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RE: Completely off topic - 4/21/2012 1:51:39 PM

LaTigresse

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The United States of America.......proud of our hypocrisy!

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(in reply to tj444)

Post #: 121

RE: Completely off topic - 4/21/2012 2:31:49 PM

OsideGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

So its sorta funny cuz on one hand, you have a nanny state with the govt telling you what meds you are allowed to buy and how much, otoh, they let anyone (except with a serious criminal record) have an arsenol of guns and weaponry.. It just seems.. a little strange to me/outside observers.

I'll go with that...partially based on restriction on quantity of cold meds. For the record, it annoys the hell out of me to have to show ID to empty my sinuses. However, my example was prescription pain killers, a la Oxycotin. It gets sold on the streets for $10 a pill and people are addicted and dying. But, they still prescribe it to people based on their needs, not based on what criminals are doing with it.

We have "nanny state" regarding firearms. ANY felony means you're precluded from owning a gun in the state of California, not just "serious". To buy a handgun, you have to take a written test and be at least 21. Every time you buy a handgun in the state of California, you go through a DOJ background check, there's a 10 day waiting period, you have to buy a safety lock and you have safety check the purchased weapon in front of a certified witness to prove that you know how to handle the weapon safely. There are restrictions on which guns you can buy and how often you can buy one. I agree with most of the laws regarding gun purchases. The only place I disagree is with the CA list of acceptable guns because it can come down to not being able to purchase a gun based on the color of the gun.

In the state of California, you can't just waltz into a store and walk out with an arsenal.

< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 4/21/2012 2:32:11 PM >

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Post #: 122

RE: Completely off topic - 4/21/2012 2:44:26 PM

hlen5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444
I dont have anything that could be used very effectively as a weapon..

Sorry Oside girl, I just can't let this one go.

tj - that is a bunch of bunk. I'm looking around my apartment and see at least 100 things that can be used as weapons. Heck I took a class in which we learned how to use a paperback as a weapon!

And this is of course a good opportunity to list my classic favorite book. Gavin DeBecker, The Gift of Fear. Well worth whatever it costs to buy it.

QFT!

(in reply to sunshinemiss)

Post #: 123

RE: Completely off topic - 4/21/2012 3:14:05 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
I'll go with that...partially based on restriction on quantity of cold meds. For the record, it annoys the hell out of me to have to show ID to empty my sinuses. However, my example was prescription pain killers, a la Oxycotin. It gets sold on the streets for $10 a pill and people are addicted and dying. But, they still prescribe it to people based on their needs, not based on what criminals are doing with it.

We have "nanny state" regarding firearms. ANY felony means you're precluded from owning a gun in the state of California, not just "serious". To buy a handgun, you have to take a written test and be at least 21. Every time you buy a handgun in the state of California, you go through a DOJ background check, there's a 10 day waiting period, you have to buy a safety lock and you have safety check the purchased weapon in front of a certified witness to prove that you know how to handle the weapon safely. There are restrictions on which guns you can buy and how often you can buy one. I agree with most of the laws regarding gun purchases. The only place I disagree is with the CA list of acceptable guns because it can come down to not being able to purchase a gun based on the color of the gun.

In the state of California, you can't just waltz into a store and walk out with an arsenal.

Sure prescription drugs are controlled but its just amazing what other meds, etc the govt restricts.. its extreme imo.. like people are too incompetent to remove their own skin tags??? they need to ban dental floss then cuz some people use that to remove them..

It just seems weirdly inconsistant..

There is gun control in Canada similar to that (registration, courses, fingerprints, background check, etc) but its just for certain guns like rifles.. I was told it was almost impossible to get a handgun permit there...

I do understand why you got one tho.. you do what you feel is right for yourself.. there are other things you can do too, of course, like good security film on windows and beefing up your doors and locks, removeable bars across the door inside, that kinda stuff.. Just outta curiousity, have you done that kinda stuff too?

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Post #: 124

RE: Completely off topic - 4/21/2012 3:54:03 PM

OsideGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

I do understand why you got one tho.. you do what you feel is right for yourself.. there are other things you can do too, of course, like good security film on windows and beefing up your doors and locks, removeable bars across the door inside, that kinda stuff.. Just outta curiousity, have you done that kinda stuff too?

The crime that I'm worried about is home invasion. They knock on the door, when the home owner answers, they kick the door in and beat the crap out of the homeowner. If the homeowner doesn't answer they go around to the back of the house and break in. There's been 10 of these in the last 2 months in an area about 10 miles from where we live, all on weekdays and during working hours. I work from home and don't want to be afraid to answer the door. Because of the way our house is laid out, our front door can't be seen from street. No one around me would know it's happening.

