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RE: COCKsuckin is unChristian - 4/10/2012 12:31:06 PM

hlen5

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Then those pervy Bible boys, too.

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RE: COCKsuckin is unChristian - 4/10/2012 1:04:05 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

Then those pervy Bible boys, too.

Hell, yes.

You've no idea.

As far as pervy goes, those boys are the closest I come to competition.

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al-Aswad.

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RE: COCKsuckin is unChristian - 4/10/2012 2:37:36 PM

Lucylastic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

I guess maleubs are cool, it doesn't say anything about a woman doing a guy with a strapon either.

dont be dissin us strapon male sub lovers dooooood

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RE: COCKsuckin is unChristian - 4/10/2012 4:50:49 PM

SoftBonds

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You know, I just realized. I don't mind if cocksucking is unChristian. Just means that every guy who likes getting, and every guy and gal who likes giving, has a reason to look for a more tolerant religion. Works for me!!!

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RE: COCKsuckin is unChristian - 4/10/2012 5:50:46 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
I think the apologetics argument is much better than the revisionist one here: there is absolutely no historical or Biblical account of a homosexual actually being put to death or otherwise punished, it doesn't seem to have actually ever happened.

WTF you can't be serious, not only has it happened, it is happening right now *cough*Uganda*cough*

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RE: COCKsuckin is unChristian - 4/11/2012 11:33:30 AM

xssve

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The is not any huge body of historical evidence of the persecution of gays for being gay until probably the Eighteenth century, and mostly in the Nineteenth, Oscar Wilde, the big Masturbation scare, etc.

Homosexuality has always had it's critics, but the violent persecution of homosexuals, is largely a Nineteenth and Twentieth century phenomena.

There is virtually no mention of it anywhere else before that period, there is no mention of it in the bible, or any other extant texts of the time, about the only place it's mentioned before the late Eighteenth century was w/regard to the Bogomils, the Cathars, and the Knights Templar who were all persecuted as a group for heresy of challenging the authority of the Catholic church, and sodomy was listed among the charges, though not the primary reason for the suppression of these groups.

The violence against homosexuals in Uganda is in large part due to American Missionaries, in fact a Ugandan gay group is current;y suing an American missionary for inciting anti-gay violence: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-17387887

i.e., it's "historical", but it's modern history, 20th century, and we're talking about the classical age, or more precisely, late paleolithic, bronze, and early Iron ages, where there is no record of any organized persecution of homosexuals, some grousing, but no pogroms.

Violence of all kinds is epidemic in Uganda, BTW, the Idi Amin, Museveni, the LRA, etc., nobody is really safe, but historically the most persecuted group of all in Uganda have been the pygmies, who weren't considered human, they were considered animals, and were hunted and eaten when they could be found, they've been historically considered "bushmeat". There was no tradition there of violence against homosexuals until the spread of Christianity, and it's still not "traditional" in any sense of the word, it's a recent development.

The only place worse was probably the Central African Republic (CAR), where President for life Bokassa was infamous for his steady diet of pubescent schoolgirls.

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RE: COCKsuckin is unChristian - 4/11/2012 1:46:16 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
I think the apologetics argument is much better than the revisionist one here: there is absolutely no historical or Biblical account of a homosexual actually being put to death or otherwise punished, it doesn't seem to have actually ever happened.

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
The is not any huge body of historical evidence of the persecution of gays for being gay until probably the Eighteenth century, and mostly in the Nineteenth, Oscar Wilde, the big Masturbation scare, etc.

Homosexuality has always had it's critics, but the violent persecution of homosexuals, is largely a Nineteenth and Twentieth century phenomena.

There is virtually no mention of it anywhere else before that period, there is no mention of it in the bible, or any other extant texts of the time, about the only place it's mentioned before the late Eighteenth century was w/regard to the Bogomils, the Cathars, and the Knights Templar who were all persecuted as a group for heresy of challenging the authority of the Catholic church, and sodomy was listed among the charges, though not the primary reason for the suppression of these groups.

