RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (Full Version)

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yummee -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 6:09:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

So, you think a woman should be chained down to a table in order to get an abortion?

After all, I expect everyone here to be aware of what the word "Fetters" means, and why "UNFETTERED ACCESS" isn't an unreasonable demand, when what those who oppose it are advocating leg chains...


fettered [fet-er]  
Example Sentences Origin
fet·ter   [fet-er] Show IPA
noun
1.
a chain or shackle placed on the feet.
2.
Usually, fetters. anything that confines or restrains: Boredom puts fetters upon the imagination.

verb (used with object)
3.
to put fetters upon.
4.
to confine; restrain.

Related forms
fet·ter·er, noun
fet·ter·less, adjective
Dictionary.com Unabridged
Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2012.
Cite This Source | Link To fettered

Example Sentences
Later, he was fettered to a question he answered countless times but never resolved.
But his office is understaffed and his powers fettered.
After all, no coach in history with a playoff berth on the line approached the game with such fettered optimism.







farglebargle -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 6:12:42 PM)

quote:

noun
1.
a chain or shackle placed on the feet.
2.
Usually, fetters. anything that confines or restrains:

verb (used with object)
3.
to put fetters upon.
4.
to confine; restrain.



EXACTLY! What part of "Medical issues are private between a doctor an patient" don't you understand?

If a doctor believes it to be medically necessary, and the patient gives their informed consent, WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU TO STICK YOUR NOSE INTO SOMEONE ELSE'S BUSINESS?




yummee -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 6:27:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


EXACTLY! What part of "Medical issues are private between a doctor an patient" don't you understand?

If a doctor believes it to be medically necessary, and the patient gives their informed consent, WHO THE FUCK ARE YOU TO STICK YOUR NOSE INTO SOMEONE ELSE'S BUSINESS?


What are you talking about? Did you read what you responded to? I'm not interested in getting between a doctor and his patient. I'm not interested in sticking my nose into the above. No clue what you are raving about or why.

quote:

ORIGINAL: yummee

I'm all for that being completely up to the woman carrying. I know, for me personally, there are medical conditions I would not want to live with. Perhaps others would prefer to live in those same situations. There is no right or wrong there as far as I can tell, just personal choice. Since a fetus has no ability to choose, I believe that choice is best left in the hands of the mother or potential mother, and certainly not in the hands of faceless people who don't really give a shit about the individuals affected.




quote:

ORIGINAL: yummee

For the record, I'm one of those in the grey areas. I am not an advocate of repealing current laws. I am also not an advocate of allowing unfettered access to abortions of late term fetuses for non-medical reasons.






farglebargle -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 6:36:36 PM)

Why are you talking about opposing unfettered access to healthcare services then?




kalikshama -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 6:41:09 PM)

quote:

I am also not an advocate of allowing unfettered access to abortions of late term fetuses for non-medical reasons.


If you are defining "late" as after 21 weeks, this is almost a non-issue statistically:

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html

Eighty-eight percent of abortions occur in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy, 2006.

quote:

The majority of all abortions occur before 22 weeks. only 1.5% occur after 21 weeks. Over half occur before 9 weeks. And that was the stats for 2006.


I wonder what is the correlation to later abortions and amnio results?

"Later weeks" here appears to refer to weeks 12-20, as there is a special section for third trimester:

http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/after_12_weeks.html

Abortion after Twelve Weeks

Later Abortions

The earlier an abortion is provided the safer it is, because earlier abortions are less complicated. Therefore, it is important that women who decide to get abortions can do so without unnecessary delays. In fact, 88% of all abortions in the United States are obtained within the first 12-13 weeks after the last menstrual period (LMP). Sometimes, however, women have compelling reasons to obtain abortions in later weeks.

Undiagnosed Pregnancy

Some women do not recognize that they are pregnant until the pregnancy is well advanced. Examples might include:

- women who menstruate irregularly or not at all due to illness, medication, or strenuous athletic activity;
- women who believe their absent periods reflect the onset of menopause;
- women with normally light periods, who mistake spotting that occurs in early pregnancy for menstruation;
- women who believe they cannot become pregnant because they are nursing babies or undergoing medical treatment;
- women whose pregnancies are initially - sometimes repeatedly - misdiagnosed by physicians or other practitioners.