Otherwise, we live in a low crime area, so there's not much use beyond what we have. In our city of 55,000 there have 25 arrests so far this month. 16 of those were for drugs, DUI, drunk or some other driving offense, like riding a bicycle under the influence. The rest are a mix of assault (2 spousal and 2 resisting arrest), 1 trespassing and 4 burglaries.

< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 4/21/2012 4:00:33 PM >

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Post #: 125

RE: Completely off topic - 4/21/2012 4:55:26 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
The crime that I'm worried about is home invasion. They knock on the door, when the home owner answers, they kick the door in and beat the crap out of the homeowner. If the homeowner doesn't answer they go around to the back of the house and break in. There's been 10 of these in the last 2 months in an area about 10 miles from where we live, all on weekdays and during working hours. I work from home and don't want to be afraid to answer the door. Because of the way our house is laid out, our front door can't be seen from street. No one around me would know it's happening.

Otherwise, we live in a low crime area, so there's not much use beyond what we have. In our city of 55,000 there have 25 arrests so far this month. 16 of those were for drugs, DUI, drunk or some other driving offense, like riding a bicycle under the influence. The rest are a mix of assault (2 spousal and 2 resisting arrest), 1 trespassing and 4 burglaries.

I know thats what you are worried about, but if there are some (not too expensive) ways of making it harder for them to break down the doors, etc so it takes them longer to get in... that gives you more time to call the cops, get your gun, etc... and more time for the cops to get there..

I dunno, if it were me there would be a hidden camera on the front door & sidewalk so if someone does knock, you can see who it is without even going near the door.. if you have an intercom at your front door you could also ask them what they want.. I dont think that basic cameras and stuff are all that expensive.. I wouldnt pay money for a professionally installed security system tho, but thats just me.. some people do or they dont bother with the alarm and just get one of those alarm company signs to stick at the front door to make it look like they have one..

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Post #: 126

RE: Completely off topic - 4/21/2012 5:02:19 PM

OsideGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

I know thats what you are worried about, but if there are some (not too expensive) ways of making it harder for them to break down the doors, etc so it takes them longer to get in... that gives you more time to call the cops, get your gun, etc... and more time for the cops to get there..

The door is already open at that point, they just kick it in past the security chain. There's not much that would stop it at that point.

quote:

if you have an intercom at your front door you could also ask them what they want

Ultimately, we plan on having an ornamental wrought iron gate made for walkway and use an intercom/electronic lock system. That way they'd never even get near the door to the house.

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Give a girl the right shoes and she will conquer the world. ~ Marilyn Monroe

The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

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Post #: 127

RE: Completely off topic - 4/21/2012 5:10:00 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
Ultimately, we plan on having an ornamental wrought iron gate made for walkway and use an intercom/electronic lock system. That way they'd never even get near the door to the house.

Yes, that would be even better.. fer sure.. The harder you make it for them the safer you are..

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Post #: 128

RE: Completely off topic - 4/22/2012 6:16:10 AM

Hillwilliam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

, etc so it takes them longer to get in... that gives you more time to call the cops, <snip>and more time for the cops to get there..

The last time I dialed 911 from home, it was for a bullet coming thru the front window (apparently a stray) in miami. FORTY-FIVE MINUTES later, someone showed up that wasn't even a real cop. She wouldn't go look at the bullet hole because there was a spider web and she was scared of it and that's supposed to fucking PROTECT me?

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Post #: 129

RE: Completely off topic - 4/22/2012 11:03:55 AM

OsideGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

, etc so it takes them longer to get in... that gives you more time to call the cops, <snip>and more time for the cops to get there..

The last time I dialed 911 from home, it was for a bullet coming thru the front window (apparently a stray) in miami. FORTY-FIVE MINUTES later, someone showed up that wasn't even a real cop. She wouldn't go look at the bullet hole because there was a spider web and she was scared of it and that's supposed to fucking PROTECT me?

We live in an area where there isn't a city police force. We're served by the county Sheriff. The station is about 2 miles from our house, but that station is the police presence for a few towns besides ours. Our neighbors told us that the response varies greatly on whether there's something high profile going on and where they are within their shift.

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Post #: 130

RE: Completely off topic - 4/22/2012 12:29:43 PM

hardcybermaster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

, etc so it takes them longer to get in... that gives you more time to call the cops, <snip>and more time for the cops to get there..

