RE: Stand your ground (Full Version)

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Hillwilliam -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 9:23:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


George Zimmerman is Hispanic and grew up in a multiracial family, the statement says. "He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever...," the letter says. "The media portrayal of George as a racist could not be further from the truth..."


My question is this. Is Zimmerman's dad claiming that his being hispanic has something to do with him not being racist? I can assure you that "Racism knows no race". Anyone can be a racist no matter what color you are.




Kirata -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 9:32:53 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

Obviously, we have very different life experience.

It appears we also have very different sources. Where are you getting these quotes of the exchange between Zimmerman and Martin? I took this little tale at face value at first, but after reading the Orlando Sentinel story I started trying to verify it. And so far, I can't find either the tale that's being told or the quotes you're posting.

K.






Kirata -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 9:51:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

My question is this. Is Zimmerman's dad claiming that his being hispanic has something to do with him not being racist? I can assure you that "Racism knows no race". Anyone can be a racist no matter what color you are.

Not because he's Hispanic, I think, but because he grew up in a multi-racial family.

K.







Edwynn -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 9:59:05 AM)

~FR~

But again the question remains:

Who's 'stand your ground' argument is to have precedence here? That of the initial (and final) victim who had legitimate fear from a real threat who stood his ground and responded in whatever manner to aggression from a stranger and therefor had the right to defend himself in whatever manner, or that of the initial aggressor who upon being presented with such defense as he was incapable of surmounting then himself supposedly falls within his rights of 'stand your ground' and so then entitled to respond in whatever manner?

Is it the person who stood his ground last that has the legal high 'ground' here, regardless who instigated the affair?

In Florida law, as in place now, this is at least possible. But the fact that the aggressor-now-defender was only suffering an everyday ass kicking as what everyday assholes deserve, there was no life threatening situation at hand that is the further requirement for the initial aggressor to have legal resort to use of deadly force. There were several choices of words and fleeing the scene available to the asshole-now-chickenshit that he chose not to pursue, the gun being his choice in the matter, so the 'stand your ground' defense seems to fall flat here for Zimmerman.






Kirata -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 10:04:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

But again the question remains:

The only "question" remaining is how you know what happened.

K.




Edwynn -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 10:07:12 AM)

We know who instigated. We know who died.

I did not propose to know what happened in the interim. I presented the question to those who propose to know what happened enough to proclaim that Zimmerman has a 'stand your ground' defense for his murder of another.





Charles6682 -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 10:19:01 AM)

The "Stand Your Ground" law here in Florida has been responislbe for other shootings down here where people think they can play Sherriff of Mayberry.The law clearly needs to be revised to include only pure acts of self defense.I certainly believe anyone has the right to defend themselves if they really must.If their life is really in harms way or their family.But this isn't the Wild West of the 1800s anymore.

That said,even the orginal backers of this bill are saying this Zimmerman guy can not use this law as a loophole for murder.Zimmerman was clearly following the teen,even after the police told him not to confront he young man.




Hillwilliam -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 10:31:08 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

My question is this. Is Zimmerman's dad claiming that his being hispanic has something to do with him not being racist? I can assure you that "Racism knows no race". Anyone can be a racist no matter what color you are.

Not because he's Hispanic, I think, but because he grew up in a multi-racial family.

K.





Regardless, Racism knows no race.




Kirata -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 10:31:22 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

We know who instigated. We know who died.

I did not propose to know what happened in the interim. I presented the question to those who propose to know what happened enough to proclaim that Zimmerman has a 'stand your ground' defense for his murder of another.

How do you know it was murder? You seem to me to "propose to know" quite a lot.
    The HS senior Trayvon Martin was not nor had not been engaged in an unlawful activity and was then attacked in any other place where he had a right to be and so had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground ..."why are you following me?" (standing ground), "what are you doing here?" (aggressive force, from a belligerent wacko)...
How do you know this? How do you know that Zimmerman attacked Martin? Or as one racially preoccupied mind-reader put it, attacked him for the crime of "walking while black."

K.




Edwynn -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 11:11:59 AM)


OK, it's not murder for the time being, merely killing another, substance for such action to be determined.