Medical Complications

Like anyone else in the population, pregnant women are susceptible to cancer, heart disease, diabetes, severe depression, addictions, and other serious health problems. Surgery, X-rays, chemotherapy, or other treatment vital to a woman's health or life may come to a halt once the pregnancy is discovered. A woman might choose abortion if a continued pregnancy would worsen her condition and/or threaten her life, or if she requires further treatments that may damage a developing fetus.

Severe Fetal Abnormalities

When a woman learns from the results of prenatal testing that a fetus has severe abnormalities, such as an undeveloped brain, a severe metabolic disorder, or no working kidney, she may wish to end the pregnancy rather than give birth to a child who will suffer and die in infancy or who will have severe disabilities. Unfortunately, the results of amniocentesis, one of the most important prenatal diagnostic tests, are generally not available until the 15th or 16th week of pregnancy, thus delaying the abortion decision.

Tragic Events

A pregnancy may have been planned and very much wanted - until tragedy strikes. For example, the diagnosis of some debilitating disease, a car accident, a job loss, or a natural disaster might lead a woman to decide this is the wrong time to have a baby and to choose abortion, even if the pregnancy has advanced past the first trimester.

Teens at Special Risk

Nearly one-third of all abortions after 12 weeks are obtained by teenagers. Teens face not only state regulatory hurdles, but also delays in recognizing that they are pregnant and taking decisive action. For example, they may:

- understand little about how their bodies work and therefore may not recognize signs of pregnancy;
- become pregnant before they have begun to menstruate or before their menstrual periods are regular, so they don't have the signal of a missed period;
- believe a variety of myths, such as "You can't get pregnant the first time";
- keep rape or sexual abuse a secret, denying the possibility of pregnancy.

When such young women do realize they are pregnant, they may panic, fearing their parents will never forgive them or that their parents will force them out of the house. They may hide the pregnancy in secret shame, or spend weeks wishing and hoping it isn't true, or that it will go away. Of course, when the pregnancy does not go away, the realities of the situation gradually become evident.

Another factor in teenagers' delay is that few are experienced in using the health care system. They may not know where to go for a pregnancy test, or they may fear that they cannot speak in confidence to a school counselor or nurse for assistance or a referral.

Parental Notification or Consent

Even further delays are introduced by states that require abortion providers to notify or obtain consent from a minor's parents before proceeding with an abortion. While most teens do tell a trusted adult, those faced with an abusive or absent parent are left with only two choices. They must either:

- petition a state court and convince a judge that they are competent to make this decision or that an abortion is in their best interest; or
- arrange an abortion in a state without such restrictions, raise extra money, and travel to the out-of-state facility.

Clearly either choice can tax the resources of a teenager, and can create delays that might easily push the abortion past the first trimester.

Lack of Money

In one study of women who were having an abortion at 16 or more weeks, a substantial percentage said the delay occurred because they needed time to raise money.1 Women who depend on the federal government to provide their health insurance coverage must pay for abortion services separately; they may receive Medicaid funding for other medical services, but the federal government and most states have prohibited the use of federal funds to pay for almost all abortions.

In addition, as the pregnancy advances, abortions have a higher risk of complications, require specialized skill from the physician, increased nursing care, and more medications. Therefore, they are more expensive. For a woman who has no savings, gathering enough money can take time and delay her abortion by weeks.

Physician Shortage

Most abortion providers are concentrated in large cities. Today, 88% of all counties in the U.S. have no abortion provider, and 97% of rural counties have none.

In several states, women in need of abortion care must travel hundreds of miles to reach the nearest provider. Women are often delayed many days or weeks as they arrange transportation, time off from work, and save additional money for travel and lodging costs.

Waiting Period Requirements

Some states require women to wait anywhere from 8 to 27 hours between their first appointment and when the abortion procedure can be provided. These laws can further delay the abortion. For example, a teenager may wait for a time when her absence from school will be less obvious. If a woman must schedule two separate appointments, she may face more delays as she arranges for time off work or school to make two long-distance trips.

Third Trimester Abortions

Despite the claims of some anti-abortion activists, women have access to abortion in the third trimester only in extreme circumstances. Fewer than 2% of abortions are provided at 21 weeks or after, and they are extremely rare after 26 weeks of pregnancy. Very few abortions are provided in the third trimester, and they are generally limited to cases of severe fetal abnormalities or situations when the life or health of the pregnant woman is seriously threatened.