The last time I dialed 911 from home, it was for a bullet coming thru the front window (apparently a stray) in miami. FORTY-FIVE MINUTES later, someone showed up that wasn't even a real cop. She wouldn't go look at the bullet hole because there was a spider web and she was scared of it and that's supposed to fucking PROTECT me?

so the answer to bullets coming through your front window is for people to get more guns, not to stop people getting more guns

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Post #: 131

RE: Completely off topic - 4/22/2012 12:46:28 PM

OsideGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

, etc so it takes them longer to get in... that gives you more time to call the cops, <snip>and more time for the cops to get there..

The last time I dialed 911 from home, it was for a bullet coming thru the front window (apparently a stray) in miami. FORTY-FIVE MINUTES later, someone showed up that wasn't even a real cop. She wouldn't go look at the bullet hole because there was a spider web and she was scared of it and that's supposed to fucking PROTECT me?

so the answer to bullets coming through your front window is for people to get more guns, not to stop people getting more guns

Gun laws don't prevent criminals from having a gun. If a stray bullet came through his window if was fired by someone illegally. You're equating what a law abiding citizen should be able to own based on what someone who is behaving in a criminal manner.

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Post #: 132

RE: Completely off topic - 4/22/2012 3:02:51 PM

hardcybermaster

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I know they don't. The stray bullet was clearly fired illigally but not necessarily by a criminal. Lets face it if we put guns and idiots together in a Venn diagram there is a pretty big overlap. The more guns there are, the more idiots with guns there are, I am sure HW is a sensible guy and gun owner but when a bullet comes through his window it doesn't matter whether he has a gun or not, he could still die. More guns means more bullets through windows means more people dead

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Post #: 133

RE: Completely off topic - 4/22/2012 3:16:20 PM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
The last time I dialed 911 from home, it was for a bullet coming thru the front window (apparently a stray) in miami. FORTY-FIVE MINUTES later, someone showed up that wasn't even a real cop. She wouldn't go look at the bullet hole because there was a spider web and she was scared of it and that's supposed to fucking PROTECT me?

she had a gun, didnt she? why didnt she just shoot the dam spider and then take a look at the window?..
well.. maybe she thought the spider was on drugs???

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Post #: 134

RE: Completely off topic - 4/22/2012 6:27:35 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

that gives you more time to call the cops, <snip>and more time for the cops to get there..

The last time I dialed 911 from home, it was for a bullet coming thru the front window (apparently a stray) in miami. FORTY-FIVE MINUTES later, someone showed up that wasn't even a real cop. She wouldn't go look at the bullet hole because there was a spider web and she was scared of it and that's supposed to fucking PROTECT me?

The police here are pretty tidy and honest about the fact that they're neither intended to protect us, nor required to (the labor union has been clear that getting into a violent situation is voluntary for law enforcement personell, just like it is for any random passerby). And that they would've liked to spend more than 40 hrs pr year on training in preparation for violent situations. A not so well known case had police waiting for a gang to finish beating a guy to a pulp before arresting a bystander (they didn't want to risk arresting the perps, as those were clearly violent).

Granted, most police aren't like that, but they're clear we shouldn't expect more, cannot expect more, and should always leave it to them anyway. Nowhere is this as clear as when it comes to sex crimes. They were quick to shut down a campaign to teach women to physically resist rape, for instance.

Vigilantism is the only thing that lights a fire under their asses.

Like grabbing a baseball bat and going after the perps in a mad rage after your daughter comes home crying from being gang raped on a date. That's a pretty serious charge, and an example is always made. In the most recent case, the rape itself wasn't investigated, and the girl will be without her sole parent for a few years. If anyone had been convicted, they would have faced maybe four months in jail since she was a minor and the crime was premeditated. That counts the kidnapping. She has to wait longer than four months in the queue before a therapy slot opens up for her, of course.

The fun part is: it's good enough for most of us, anyway.

When seconds mattered in Oslo, police were so far away that the perp was mostly just passing the time shooting youth he randomly encountered while waiting for the police dispatch to call him back after the third time he had "pestered" them with offers to stop killing and surrender himself. If he hadn't been so completely devoid of skills, he would have killed at least half of the 600 targets, rather than just shy of 70 (with three frangible bullets each on average).

I don't much think about police in any context.

I give them a call about things I don't want to be bothered dealing with myself, like checking out suspicious abandoned cars or the like. I have been pestered a few times due to corruption. I've never experienced having anything done about a reported crime or emergency, and for a long time it hasn't even occured to me to call them if a crime is in progress. And I've better things to do with my time than describe a crime for someone that considers it a hassle to have to take it down before closing the case as "unsolved, not investigated." That's the case for most people I know. We mostly use the police for what the USA uses civil lawsuits for.

