RE: Stand your ground (Full Version)

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Edwynn -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 4:24:24 PM)


Are you daft?






Edwynn -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 4:26:00 PM)


The initiation, by any thinking person's mind, was by the action of pursuit by a non-LEO stranger.

If someone initiates action by display of hostile intent (as being the indisputable instance here, no badge or any sign of authority from a wacko), the recipient's response thereupon has not heretofore been considered as 'initiating' anything.

All the make-it-up-as-you-go-along twisting of logic is not going to change that.






farglebargle -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 4:27:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


And as much crap as the Sanford Police are, it is actually the local DA that is responsible for there being no arrest yet, even with or even especially because any 'stand your ground' defense by Zimmerman would be more forcefully counteracted by no less presumption of 'standing your ground' on the part of Martin.

If we are going to make presumption, as the police and the local DA apparently are regarding Zimmerman and his story, let's just carry it through to Martin's cause for legal 'stand your ground' regarding whatever action he might have pursued in response to a real threat.  

To reiterate: Martin was no threat to Zimmerman or anyone else in the community, at the outset. Zimmerman presented himself as a threat to Martin. The exact details of initial confrontation are not needed to understand that there was somebody being followed and then accosted by a conspicuously non-LEO strange person. Even by Florida law, there is hardly any action taken as response to real threat (being followed by a complete stranger here) as such response might be taken by Zimmerman as 'self defense.'

The right of the aggressor to defend himself as response to response to his aggression will likely not play well in civil court, tough ta tas, Sanford police and Sanford DA.



If the Police don't file a felony information, for say, manslaughter, the DA has nothing to work with UNTIL the Grand Jury returns an indictment. ALL felony prosecution are by information or indictment.

Of course, the question of, "Since I know enough facts to justify action on a manslaughter charge, can *I* file the Felony Information with the court", is still being debated.




Real0ne -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 4:37:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


Nice try, but the only people making any presumptions are the ones screaming murder.

K.



Well, there's that dead kid lying on the ground. And Zimmerman, with no legal authority, standing over his lifeless body holding a literally smoking gun.. What part ISN'T murder?

If Zimmerman has a defense, he can tell it to a jury. Until then, like every other alleged murderer, he can make his case for bail.




damn all the drama queens pump it up!

this is complete and utter horseshit.

If zimmerman was on the ground chances are that there was a fight before the lead started flying and what would someone do if they were losing that fight and the kid who was whomping their ass went for the undrann gun?

Hmmm?

Then if the kid as many kids today are thinks that he wont shoot and continues to attack him?

Hmmm?

all these fucking newspaper armchair detectives tried and hung without a trial and they are the same people crying about gitmo! LOL

Seriously fucked up picture, well any cop that has had a run in with the news agencies will let you know they notorious for creating guilt and innocence regardless of reality.

hang the bitch ask questions later!

Its the american way! yes it is! fuck yeh! git it!





farglebargle -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 5:06:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

If zimmerman was on the ground chances are that there was a fight before the lead started flying and what would someone do if they were losing that fight and the kid who was whomping their ass went for the undrann gun?



Well, since Zimmerman is on record as chasing the kid down, Zimmerman would have to make his intention to retreat known, retreat, be prevented from retreating, and suffer great bodily harm, which -- if you don't even need to have an EMT look you over -- wasn't a possibility.

Zimmerman cannot meet the statutory requirement for self-defense. So, he's chargeable for manslaughter. Class 2 felony.

So, why exactly is the shooter in a felony manslaughter case not being held for arraignment?

Everything else is irrelevant.




farglebargle -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 5:19:43 PM)

Which, since Trayvon Martin was completely innocent of any wrongdoing, is completely irrelevant.




Edwynn -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 5:20:14 PM)


You are missing out here, regarding RealOne.

The Queen of England had Tayvon shot by an agent of the Crown, because it somehow suited their reptilian alien world domination banking interests, and then had the patsy Zimmerman brought up on bogus charges to cover for their crime.

OK, Zimmerman not brought to anything yet, but let's just go with the flow here.






farglebargle -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 5:23:37 PM)

don't you realize Popeye's is a front for the Vatican?!? IT'S EVEN CALLED POPE YES!!!1!




Owner59 -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 5:33:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
There`s a lot of punk-assed douche-bags out there that equate having a gun with having power and sway.

Well, he is hispanic...


Yep. No racism there. Completely ignorant.

He was making a joke.......unlike rush.......[:D]




Edwynn -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 5:33:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
don't you realize Popeye's is a front for the Vatican?!?



That is disgusting.

I never realized that eating Popeye's chicken was actually eating the young of sacrificial Catholic ceremony.

