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RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your ... - 3/29/2012 3:39:36 PM   
LafayetteLady


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

not lending their support to an extremist organization that promotes gun violence.

Characterizing the NRA as an "extremist organization that promotes gun violence" is anti-gun wing-nuttery. The NRA promotes responsible gun ownership.

The law in question states (bold added) ...
    776.012 Use of force in defense of person— A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:
      (1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
      (2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

What exactly is objectionable about that?

K.


As with most laws that fail, it isn't the wording, but when the law is put into practice.  I am surprised and disappointed that you seem to be unable to recognize that.

And I agree, the NRA claims to be supporting responsible gun ownership, however, like many other organizations (pro-life, PETA) they will often go to unrealistic extremes to promote their agenda.  And yes, the NRA would like to see every person in this nation have the right to carry a side arm at all times.

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RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your ... - 3/29/2012 3:41:29 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		You need to remember and realize that these gun control groups also promote having laws enacted for technology regarding gun control that doesn't yet exist.

Essentially, when it comes to gun control and the right to bear arms, neither side is acting responsibly.

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RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your ... - 3/29/2012 3:42:46 PM   
hardcybermaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

More specifically, the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun violence has stated that, as a result of the NRA's lobbying, gun crime has "soared"

Gun crime continues to decrease, despite increase in gun sales

The FBI recently released its Crime in The United States statistics for 2010. Overall, murders in the U.S. have decreased steadily since 2006, dropping from 15,087 to 12,996. Firearms murders — which made up 67 percent of all murders in the U.S. in 2010 — have followed this trend, decreasing by 14 percent.

At the same time that firearms murders were dropping, gun sales were surging. In 2009, FBI background checks for guns increased by 30 percent over the previous year, while firearms sales in large retail outlets increased by almost 40 percent. The number of applications for concealed carry permits jumped across the country as well.

K.

the population of England is about 51m, of the US about 310m so you would imagine we would have about 1/6th of deaths due to guns.
Well you killed 13000 people, we managed a staggering 619, approx 1/22th of the number. But hey guns are cool right?
Idiots

< Message edited by hardcybermaster -- 3/29/2012 3:44:29 PM >

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RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your ... - 3/29/2012 3:49:52 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

As with most laws that fail, it isn't the wording, but when the law is put into practice. I am surprised and disappointed that you seem to be unable to recognize that.

Well, I can understand criticizing prosecutors for not being diligent in determing that there was a valid basis for "reasonable belief," for example. But are you saying that the law is flawed for not requiring that? If we need to enact a law to force public servants to do what they're being paid to do, we've got a bigger problem than semantics.

K.

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RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your ... - 3/29/2012 3:54:20 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

the population of England is about 51m, of the US about 310m so you would imagine we would have about 1/6th of deaths due to guns.
Well you killed 13000 people, we managed a staggering 619, approx 1/22th of the number. But hey guns are cool right?
Idiots


Yeah, actually, guns are cool. Hey, btw, what are your other crime statistics? Being such a peaceful, unarmed, people I'm sure your other crime stats are just as impressive.


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“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

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RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your ... - 3/29/2012 3:59:01 PM   
hardcybermaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

the population of England is about 51m, of the US about 310m so you would imagine we would have about 1/6th of deaths due to guns.
Well you killed 13000 people, we managed a staggering 619, approx 1/22th of the number. But hey guns are cool right?
Idiots


Yeah, actually, guns are cool. Hey, btw, what are your other crime statistics? Being such a peaceful, unarmed, people I'm sure your other crime stats are just as impressive.


really can't be arsed to look that stuff up but I am sure they are not as bad as yours, but this thread is about guns isn't it? Anyway most stuff that can happen to you has got to be better than being DEAD, surely?

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RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your ... - 3/29/2012 4:09:26 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline 		That isn't what I am saying at all.  I'm saying that often, while the concept and theory of the good a law will do, when put in practice becomes problematic.  This particular law creates more work for district attorneys.  There are more than enough laws on the books to allow people to defend themselves and their property.  This particular law does nothing but create a potential defense when there shouldn't be one. 

As the law is written, anyone can say they felt in danger for their life and acted accordingly.  Considering in nearly every circumstance where this defense will be used, the other person will not be able to present their side (since they will be dead), can't you see how it creates a problem?