Still, we have so much welfare that there's almost no violent crime in the native population, and it's unlikely anyone would really notice if the police took a week off unannounced. Hence, self defense isn't a very useful skill to most people here, and having responsible citizens carrying guns isn't going to make much of a difference until the next extremist goes off. Protection isn't really necessary when the risk is so low.

Just like the case is for using a condom...

... hey, wait! I do use condoms.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

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From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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Post #: 135

RE: Completely off topic - 4/22/2012 7:09:24 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

well,.. being a female,.. I dont think the risk of rape is miniscule,..

I should've said assaultive rape or somesuch, mea culpa.

The risk of being assaulted by an unknown rapist at random is miniscule.

quote:

when in reality, if there is a risk to a female, its much more likely to come from someone she has some level of trust in (due to knowing them to whatever degree and feeling they are ok)..

That goes for both genders, I think, and all categories of crime. Opportunity and context.

quote:

I do agree that if you resist, fight back, you are more likely to get away.. that has happened to me before, and its just my immediate and overwhelming instinct to fight, with determination and everything in me..

Which works in my experience and reading. It's exceedingly rare around these parts to find anyone resisting, though. Most won't even call out for help, at least if you tell them not to. Anything resembling self preservation has been bred out of us, pretty much, and the police expend more effort on discouraging resistance than on investigating the crime itself.

This, of course, is part of the whole bit about perspective. What most women here fear, is what is least likely to happen. What most self defense courses here are about, is what is least useful to be effective without extensive training. I try to put relative risks and what to do about them into a perspective that makes sense in terms of time and effort, and also to reframe fear as something should occur in the course of a problem, not in anticipation of one.

An acquaintance that attempts to rape someone is generally not ready to deal with a person that is prepared to make a best effort at stopping them. Thus, a few minimal pointers and a few tries under stress will solve the most likely problem. A stranger is more ready for it, having arrived at that point by stepping across the line, rather than skedaddling across as the situation develops. But most are still not ready to deal with having their eyes clawed out. So, again, the same prep work will dramatically improve the odds of a better outcome, at the very least.

Dealing with someone that's up for restraints and a weekend from hell is a different ball game, but also such a rare event that there are a million better things to do with one's time than to be prepared for that eventuality. Like healthier cooking.

Of course, that's where I live. Conditions vary, as Osidegirl points out.

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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Post #: 136

RE: Completely off topic - 4/22/2012 8:33:57 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

One is designed to transport people and things around, the other is designed to blow stuff up and kill people.

It would derail this thread even further to explain why cars are less necessary and far worse.

quote:

I don't know what the driving test is like in the US but it's fairly stringent over here.

I'm not in the USA, so I'm not sure why you're asking me.

Around here, when you're 18, have taken first aid, had demonstrations of the limitations of dark adaptation in the field and passed a written exam (some 200 pages or so to memorize and grasp) then you're ready to start practicing with your parents. After a couple hundred hours of that, you can start practicing with a driving instructor. Eventually, you do the practical exam, which means a couple of hours of driving while the instructor is watching. A mistake like not having come to a complete halt before the correct line in an empty intersection is an immediate fail, at which point you have to wait a year or so before you can try again. What they're actually looking for, though, is whether you've got sufficient situational awareness and navigation skills and the like. Handling the car and sticking to the traffic laws is assumed to be in place before you start formal training.

A friend moved to CA recently, and concluded that it's probably not possible for a human to fail the driver's licence test in the USA. Most driving instructors here would tell experienced drivers in CA to go study a few more months with their parents before they start training with an actual qualified instructor, due to a complete lack of basic skills. That's the difference in requirements, at a glance.

quote:

It is my understanding that in a lot if not all states you can buy a range of different guns with absolutely no testing whatsoever.

It is my understanding that such is a terminally bad idea. Furthermore, I would point out that the status quo has nothing to do with competent or responsible gun ownership, or the possibility of same. Don't think in terms of the false dichotomy posited by the two camps. Think in terms of what works, and what is right. We'll agree to differ on what's right, as I'm in favor of freedom. But I'm pretty sure we could agree on what works.

quote:

A car is not meant to kill but clearly can if used recklessly or stupidly so we need to prove we are competent with one before we get to use one.

A firearm accident in my hands would be far less likely than a car accident, and the injuries would be far less severe. This comes down to a car being a far more complicated tool, the exposure being higher, and the risk being far harder to control. And, quite frankly, that it is significantly easier to forget for an instant that a car is a weapon.

quote:

As LC said and you said, there are lots of idiots out there, and they have guns, bad choice. Obviously the pro gun answer is for everyone to have a gun, ,more and more guns, where does it end? With more dead bodies

My pro gun answer isn't for everyone to have a gun.

