molestation is far more likely to happen by a teacher, coach or family member than by a priest.


How have you gotten accurate numbers on that?



tazzygirl -> RE: Catholic Bishops' Fight Against HHS Mandate (3/18/2012 11:52:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: searching4mysir


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Yet they do not find sex with little boys "morally wrong"?


Yes, they do. The Catholic Church has NEVER said that child molestation is moral or a good thing. Child molestation is far more likely to happen by a teacher, coach or family member than by a priest.

quote:


They do not find discrimination "morally wrong"?


Depends on if it is to be just or unjust discrimination. I don't believe all discrimination is unjust.

The root word of discrimination is discrīminātiō which means "a distinguishing".


Which is why they shifted priests around for so long.  Because they were morally against this issue.  But, instead of deciding to prosecute, they hid.

Although the recent revelations of clergy sexual abuse suggests an unusual and recent epidemic among the Catholic church, the historical record suggests this difficulty has plagued the church over the centuries. The recent effort of investigative reporters and adult survivors alleging sexual abuse by clergy, has led to an increased public awareness of the extent of illegal sexual activity occurring in the church. Opinion polls of Catholics in the United States have evidenced a critical view of the Church's administrative response to the crisis. Recently, criminal and civil cases have successfully challenged the negligence of the church hierarchy and the sexual misconduct by some of its members. Judicial decisions, however, tend to not hold churches liable for the sexual acts of their clergy. Despite continuing press coverage and civil/criminal litigation, research on priest offenders is virtually nonexistent The claims of unprecedented treatment success with clergy offenders has not been supported by published data. Given the high recidivism rates of sex offenders, the Catholic church should reconsider its policy of placing known sex offenders back into active ministry.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/pv666385476j9037/

Discusses the dynamics surrounding male child abuse by clergy, especially in the Catholic church, focusing on intervention and prevention. Since the sexual abuse of boys is often misunderstood and underreported, most abused boys remain locked in the secrecy of their sexual victimization. Clergy often have special access to boys by virtue of their trusted position in the church and community; the deep respect they receive makes the detection of abuse by clergy difficult. Intervention should come from the offender's colleagues and other professionals in the community. Reports of abuse should be made to the legal system, since many religious institutions have not made clear and consistent policies regarding clergy who are offenders. (PsycINFO Database Record (c) 2010 APA, all rights reserved)

http://psycnet.apa.org/psycinfo/1991-10114-001

So while you may recite statistics about abuse being far more likely to happen by a teacher, coach or family member than by a priest.  There is no way to prove your statement as the under reporting is widely acknowledged by professionals in the field among these victims by priests.





searching4mysir -> RE: Catholic Bishops' Fight Against HHS Mandate (3/18/2012 11:56:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance



YOU arent paying for it
DS ISNT paying for it
GOD ISNT paying for it
Catholics ARENT paying for it.

MY 87.43 every two weeks IS


Do you really think that your insurance cost is only $175 a month? You are ignoring the part that your EMPLOYER pays. That is only YOUR cost, not the total cost. And THAT is part of the problem. You think what comes out of your pocket is the only thing that matters. You don't give a shit about what comes out of someone else's pocket as long as you get what you want.



tazzygirl -> RE: Catholic Bishops' Fight Against HHS Mandate (3/18/2012 11:59:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Raiikun

Edit: Actually, never mind. It's not worth it.


Didnt think you could defend it.



Lucylastic -> RE: Catholic Bishops' Fight Against HHS Mandate (3/18/2012 12:01:17 PM)

that sounds JUST like the catholic argument



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