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RE: What's with this great divide? - 4/14/2012 4:35:40 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		Back in what could be termed an earlier generation of leather, technically, every Master could have been called a switch.  The concept back in those days (way before the net) was that everyone had to start out at the bottom to adequately learn how to run a leather household.  A lot of the opportunities that are common today weren't so common back then.  There's more to this than I have the time to type, so I'll leave it at that.

A lot of things changed over the years.  Probably the greatest example of this were more educational opportunities about certain aspects.  It became not just leather, or swingers, but also BDSM.  People started writing books about kink.  Small groups started springing up in most cities.  In larger cities, there were even multiple day events that you could attend that were open.  (OK, I'm skipping a lot of history but bare with Me.)

Now, some will say that this was better or worse, but most can't argue that there were new opportunities on both sides.  One of these that I admit to taking personal advantage of was the 'everyone starts at the bottom' rule.  I didn't partake of that.  It wasn't going to make Me happy and I figured I was intelligent enough to take normal life lessons and understand how they apply.

If people are smart enough, they understand that they know what it is like to submit.  If you've ever had a job where you had to follow an order or a directive that you didn't like, but you did anyway and didn't quit the position, you did submit.  Do you know what it's like not to be the top decision maker?  That means you understand hierarchy.  Know what it is to have been punished?  Doing tasks you don't like?  Have to earn more than you spend????  On and on and on.  Oh, but you weren't "in love"?  Balderdash.  You kept the job, paid the rent, obeyed the law, or anything else that applies in authority or power structure.

Now, if I already had all of those examples in My life, does anybody think that I needed better examples to know that I was a better leader than a follower?  Moving on.

Let's talk about topping/bottoming.  To date, I have tested toys on Myself, conducted fire play on My own leg, zapped Myself with the wand, (intentional and not intentional) spilled more wax on Myself making My own candles than I can count, poked Myself with more than enough needles, tested rope, tasted My own whip, hurt My own damn self during resistance play, snowballed, tasted My own cum, felt feathers, and done a few things underwater that would frighten fish.  I'm not clueless.  I know what things feel like, TO ME.  That's not going to make Me respond to pain like a masochist or take pain because I have this inner desire to please someone.  I'm never going to feel what those people feel.

If switching suits you, great!  I'm not suited for it. 

Find your own bliss.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to another1harder)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: What's with this great divide? - 4/14/2012 5:18:27 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline 		Karmastic:

The great divide between D and S is largely a chimera of the online world. Even on FetLife, there is less of a divide than on CM, because there are so many more gender and relationship options.

As LadyPact pointed out, the history of US BDSM didn't have that divide at all. Beyond that, ignoring kink, it's a scientific fact that both men and women tend to be sexually submissive when they are younger, and sexually dominant as they age. There is a lot of variation in this, of course, but the statistical trend is clear. My personal interpretation of this is that newbs (by which I mean people without sexual experience) don't really know what they want, and enjoy being introduced to new things, while veterans have a better idea of what they like and are more willing to ask for it.

There just isn't that much of a divide in real life. Fifty gazillion dominant women are vanilla with their husbands and satisfy their dominant urges by owning nonsexual slaves. And I can't count the number of times women have told me something like, "I broke up with my poly master because I saw him submitting to his wife, and I just couldn't respect him after that." Beyond that, a longtime slave once told me, "It's an open secret that Owners sometimes have to recharge," by which she meant that once a year Focus50 wears panties and licks thigh-high leather boots. (Well, no, that's not what she meant, but I bet even he would think that visual is hilarious.) Every once in a while, her longtime owner, who was an uberdom, would bring a woman home to top him, because that wasn't a form of service she was able to provide.

How many of those 19 year old princesses whose profiles state, "I only want losers who can send me $$$ and never have sex with me," do you think are actually celibate nuns? Most of them probably have a vanilla or vanilla-dominant boyfriend, and they're trying to get some extra cash. Many people emphasize just one side of themselves online, because they are only trying to recruit to that, as they have their other needs covered.