[image]http://www.myparentingguide.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/pregnancy_duration_in_weeks_months_and_trimester-187x300.png[/image]




kalikshama -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 6:43:55 PM)

quote:

Abortions allowed but only till 12 weeks, exceptions to that for the health of the mother and for rape/incest, and for any woman who is prevented from getting an abortion by 12 weeks because of state action or protesters (e.g. Mississippi). The only remaining bone of contention was if a birth defect was detected... A pretty small area for further argument I think...


See my post above, especially regarding teenagers.




yummee -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 6:45:56 PM)

I'm not. My only comment that I can possibly imagine would set you off was that I am not in favor of complete access to late term abortions for non-medical reasons.





farglebargle -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 6:56:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: yummee

I'm not. My only comment that I can possibly imagine would set you off was that I am not in favor of complete access to late term abortions for non-medical reasons.




That's it. I understand your qualifications, but those are bullshit, and they're the "Thin end of the wedge".

Any issues are between the patient and the doctor. Period. I'm a total absolutist on this. Any other position enslaves the woman to the legislature's whims. Fuck that noise.

If a doctor doesn't think it's medically necessary, they won't do it, so there are no 'not medically necessary' abortions, and as far as 'late term goes', again, that's between the doctor and patient.




SoftBonds -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 6:56:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

Abortions allowed but only till 12 weeks, exceptions to that for the health of the mother and for rape/incest, and for any woman who is prevented from getting an abortion by 12 weeks because of state action or protesters (e.g. Mississippi). The only remaining bone of contention was if a birth defect was detected... A pretty small area for further argument I think...


See my post above, especially regarding teenagers.


Yeah, if folks put barriers up to stop abortions, then they should expect more late term abortions. If they believe fetuses experience pain, then they have caused the pain by causing the delay...




kalikshama -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 7:00:08 PM)

quote:

I'm not. My only comment that I can possibly imagine would set you off was that I am not in favor of complete access to late term abortions for non-medical reasons.


The Supreme Court and the states agree with you; this is a non-issue.

Late-term Abortions: Facts, Stories, and Ways to Help

In all the extensive coverage of the assassination in his church of Dr. George Tiller by a murderer affiliated with extremist right-wing groups, little has been said to shed light on what late-term abortions are, who has them and why.

Instead, much of the media and talking heads pontificating on this subject have constantly focused on Tiller's being "one of the very few doctors who perform late-term abortions," without providing any context as to why he did so and under what circumstances.

As a result, the dominant narrative is one which perpetuates an assumption that people are electing to have late-term abortions for the sake of convenience. This public perception is shaped by the constant intonement that Tiller was "killing babies" coming from irresponsible journalistic hacks like Bill O'Reilly, the suggestions by Chris Matthews that women are blithely electing to abort fetuses that are viable outside the womb, and the statements of inconsistent moralizers like Will Saletan that "there are cases where there's no real medical situation other than some teenager in denial and it went on for five months [where the argument is] you should make an exception because of the so-called mental health of the girl."

The narrative is one in which women are shamed for choosing abortion, no matter the circumstances, and in which Dr. Tiller is portrayed even indirectly as a despicable aide in their shame.

This narrative is so pervasive that even among those who consider themselves pro-choice, many people are left to wonder: Are these women just waking up one day, deciding over coffee they are tired of being pregnant, and opting for an abortion at 24 weeks? Are there a lot of third trimester abortions? Are they just, as Chris Matthews likes to call them, "elective procedures?"

In fact, in the past two days I have found the misunderstanding about late-term abortion to be widespread even among many of those in the public health advocacy community.

So here are some facts:

Late-term abortions are very rare. About one percent of all abortions performed in the United States occur after 21 weeks. There are different definitions of what constitutes a "late term abortion," but most definitions refer to abortions at or after 24 weeks or in the third trimester.

Late-term abortions are severely restricted by law.

In 1973, the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that the constitutional right to privacy extends to the decision of a woman, in consultation with her physician, to terminate a pregnancy.

The Court also determined, however, that this right is not absolute and it must be balanced against the state's legitimate interest in protecting both the health of the pregnant woman and the developing human life. Therefore, according to Roe, the state's interest in protecting potential life becomes compelling at the point of fetal viability (when the fetus has the capacity for sustained survival outside the uterus). States are allowed to, and indeed have, severely restricted access to abortion in the third-trimester, except, as the Supreme Court has ruled, when necessary to preserve the woman's life or health. In subsequent cases, the Court made clear that viability is a medical determination, which varies with each pregnancy, and that it is the responsibility of the attending physician to make that determination.