OK so we've got some back peddling here let's see if we can keep that up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Christianity_and_homosexuality#Early_Christianity
In the year 342, the Christian emperors Constantius II and Constans declared the death penalty for a male who aped the role of a bride.[7] In the year 390, the Christian emperors Valentinian II, Theodosius I and Arcadius denounced males "acting the part of a woman", condemning those who were guilty of such acts to be publicly burned.[8] The Christian emperor Justinian (527–565) made those who would now be called "homosexuals" a scape goat for problems such as "famines, earthquakes, and pestilences."[9]

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RE: COCKsuckin is unChristian - 4/11/2012 5:43:56 PM

xssve

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So Christians murder homosexuals, Roman emperors murdered people for a lot of reasons, I don't see why they would spare homosexuals, before that, they killed Christians, pretty much any excuse worked for them, it's hard to say they harbored any special hatred for homosexuals, there were no mass execution before they became Christian - isn't that sort of the argument here, that Christians hate homosexuals?

There were probably homosexuals killed in the inquisitions too, but for the most part they were collateral damage

Sustained, violent homophobia, as a culture wide phenomena, as I say, does not appear until the Nineteenth century.

How many did the Jews, who wrote that shit to begin with kill? Show me one instance.

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RE: COCKsuckin is unChristian - 4/11/2012 5:59:48 PM

xssve

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Here's the thing about homosexuals: they're easy targets, nobody want's to defend them because they're weird - just like the mentally ill and the developmentally disabled, who are persecuted as much if not more than homosexuals - in fact homosexuality was defined as a mental illness to begin with, probably largely because it made it easier to persecute them formally - they could be locked up, starved, beaten, given electroshock, etc.

People are fucking animals, that's all it is - "the norm" is the way people act when they're afraid to act any other way.

Christians aren't afraid of homosexuals, they're afraid their neighbors will accuse them of being homosexual, they're afraid of each other.

That's what homophobia is: it's fear that people will think you're gay, based on an even deeper fear that maybe you are a little bit.

< Message edited by xssve -- 4/11/2012 6:05:09 PM >

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RE: COCKsuckin is unChristian - 4/12/2012 9:59:03 AM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
...isn't that sort of the argument here, that Christians hate homosexuals?

I think the argument is that the Bible's condemnation of "unnatural" sexual acts combined with an extremely poor understanding of the natural world has led to a great deal of sex negativity.

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RE: COCKsuckin is unChristian - 4/12/2012 10:22:40 AM

SoftBonds

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
...isn't that sort of the argument here, that Christians hate homosexuals?

I think the argument is that the Bible's condemnation of "unnatural" sexual acts combined with an extremely poor understanding of the natural world has led to a great deal of sex negativity.

Not a fan of "unnatural," as a criteria.
Sex is natural
Goats are natural
latex condoms are unnatural
Plastic dildos are unnatural
fleshlights are unnatural
I'd rather have folks having sex with dildos and fleshlights, and using condoms, than having sex with goats, even though goats are clearly natural (they are found in nature right???)

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RE: COCKsuckin is unChristian - 4/12/2012 10:34:54 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
Sustained, violent homophobia, as a culture wide phenomena, as I say, does not appear until the Nineteenth century.

Tell that to the Russians: they were killing nearly as many gays as jews up until the eighteenth century.
(I don't think the execution of homosexuals is a new development in the middle east, either, come to that...)

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RE: COCKsuckin is unChristian - 4/12/2012 7:24:06 PM

xssve

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I think you'll find that 9 times out of 10 there are economic motivations involved, just like the witch hunts: typically, the victims property is split between the accuser and the authorities, and pogroms were a widespread phenomena all across Eurasia up to the 18th century.

Easy targets I tell ya, you can include women in that too.

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RE: COCKsuckin is unChristian - 4/13/2012 11:12:50 AM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

I think you'll find that 9 times out of 10 there are economic motivations involved....

You think.... In other words you don't know. So why are you taking this position? Do you have any research to back it up?

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RE: COCKsuckin is unChristian - 4/13/2012 11:28:25 AM

GotSteel

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xssve, where are you getting this idea from? I'm completely baffled by your position, can you cite some credible research that takes this position or something? I've shown you that homosexuality was turned into a capital crime in the very early days of the Holy Roman Empire. I can show continued violent oppression from there:

quote:

ORIGINAL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Spain
The evolution from the Roman sexuality, where the sexual act and power relationships engendered were more important, to the modern concept of homosexuality as a type of sexuality and even lifestyle, was determined and modified by many factors. One of the main ones has been the influence of Christianity, which characterized sexuality as an act whose only goal was procreation, so that the other sexual activities were seen as sinful and contrary to God's wishes. This would be reflected in the legislation of the time, where sodomy was identified with State treason and punished harshly with death by fire.