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RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your ... - 3/29/2012 4:09:54 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

really can't be arsed to look that stuff up but I am sure they are not as bad as yours, but this thread is about guns isn't it? Anyway most stuff that can happen to you has got to be better than being DEAD, surely?


Yeah, being sheared like sheep is not as bad as being dead and lamb chops.

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to hardcybermaster)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your ... - 3/29/2012 4:12:22 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

As the law is written, anyone can say they felt in danger for their life and acted accordingly. 


Cops do that all the time.


_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your ... - 3/29/2012 4:16:28 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

really can't be arsed to look that stuff up but I am sure they are not as bad as yours, but this thread is about guns isn't it? Anyway most stuff that can happen to you has got to be better than being DEAD, surely?


Yeah, being sheared like sheep is not as bad as being dead and lamb chops.


Ya, I'd take robbery over death.

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RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your ... - 3/29/2012 4:18:10 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

Idiots

Well lets see just who the idiot is here...
    International evidence and comparisons have long been offered as proof of the mantra that more guns mean more deaths and that fewer guns, therefore, mean fewer deaths... There is a compound assertion that (a) guns are uniquely available in the United States compared with other modern developed nations, which is why (b) the United States has by far the highest murder rate. Though these assertions have been endlessly repeated, statement (b) is, in fact, false and statement (a) is substantially so...

    While American gun ownership is quite high, Table 1 shows many other developed nations (e.g., Norway, Finland, Germany, France, Denmark) with high rates of gun ownership. These countries, however, have murder rates as low or lower than many developed nations in which gun ownership is much rarer. For example, Luxembourg, where handguns are totally banned and ownership of any kind of gun is minimal, had a murder rate nine times higher than Germany in 2002...

    The non-correlation between gun ownership and murder is reinforced by examination of statistics from larger numbers of nations across the developed world. Comparison of "homicide and suicide mortality data for thirty-six nations (including the United States) for the period 1990 - 1995" to gun ownership levels showed "no significant (at the 5% level) association between gun ownership levels and the total homicide rate." Consistent with this is a later European study of data from 21 nations in which "no significant correlations [of gun ownership levels] with total suicide or homicide rates were found."
So is this going to be a religion thread?

Reference: Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy, Vol. 30, No. 2

K.

(in reply to hardcybermaster)
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RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your ... - 3/29/2012 4:19:15 PM   
Yachtie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

really can't be arsed to look that stuff up but I am sure they are not as bad as yours, but this thread is about guns isn't it? Anyway most stuff that can happen to you has got to be better than being DEAD, surely?


Yeah, being sheared like sheep is not as bad as being dead and lamb chops.


Ya, I'd take robbery over death.


I'd rather kill the fucker with a .45 hollow point. Save other future victims their grief too. It's a win-win.

Otherwise, the robber (or whatever) is the only winner.

< Message edited by Yachtie -- 3/29/2012 4:31:33 PM >

_____________________________

“We all know it’s going to end badly, but in the meantime we can make some money.” - Jim Cramer, CNBC

“Those who ‘abjure’ violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.” - George Orwell

(in reply to kalikshama)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your ... - 3/29/2012 4:20:54 PM   
hardcybermaster


Posts: 904
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yachtie


quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

really can't be arsed to look that stuff up but I am sure they are not as bad as yours, but this thread is about guns isn't it? Anyway most stuff that can happen to you has got to be better than being DEAD, surely?


Yeah, being sheared like sheep is not as bad as being dead and lamb chops.

what?
been digging and you are 4 times more likely to die a violent death in the good old US than you are over here, so don't worry I won't be over anytime soon.... smiley face etc

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RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your ... - 3/29/2012 4:27:34 PM   
hardcybermaster


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Joined: 10/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

Idiots

Well lets see just who the idiot is here...
    International evidence and comparisons have long been offered as proof of the mantra that more guns mean more deaths and that fewer guns, therefore, mean fewer deaths... There is a compound assertion that (a) guns are uniquely available in the United States compared with other modern developed nations, which is why (b) the United States has by far the highest murder rate. Though these assertions have been endlessly repeated, statement (b) is, in fact, false and statement (a) is substantially so...