As the Guttmacher Institute points out in a brief on this issue, the Supreme Court has held that:

- even after fetal viability, states may not prohibit abortions “necessary to preserve the life or health of the mother;”
- “health” in this context includes both physical and mental health;
- only the physician, in the course of evaluating the specific circumstances of an individual case, can define what constitutes “health” and when a fetus is viable; and
- states cannot require additional physicians to confirm the physician’s judgment that the woman’s life or health is at risk.

What is viability?

Viability is a medical, not a legal definition.

As pointed out in another excellent brief by Planned Parenthood Affiliates of California:

- A fetus is viable when it reaches an "anatomical threshold" when critical organs, such as the lungs and kidneys, can sustain independent life. Until the air sacs are mature enough to permit gases to pass into and out of the bloodstream, which is extremely unlikely until at least 23 weeks gestation (from last menstrual period), a fetus cannot be sustained even with a respirator, which can force air into the lungs but cannot pass gas from the lungs into the bloodstream.

The brief continues by underscoring that:

- While medical advances have increased the survival of infants born between 24 and 28 weeks of gestation, the point of viability has moved little over the past decade; at the earliest, it remains at approximately 24 weeks, where it was when the Supreme Court decided Roe -- a fact acknowledged by the court in its recent decision in PLANNED PARENTHOOD OF SOUTHEASTERN PENNSYLVANIA V. CASEY. A study of infant survival by researchers at Case Western Reserve University Medical School found that the rate of survival for infants born before 25 weeks gestation has not improved appreciably in recent years.

Most states restrict late-term abortions.

The Guttmacher brief notes that:

- 37 states prohibit some abortions after a certain point in pregnancy.
- 24 states initiate prohibitions at fetal viability.
- 5 states initiate prohibitions in the third trimester.
- 8 states initiate prohibitions after a certain number of weeks, generally 24.

The circumstances under which procedures are permitted after that point vary from state to state. For example:

- 29 states permit abortions to preserve the life or health of the woman;
- 4 states permit abortions to save the life or health of the woman, but use a narrow definition of health;
- 4 states permit abortions only to save the life of the woman.

Some states require the involvement of a second physician when a later-term abortion is performed. Nine states require that a second physician attend in order to treat a fetus if it is born alive. Ten states require that a second physician certify that the abortion is medically necessary.

Kansas law is strict on the issue of late-term abortions.

Kansas law requires that such procedures can only be performed after viability if two independent doctors agree that not to do so would put the mother at risk of irreparable harm by giving birth.

A huge gap in the narrative.

There is a vast gap between the descriptions of Dr. Tiller by members of the extremist right -- who incite lunatics to violence by protraying Tiller as a mass murderer -- and the many women and men who have been served by Dr. Tiller, who refer to him as heroic, kind, compassionate, professional. This gap speaks to the fact that very few--not least the mainstream media--understand what he was doing and, and more to the point, why we are asking the wrong people to comment.

Read more: http://www.rhrealitycheck.org/blog/2009/06/02/thirdtrimester-abortions-facts-stories-and-how-you-can-help-0




yummee -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 7:04:22 PM)

Yeah, Kali, I realize it is very rare. I just like to say where my personal line is since everyone seems to have his own line in the sand on it or lack of line in the sand.




farglebargle -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 7:08:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: yummee

Yeah, Kali, I realize it is very rare. I just like to say where my personal line is since everyone seems to have his own line in the sand on it or lack of line in the sand.



And that's the problem. People are talking about "where their lines are" as if their opinion is relevant to anyone but themselves and their doctor.

And where YOU draw YOUR line is between you and your doctor. Please don't bother anyone else with it. I think it's impolite and rude to go broadcasting your medical issues to all and sundry BECAUSE it fosters a belief that such intrusion into Doctor/Patient privacy is acceptable to civilized people.




tazzygirl -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 7:19:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: yummee

Yeah, Kali, I realize it is very rare. I just like to say where my personal line is since everyone seems to have his own line in the sand on it or lack of line in the sand.