Well, we knew they had to sell that stuff somewhere.


PS

We also know that the Queen is Domme to the sub Pope, along with the rest of the world, and has a scribe reading the Talmud to him and another reading the Quran to him (she likes to keep up on the latest) as she pegs him at least 3-4 times a year.

Why deny it, people?






Real0ne -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 6:18:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn


You are missing out here, regarding RealOne.

The Queen of England had Tayvon shot by an agent of the Crown, because it somehow suited their reptilian alien world domination banking interests, and then had the patsy Zimmerman brought up on bogus charges to cover for their crime.

OK, Zimmerman not brought to anything yet, but let's just go with the flow here.






you can stop making shit up anytime




Real0ne -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 6:20:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Which, since Trayvon Martin was completely innocent of any wrongdoing, is completely irrelevant.



you were not there and yo uhave no clue which if any witnesses are reliable or if you even have 1/10th the story.

typical over simplification the posters are so famous for here

if it were that cut and dry he would already be in custody









Edwynn -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 6:26:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
You are missing out here, regarding RealOne.


you can stop making shit up anytime




You could choose to refrain from disrupting every good thread by your inane intrusion anytime.






farglebargle -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 6:34:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Which, since Trayvon Martin was completely innocent of any wrongdoing, is completely irrelevant.


you were not there and yo uhave no clue which if any witnesses are reliable or if you even have 1/10th the story.



BY DEFINITION, since Trayvon Martin is deceased, HE CAN NEVER BE CHARGED WITH, NOR CONVICTED OF ANY CRIME.

So stop trying to "blame the victim" who was LITERALLY COMING HOME FROM THE CANDY STORE.

George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin. Do you dispute that?

Is your problem that some people want charges of Murder One, and others see it more as manslaughter, defined in Florida as "The killing of a human being without lawful justification"?

Or do you think that George Zimmerman shouldn't have to make his AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE of self-defense at trial?






Real0ne -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 6:38:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Which, since Trayvon Martin was completely innocent of any wrongdoing, is completely irrelevant.


you were not there and yo uhave no clue which if any witnesses are reliable or if you even have 1/10th the story.



BY DEFINITION, since Trayvon Martin is deceased, HE CAN NEVER BE CHARGED WITH, NOR CONVICTED OF ANY CRIME.

So stop trying to "blame the victim" who was LITERALLY COMING HOME FROM THE CANDY STORE.

George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin. Do you dispute that?

Is your problem that some people want charges of Murder One, and others see it more as manslaughter, defined in Florida as "The killing of a human being without lawful justification"?

Or do you think that George Zimmerman shouldn't have to make his AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE of self-defense at trial?






I am not ready to jump on your lets hang the crazy mexican bastard band wagon until a grand jury looks at the case.

there is such a thing called "due process of law".

not edwyin and farges hang em first ask questions later lynch mob justice




Real0ne -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 6:41:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
You are missing out here, regarding RealOne.


you can stop making shit up anytime




You could choose to refrain from disrupting every good thread by your inane intrusion anytime.






I thought this was a joke?

Just goes to show people through out the ages do not change




farglebargle -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 6:49:05 PM)

lol... Talk about a cop out...

Now you wanna be all "Wait for the grand jury?", as if you're somehow incompetent to judge the available evidence by yourself, and prepare your own Felony Information. Sheesh.

7.7 MANSLAUGHTER

§ 782.07, Fla. Stat.

To prove the crime of Manslaughter, the State must prove the following two elements beyond a reasonable doubt:

1. TRAYVON MARTIN is dead.


2. a. (Defendant) intentionally committed an act or acts that caused the death of (victim).
OR
2. c. The death of (victim) was caused by the culpable negligence of (defendant).

The defendant cannot be guilty of manslaughter by committing a merely negligent act or if the killing was either justifiable or excusable homicide:

Negligence:
Each of us has a duty to act reasonably toward others. If there is a violation of that duty, without any conscious intention to harm, that violation is negligence.

Justifiable Homicide:
The killing of a human being is justifiable homicide and lawful if necessarily done while resisting an attempt to murder or commit a felony upon the defendant, or to commit a felony in any dwelling house in which the defendant was at the time of the killing.  § 782.02, Fla. Stat.

Excusable Homicide:
The killing of a human being is excusable, and therefore lawful, under any one of the following three circumstances:

1. When the killing is committed by accident and misfortune in doing any lawful act by lawful means with usual ordinary caution and without any unlawful intent, or

2. When the killing occurs by accident and misfortune in the heat of passion, upon any sudden and sufficient provocation, or

§ 782.03, Fla. Stat.