When Martin Luther split off and formed Protestantism I've shown you that he continued to preach hatred and loathing for homosexuals, how can you deny that this violent oppression has been present and widespread in christian civilization through most of it's history?

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RE: COCKsuckin is unChristian - 4/13/2012 12:30:12 PM

xssve

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The Holy Roman, the Holy Roman, we were talking about the classical period, or at least I was, including the Jews who wrote fucking Leviticus - once you're talking the Holy Roman Empire, the Classical period is over.

There's shitloads of persecution in the Middle ages, they may have started with gays, but they had a lot of other irons in the fire, so to speak, to the extent that homosexuals are kind of a drop in the bucket of women, witches, Jews, Moors, Muslims, Bogomils, Cathars, Protestants of all description, etc., etc. - heretics, broadly speaking, meaning anybody doing anything outside the bounds of Catholic Dogma, which mostly likely did include homosexuals, although the dogma on the subject appears to have resulted from some pronouncement concerning gods Judgment of Sodom that turned out to be a forgery.

So, I'm fairly certain homosexuals were most likely persecuted along with everybody else, but they aren't singled out to the exclusion of all others again till the Nineteenth century when they'd run out of other people to kill, or it had become unfashionable to do so (in fact, they'd shifted to indigenous peoples of all variety, and this is known as the Colonial Era).

But before that - what?

< Message edited by xssve -- 4/13/2012 12:35:53 PM >

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RE: COCKsuckin is unChristian - 4/13/2012 1:24:17 PM

Moonhead

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quote:

The is not any huge body of historical evidence of the persecution of gays for being gay until probably the Eighteenth century, and mostly in the Nineteenth, Oscar Wilde, the big Masturbation scare, etc.

So you're admitting this is incorrect, then?

Also, trying to argue that there were no religions persecuting gays in the middle ages besides the catholics is nonsense: the Greek orthodox church used to take a line on homosexuals that makes the shi'ite theocracy in Iran look progressive and tolerant...

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RE: COCKsuckin is unChristian - 4/13/2012 2:17:53 PM

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I've studied a lot of history but never really came across a conviction and execution purely based on homosexuality in the middle ages.
The Templars were accused of it, but in xssve's defense they were accused of many things. And from what I have read about the charges against the Templars is that they were pretty standard for that time. It certainly was no focus in the Templar case that they were charged with sodomy.
I think nobody was openly gay during the middle ages. We suspect Leonardo Da Vinci of being gay, so at that time he might have been suspect. Never a charge made. So to counterproof xssve's statement.
Show a case where a homosexual was charged and tried only for being a homosexual in the middle ages.
Its hard to proof something is not there when its not there, init?

Oh and a little to add since the romans didnt even know the word homosexuality it is debatable where and when the term homosexual was first used.
The only biblical references are of man lying with man, so googlin it might be a little hard.
Anyway I will give it a go and google a bit.

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 4/13/2012 2:25:58 PM >

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RE: COCKsuckin is unChristian - 4/13/2012 3:04:56 PM

Moonhead

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Th term homosexual is a nineteenth century neoligism, so that's moving the goalposts a little.

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RE: COCKsuckin is unChristian - 4/13/2012 4:18:33 PM

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His views set the tone for western Christianity. Sex was permissible only within marriage and when it aimed at procreation, and only then if you did not enjoy it too much [13]. This general theme was particularized in discussions of what was allowable between married people [14]. Masturbation was out, as were anal and oral sex; all were pleasurable and did not lead to procreation. Vaginal intercourse also was permitted only in what has become called the "missionary position" and there was an extended discussion of the sinfulness of having the woman on top, of entry from behind and anal sex

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/gaymidages.asp

[53], although the Templars were accused of analingus [54]. Renaissance Florence saw prosecutions for anal sex [55}, and Ruggiero recounts the trials of a transvestite prostitute and another case in which the relationship of the two charged parties was sadomasochistic

There are numerous references to homosexual activity in literature in twelfth-century Christian France. Here the evidence of the type of sexual activity is mixed. The poetry of the homosexual bishops Baudri of Bourgueil (1046-1130) and his friend Marbod of Rennes (1035-1123) [72]

It seems there was a change in persecution after the 13th century, but remember everything changed then. The spanish inquisition started round that time too.It's a prett interesting read. And they were persecuted, but to what extend is not clear directly from this article.
Its a start.

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