I did not state outright that Zimmerman attacked Martin. There is no question, however, that Zimmerman was the pursuer and the belligerent actor, as by his own taped conversation with the dispatcher. But Zimmerman's own actions, at least to a good extent not disputed, as are also not disputed the innecessity of such actions by the 911 dispatcher and a law enforcement agent having contributed here and other LEO personnel contributing elsewhere, are what led directly to the conflagration in the first place.

What quotes am I "making up"?

The Florida law concerning allowed use of deadly force in regards to 'standing ground' is available to all. Your quote above is my re-phrasing of the law as might pertain in this situation, as would be obvious to most readers, considering that the law itself was the start of the topic. There are other Florida laws that address the situation of 'feeling threatened' that apply, but I did not trouble myself to dig them out and include them in my post. I figured that people actually keeping up with the matter in the other Zimmerman thread would have been aware of that stance.

The link given which refers to Martin's 16 yr, old friend is not made up. The links to the record of Zimmerman's incessant calls to the police are not made up. The link to the testimony of the neighbors' accounts of Zimmerman knocking on doors and telling the occupants to be aware of strangers in the neighborhood “specifically referring to young black men who appeared to be outsiders” is not made up.

If you think the accounts given by those sources and those reporters are just 'made up' that is an issue you should take up with them. You are also welcome to explain to the rest of us why they just made all this up.

Your sources providing contrary to the above always welcome, of course.








Kirata -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 11:39:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

I did not state outright that Zimmerman attacked Martin.

I quoted you saying it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

Zimmerman's own actions... are what led directly to the conflagration in the first place.

I don't dispute that they led to the confrontation.
    A manual published by the association for its "USAonWatch" program makes that very clear.

    "It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles," the manual states. "Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous."
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

What quotes am I "making up"?

I finally found his girlfriend's recounting of the conversation. It isn't detailed in every story, and I'd missed it. The quotation marks are specious, but the intent is close enough. Mea culpa on that one (I've edited my post). The rest stands. You don't know what happened.

One detail you omit, for example, which just came up in the other thread, is that Martin was in someone's back yard. Not a good place to be. That's trespassing, and would only have tended to confirm Zimmerman's suspicion that Martin was up to no good.

Zimmerman should not have followed or been armed. But the outcome could still have been a lot different. As I said, not the best judgment by either party. It's certainly a tragedy, but I don't -- yet, at least -- see evidence to support charges of racism and murder.

K.




Real0ne -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 11:50:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

The problem is that the law in Florida requires some determination of the shooters mental state.


Irrelevant in the murder of Trayvon Martin. When you are the aggressor, you don't have any right of self-defense until you're broken off your attack, tried to retreat, are unable to retreat and are pretty much beaten to death.

Broken bones. Stitches... That sort of thing. And since (1) Zimmerman PURSUED his victim and (2) Zimmerman's "injuries" didn't necessitate a call to EMS, it's clear to everyone that he doesn't meet that standard for using deadly force as a consequence of his aggression.

The real question is "What does George Zimmerman have on the Sanford PD, that they'd fail to follow basic procedure in a murder investigation?"

I await the FBI's examination of that question eagerly.


probably that it was a gated community

why didnt the kid simply say hey asshole I am visiting my dad at blah blah address?

you all doin lots of speculation without facts here




Owner59 -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 11:51:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Dark rainy night,a guy in plain clothes comes up to you with a gun........how are you going to react.......running, would be one reasonable answer.

When did running away from a stranger with a gun ...... become suspicious?Seems to me what any living creature would do.

When was the last time you fucking knew what you were talking about? [:D]
    The Sanford Neighborhood Watch volunteer who shot and killed Trayvon Martin, an unarmed black teenager, did not instigate the encounter but has received death threats and moved out of his home, his father told the Orlando Sentinel on Thursday...

    George Zimmerman is Hispanic and grew up in a multiracial family, the statement says. "He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever...," the letter says. "The media portrayal of George as a racist could not be further from the truth..."

    Police have released little information about what happened that night and no details about how Trayvon and Zimmerman came to be face to face...

    Zimmerman told police he acted in self-defense. Police found blood on his face and the back of his head as well as grass on the back of his shirt.