I believe that is the line for most women. If a woman doesnt know she is pregnant by her 5th month, she is in severe denial. By 6, she is 2/3rds through the pregnancy and the fetus is viable outside the womb. I would never advocate termination at that point, minus the medical exceptions of course.




tazzygirl -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 7:24:37 PM)

quote:

That's it. I understand your qualifications, but those are bullshit, and they're the "Thin end of the wedge".


Medically speaking, late term abortions come with their own risks to the mother. I do believe many physicians would balk at the idea of terminating a 6 month old fetus (24 weeks)




PeonForHer -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 7:26:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Any issues are between the patient and the doctor. Period. I'm a total absolutist on this. Any other position enslaves the woman to the legislature's whims. Fuck that noise.


I'm not sure that moves the argument on, though, Fargle. Surely the pro-lifers are just going to maintain that a Doctor/Patient relationship exists not just between medic and pregnant mother, but medic and foetus - or unborn baby - too?




LadyXandreia -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 7:28:46 PM)

I've got to say, this is the best thread title I've ever seen. :D




yummee -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 7:28:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I believe that is the line for most women. If a woman doesnt know she is pregnant by her 5th month, she is in severe denial. By 6, she is 2/3rds through the pregnancy and the fetus is viable outside the womb. I would never advocate termination at that point, minus the medical exceptions of course.



Out of curiosity, how viable are they at 6 months? I mean, what kind of quality of life could we reasonably expect? I think i heard somewhere that 6 months is better than 7 months for some reason, but don't remember why.





DaddySatyr -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 7:33:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: yummee


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I believe that is the line for most women. If a woman doesnt know she is pregnant by her 5th month, she is in severe denial. By 6, she is 2/3rds through the pregnancy and the fetus is viable outside the womb. I would never advocate termination at that point, minus the medical exceptions of course.



Out of curiosity, how viable are they at 6 months? I mean, what kind of quality of life could we reasonably expect? I think i heard somewhere that 6 months is better than 7 months for some reason, but don't remember why.




My ex-wife was a 6 month gestational premie. I think you're looking for (what the doctors told me, when all of my children were on the way): "If a baby is going to be premie, you don't want it to happen in the eighth month."

For some reason, eight month babies almost never survive. I know it sounds weird but that's what I was told. None of my children were premature (My youngest was almost a month late) so, I have no personal knowledge.



Peace and comfort,



Michael




xssve -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 7:35:02 PM)

Until about week 26 the fetal brain is less complicated than a rats brain, at that point it's basically a vegetable, but begins developing rapidly after that.

Gender doesn't develop until about the Tenth week, before that the fetus is an "abomination" by religious standards, neither male nor female.




SoftBonds -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 7:42:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: yummee


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I believe that is the line for most women. If a woman doesnt know she is pregnant by her 5th month, she is in severe denial. By 6, she is 2/3rds through the pregnancy and the fetus is viable outside the womb. I would never advocate termination at that point, minus the medical exceptions of course.



Out of curiosity, how viable are they at 6 months? I mean, what kind of quality of life could we reasonably expect? I think i heard somewhere that 6 months is better than 7 months for some reason, but don't remember why.




Kalik answered that, reposted below:
(although since the info is from planned parenthood, conservatives probably don't want to read it and thereby fund abortions)

quote:

What is viability?

Viability is a medical, not a legal definition.

As pointed out in another excellent brief by Planned Parenthood Affiliates of California:

- A fetus is viable when it reaches an "anatomical threshold" when critical organs, such as the lungs and kidneys, can sustain independent life. Until the air sacs are mature enough to permit gases to pass into and out of the bloodstream, which is extremely unlikely until at least 23 weeks gestation (from last menstrual period), a fetus cannot be sustained even with a respirator, which can force air into the lungs but cannot pass gas from the lungs into the bloodstream.

The brief continues by underscoring that:

- While medical advances have increased the survival of infants born between 24 and 28 weeks of gestation, the point of viability has moved little over the past decade; at the earliest, it remains at approximately 24 weeks, where it was when the Supreme Court decided Roe -- a fact acknowledged by the court in its recent decision in PLANNED PARENTHOOD OF SOUTHEASTERN PENNSYLVANIA V. CASEY. A study of infant survival by researchers at Case Western Reserve University Medical School found that the rate of survival for infants born before 25 weeks gestation has not improved appreciably in recent years.




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