In order to convict of manslaughter by act, it is not necessary for the State to prove that the defendant had an intent to cause death, only an intent to commit an act that was not merely negligent, justified, or excusable and which caused death.

I will now define “culpable negligence” for you. Each of us has a duty to act reasonably toward others. If there is a violation of that duty, without any conscious intention to harm, that violation is negligence. But culpable negligence is more than a failure to use ordinary care toward others. In order for negligence to be culpable, it must be gross and flagrant. Culpable negligence is a course of conduct showing reckless disregard of human life, or of the safety of persons exposed to its dangerous effects, or such an entire want of care as to raise a presumption of a conscious indifference to consequences, or which shows wantonness or recklessness, or a grossly careless disregard for the safety and welfare of the public, or such an indifference to the rights of others as is equivalent to an intentional violation of such rights.

The negligent act or omission must have been committed with an utter disregard for the safety of others. Culpable negligence is consciously doing an act or following a course of conduct that the defendant must have known, or reasonably should have known, was likely to cause death or great bodily injury.

§ 782.07(2)-(4), Fla. Stat. Enhanced penalty if 2c alleged and proved. Give a, b, or c, as applicable.
If you find the defendant guilty of manslaughter, you must then determine whether the State has further proved beyond a reasonable doubt that:

Lesser Included Offenses

MANSLAUGHTER ‑ 782.07
Aggravated assault784.0218.2 Battery 784.038.3 Assault784.0118.1 Culpable negligence784.058.9




Real0ne -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 7:00:00 PM)

you didnt even bother to say where he was shot in this thread.

judge;
the man was trespassing, in a gated community, on private property, and as the accepted head of the community watch group of which I have an immaculate pristine record, I approached the man while he was on said private property to investigate what purpose he was trespassing, he attacked me, he went for my gun, we fought over it and it went off accidentally while trying take it from me.




farglebargle -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 7:14:43 PM)

quote:

the man was trespassing, in a gated community, on private property,


Martin wasn't trespassing. Martin was returning to the residence where he was an invited guest following a trip to the candy store.

quote:


and as the accepted head of the community watch group of which I have an immaculate pristine record,


Ok, now you're putting us on. Given that Zimmerman's got an assault charge against a cop and a domestic violence rap on his record, and he's the sole member of the "FOREVER ALONE NEIGHBORHOOD WATCH", again, the Judge is going to start thinking about if this person is mentally competent to stand trial for manslaughter.

#1 Rule in Court: DO NOT LIE TO THE JUDGE! Especially if he has a copy of your supposedly 'sealed' records in front of him.

quote:


I approached the man while he was on said private property to investigate what purpose he was trespassing,


Let's hear what your legal authority is to stop and question people going about their lawful business.

quote:


he attacked me, he went for my gun, we fought over it and it went off accidentally while trying take it from me. No I did not drawn my weapon.


The guy who brings the gun is responsible for whatever happens with it. Unless it's a lawful killing. Which this isn't. Since Zimmerman provoked the incident, he is EXPRESSLY exempt from the stand-your-ground law, and then it's back to the determination of the risk of great bodily harm.

WHICH IS FOR THE JURY TO DECIDE. see Zellars v. State, 707 So.2d 345, 346 (Fla. 5th DCA 1998), And of course, Coronado: "Great bodily harm defines itself and means great as distinguished from slight, trivial, minor, or moderate harm, and as such does not include mere bruises as are likely to be inflicted in a simple assault and battery... . Whether the evidence describing such harm or injury is within the meaning of the statute ... is generally a question of fact for the jury."



AND if Zimmerman REALLY thinks he has a defense, he can explain it to the jury.

You know. Like we do in America.




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Stand your ground (3/21/2012 7:34:21 PM)

Well, I actually agree with RealOne on something. Congratulations Universe, you win
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


you were not there and yo uhave no clue which if any witnesses are reliable or if you even have 1/10th the story.



BY DEFINITION, since Trayvon Martin is deceased, HE CAN NEVER BE CHARGED WITH, NOR CONVICTED OF ANY CRIME.

So stop trying to "blame the victim" who was LITERALLY COMING HOME FROM THE CANDY STORE.

George Zimmerman shot and killed Trayvon Martin. Do you dispute that?

Is your problem that some people want charges of Murder One, and others see it more as manslaughter, defined in Florida as "The killing of a human being without lawful justification"?

Or do you think that George Zimmerman shouldn't have to make his AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE of self-defense at trial?






I am not ready to jump on your lets hang the crazy mexican bastard band wagon until a grand jury looks at the case.

there is such a thing called "due process of law".

not edwyin and farges hang em first ask questions later lynch mob justice




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