    While American gun ownership is quite high, Table 1 shows many other developed nations (e.g., Norway, Finland, Germany, France, Denmark) with high rates of gun ownership. These countries, however, have murder rates as low or lower than many developed nations in which gun ownership is much rarer. For example, Luxembourg, where handguns are totally banned and ownership of any kind of gun is minimal, had a murder rate nine times higher than Germany in 2002...

    The non-correlation between gun ownership and murder is reinforced by examination of statistics from larger numbers of nations across the developed world. Comparison of "homicide and suicide mortality data for thirty-six nations (including the United States) for the period 1990 - 1995" to gun ownership levels showed "no significant (at the 5% level) association between gun ownership levels and the total homicide rate." Consistent with this is a later European study of data from 21 nations in which "no significant correlations [of gun ownership levels] with total suicide or homicide rates were found."
So is this going to be a religion thread?

Reference: Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy, Vol. 30, No. 2

K.

that'll be an american study with some stats being over 20 years old, thanks

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RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your ... - 3/29/2012 4:44:11 PM   
MrBukani


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Status: offline 		http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate
Luxembourgh
You mean that little citystate next to belgium where it is easy to buy guns.
No Bias at all by the old boys from Harvard of course.

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RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your ... - 3/29/2012 4:51:33 PM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

I'm saying that often, while the concept and theory of the good a law will do, when put in practice becomes problematic. This particular law creates more work for district attorneys...

As the law is written, anyone can say they felt in danger for their life and acted accordingly. Considering in nearly every circumstance where this defense will be used, the other person will not be able to present their side (since they will be dead), can't you see how it creates a problem?

Well, "nearly every circumstance" overstates the case. The ratio of (non-accidental) non-fatal to fatal gunshot injuries ranges from 3:1 to 5:1 depending on what source you consult. And the fact that a good law makes more work for district attorneys doesn't strike me as a powerful argument against it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

There are more than enough laws on the books to allow people to defend themselves and their property. This particular law does nothing but create a potential defense when there shouldn't be one.

I don't understand what you mean by saying that it creates a defense where there shouldn't be one. My reaction to that is, of course there should! I'm not an attorney (I suppose that's obvious) but, from what I've read about what people who have defended themselves have been put through after the fact, the absence of such a law seems to leave someone having to prove their innocence. That's just fundamentally wrong.

K.

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RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your ... - 3/29/2012 4:53:53 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

that'll be an american study with some stats being over 20 years old, thanks

Do you have a problem with "american" studies, or do you think human beings were re-invented recently and are different now?

K.

(in reply to hardcybermaster)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your ... - 3/29/2012 4:58:18 PM   
hardcybermaster


Posts: 904
Joined: 10/6/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

that'll be an american study with some stats being over 20 years old, thanks

Do you have a problem with "american" studies, or do you think human beings were re-invented recently and are different now?

K.

so a study done by americans about gun crime could never have any kind of conflict of interest? nothing about crime has changed in 20 years?


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RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your ... - 3/29/2012 4:59:28 PM   
lovmuffin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

quote:

Charlton Heston.


God damn you! God Damn you all to hell!

Whatever quibbles I may have with the (departed) man, he will always rank high in my book just for that scene.

Oh he was a fine actor.
I just found the spectacle of the man who'd had an album by one of America's outiest gun owners yanked by its record company blathering all this gun lobby stuff a bit feeble.





Charlton Heston once said, "If your avatar ever shows up at my door in the middle of the night, I'll shoot it".

< Message edited by lovmuffin -- 3/29/2012 5:00:32 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Petition: Tell Prison Fellowship: "Stand Your ... - 3/29/2012 5:12:21 PM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		NRA Representatives Visit Harvard Campus

Students at the event, most of whom supported the NRA, said they were pleased to see the program come to campus.

Now who pays for all that research hmmm

The NRA At Harvard Law

'Is the NRA paying mainstream reporters by the hour?'

The overall result is that gun-related research has been stifled. The gun lobby is quick to cite a 2004 National Academy of Sciences (NAS) report, claiming it found that gun violence prevention laws have no positive effect. In truth, the report concluded that the effectiveness of gun laws can’t be evaluated yet because there simply isn’t a sufficient quantity or quality of data to make such a determination

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 3/29/2012 5:26:26 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 40
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