    That jibes with what Cheryl Brown's teenage son witnessed while walking his dog that night. Thirteen-year-old Austin stepped out his front door and heard people fighting, he told the Orlando Sentinel on Thursday.

    "I heard screaming and crying for help," he said. "I heard, 'Help me.' " It was dark, and the boy did not see how the fight started, in fact, he only saw one person, a man in a red shirt — Zimmerman — who was on the ground...

    Both Zimmerman families have moved out of their homes, at least temporarily, Robert Zimmerman said, because they've received death threats.


    Reference: Orlando Sentinel
But hey, shoot first and ask questions later, right?

K.


I described what happened between the youngster and Zimmerman.

If I described it in Spanish or Dutch,would that help with your confusion?




farglebargle -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 11:58:14 AM)

Stop blaming the victim.

MARTIN DID NOTHING WRONG.

He wasn't tresspassing. He wasn't breaking and entering.

HE WAS COMING BACK FROM THE CANDY STORE WHEN HE WAS MURDERED.

Period.

Now, stop with this racist, "Blaming the Victim" shit. Just STOP SPECULATING THAT THE **INNOCENT DEAD KID** did anything wrong.

When you hear a woman is raped, do you start speculating what she did wrong?




Kirata -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 12:02:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

I described what happened between the youngster and Zimmerman.

I can see how taking your imagination as fact would make for a helluva sex life, but you shouldn't let it become a habit.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Dark rainy night,a guy in plain clothes comes up to you with a gun...

When did running away from a stranger with a gun...

How do you know Zimmerman had his gun displayed? Try to think without moving your hands. [:D]

K.




farglebargle -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 12:05:22 PM)

I don't think you can get someone to beg for their life and murder them without brandishing a firearm.

Here's the thing.

There's a kid murdered on his way back from the candy store.

And a guy holding a smoking gun standing above him.

What's the fucking issue? You hold the shooter, and he can explain his story to the jury.





masterofholly -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 12:06:59 PM)

quote:

When you hear a woman is raped, do you start speculating what she did wrong?
Many do. How often do you hear that a woman does not report an assault because she does not want her reputation, the length of her skirt or the support of her bra to be criticized?




farglebargle -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 12:09:12 PM)

quote:

How often do you hear that a woman does not report an assault because she does not want her reputation, the length of her skirt or the support of her bra to be criticized?


It may happen, but it's not acceptable. And we certainly shouldn't tolerate people promoting that abusive shit.




Real0ne -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 12:14:56 PM)

this is hilarious

you have him convicted hung and buried and none of you even know the facts yet LMAO

now thats justice!

I better stop bitching about the courts and start bitching about the people!




DaddySatyr -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 12:16:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: masterofholly

quote:

When you hear a woman is raped, do you start speculating what she did wrong?
Many do. How often do you hear that a woman does not report an assault because she does not want her reputation, the length of her skirt or the support of her bra to be criticized?


I certainly don't but how many times, right here on these forums, have we seen horror stories from ladies that failed to take proper security precautions? I'm not saying that is an excuse for rape. Hell no. I am saying that people do things they know or should know to be dangerous/foolish/risky (take your pick)

My first post in the other thread about this subject, I "faulted" Zimmerman for getting out of the car after the dispatcher told him not to.

I re-thought that and I'm not sure that he was required to. I'm not sure because I haven't read the Florida law or the "charter" of the block watch association of which he was a member.

But, as more facts come out about this case, I think anyone that sees it as "cut-and-dried" is fooling themselves. I think to some degree, they're coming from a place of prejudice. Not racial prejudice but prejudice against people that carry guns (as is their right in Florida) or prejudice against black youths in hoodies.

We haven't got anywhere near all the information and, in the end, as one poster has been saying rather consistently: None of us was there. The eyewitness accounts (as always happens) are conflicting. Some support that Zimmerman was gettin' his ass whooped and some don't. Some say he was brandishing his weapon and some don't. We don't know for sure what happened.

A rush to judgement is not a good thing, especially in a situation where one youth and family has already suffered a tragic loss of life and another youth and family may, if that rush is given fuel.



Peace and comfort,



Michael




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