Still, I'm curious... is it okay for me to have a penis, seeing as there's a lot of idiots out there that use theirs irresponsibly? I mean, I don't strictly speaking need one. I probably have more use for a car than my dick. And I'll probably make more use of the little guy than I ever will of a car, so clearly they're completely disporportionate in use and utility. And if I need to tell you how much more harm irresponsible use of a penis can do than a mere car accident, I think you need to get more creative before replying.

Would it be okay if I was born with a gun between my legs?

Health,
al-Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to hardcybermaster)

Post #: 137

RE: Completely off topic - 4/22/2012 9:10:54 PM

OsideGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hardcybermaster

I know they don't. The stray bullet was clearly fired illigally but not necessarily by a criminal.

Discharging a firearm within a certain distance of a home is a crime, therefore the action is criminal.

quote:

Lets face it if we put guns and idiots together in a Venn diagram there is a pretty big overlap. The more guns there are, the more idiots with guns there are, I am sure HW is a sensible guy and gun owner but when a bullet comes through his window it doesn't matter whether he has a gun or not, he could still die. More guns means more bullets through windows means more people dead

Stopping the ownership of legal guns by law abiding citizens, doesn't reduce the number of illegal guns owned by people operating in an illegal fashion. Period. You're so busy letting your knee jerk you around that you seem to keep missing that fact.

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Post #: 138

RE: Completely off topic - 4/24/2012 6:37:21 AM

tj444

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
Stopping the ownership of legal guns by law abiding citizens, doesn't reduce the number of illegal guns owned by people operating in an illegal fashion. Period.

Umm,.. I dont agree with that. In Canada, few people have guns and the guns they are most likely to have are rifles (you cant just walk down the street with a rifle and people not notice), handguns in Canada are extremely hard to get, both legally and illegally.. unless they are guns smuggled in from the US as is most often the case.. Its been said that the US illegally gets Canada's pot and Canada illegally gets US handguns..

I also wonder how many criminals in the US get their guns from stealing them from legal gun owners while stealing their other valuables..

The rate of gun homicide per 100,000 people in the US is 2.98, in Canada its 0.53.. (that doesnt include suicides or accidental death by gun)
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compare/31/rate_of_gun_homicide/194

But all that said,.. its your country, not mine.. its up to Americans to decide how they want to live their life and what their laws should be..

jmo

< Message edited by tj444 -- 4/24/2012 6:41:30 AM >

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Post #: 139

RE: Completely off topic - 4/24/2012 7:20:36 AM

OsideGirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tj444

quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
Stopping the ownership of legal guns by law abiding citizens, doesn't reduce the number of illegal guns owned by people operating in an illegal fashion. Period.

Umm,.. I dont agree with that. In Canada, few people have guns and the guns they are most likely to have are rifles (you cant just walk down the street with a rifle and people not notice), handguns in Canada are extremely hard to get, both legally and illegally.. unless they are guns smuggled in from the US as is most often the case.. Its been said that the US illegally gets Canada's pot and Canada illegally gets US handguns.. I also wonder how many criminals in the US get their guns from stealing them from legal gun owners while stealing their other valuables..

The rate of gun homicide per 100,000 people in the US is 2.98, in Canada its 0.53.. (that doesnt include suicides or accidental death by gun)
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/compare/31/rate_of_gun_homicide/194

But all that said,.. its your country, not mine.. its up to Americans to decide how they want to live their life and what their laws should be..

jmo

Most of the gun activity here is drug money based gangs mostly made up of immigrants. The drugs and the guns come over the border and get resold in alleys.

The amount of guns that would have to be stolen to supply criminals isn't realistic. Yes, some have been stolen from law abiding citizens. But, then again, someone in LA had their car stolen and used in a high speed chase.

While Canada's gun deaths are lower, the rate of stabbing and beating deaths is higher than the US:

quote:

The non-firearm homicide data however clearly confirms that murders in Canada are much more brutal than in the United States. Here, we find that the relative number of homicides involving stabbing as the cause of death in Canada is 167.4% greater than in the United States (0.67 homicides per 100,000 in Canada vs 0.40 homicides per 100,000 in the U.S.), while the number of homicides where the victims were beaten to death is 815.5% greater (0.38 homicides per 100,000 in Canada vs 0.05 homicides per 100,000 in the U.S.).

< Message edited by OsideGirl -- 4/24/2012 7:42:55 AM >

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The Accelerated Velocity of Terminological Inexactitude

(in reply to tj444)

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