Incidentally, your post said to me, "I can't stop thinking about this stuff, but I haven't met anyone in real life yet to ground my ideas in reality." I think you need to meet some people. A lot of these issues suddenly become simpler, and yet more complex, if that makes any sense.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to Karmastic)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: What's with this great divide? - 4/14/2012 5:28:03 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Karmastic

I posted this here because I think it applies to everyone, switches, doms, and subs, and all can give their own perspective.

I think it's safe to say for any complimentary relationship, that playing the other role helps one understand it better, and compliment that role when playing it's opposite. Switches, I get that, and happen to agree.

Then there's the other side that says how can you be the truest true blood dom or sub if you don't devote yourself to that role. Reminds me of Spartans and Ninja warriors, and certainly resonates with me.

Where along these two extremes do you fall? Assuming it's one or the other, don't you see room for both? Is a switch really "better", or just more empathetic? Is a true blood dom or sub really any more or less devoted than a switch filling that role? Does experimenting or being flexible by offering to switch pollute one role? That view reminds me of a sleeping with the enemy perspective.

My take on it - I used to wish I was bi-sexual, so that I could have twice as many options (and fun). But hairy bodies and cocks never turned me on. Now I sort of wish I was a switch. Sort of because I'm careful what I wish for.

As Elvis Costello put it, what's so funny about peace, love and understanding?


My perspective is that ME, trying to be submissive, feels wrong and just makes me very angry. If tried long enough, I get depressed and withdraw into myself. It's a survival mode and nothing more. It sure as hell isn't a way to live life. Been there, done that, and have great gaps in memory to prove it. As soon as I escaped that relationship I began to bloom again. At first tentitively, then with more and more confidence. Today, if for some catastrophic reason, I had to try and go back to that mindset it would hell. I am strong enough I know I could do it, especially if the lives of those I love depended on it, but it would be a role for me. And misery.

Being a dominant person, only wanting a power exchange relationship of this sort, with a woman, is who I am. I COULD top a man in BDSM play but it wouldn't do anything for me. The only relationship I can tolerate with a man is one of mutual respect, vanilla, less sexual and yet with a power based tipped slightly in my favour. I have that. It is with one of the few men, if not only man, I have ever respected and fully trusted in all ways. I sincerely doubt there will ever be another regardless of this one's life span. My sexuality is primarily inspired by women and 99.999% of men do not interest me in that way, at all. It's just the way I'm built.

I've a good friend that is a switch. 99.999% of her relationships are lesbian and with her as the dominant partner. Her daughter's father was the only male she has had a sexual relationship with. I am the only dominant person she ever has had a submissive relationship with.

You see Karma, it's not always black and white. Some of us can honestly say that it's taken some life and living to come to an understanding of what fulfills us, fits us, best. It doesn't mean we haven't tried other things or that there isn't the possibility of other things, but working with our experiences, we have a pretty fair idea of what will work best for us........NOW.

Some people seem to come out of the gate, just knowing, and never really deviated from that path. They follow it and are happy and fulfilled with it. Others spend a lifetime wandering around, visiting other paths, maybe even following a completely different one for awhile. Not really feeling any need to remain limited to any one way. Knowing that there are multiple paths available to them, given the right circumstances. Others of us, were shoved down one, trudged on because it was expected, just doing what was required. Not happy but not really understanding why. Then one day, had the great fortune to see that there are MANY optional paths and decided to test a few of them out until they found one that felt more like home.

Another thing to consider, human beings are not always stagnant beings. A life path that a person can, quite happily follow for a period of time can begin to not fit. That person has grown and some of the wants and needs have changed with that growth. I believe one of the previous posters mentioned a similar experience in her life. Change and relationship dynamics are either inspired from within and our own growth and change, other people and how they affect us, but usually a combination of both.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Karmastic)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: What's with this great divide? - 4/14/2012 5:48:39 AM   
Bhruic


Posts: 985
Joined: 4/11/2012
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

Just trying to imagine your screen pic in heels, dress & lippy....

Or maybe that's why dictators have a bad rep.

Nuthin' to see here, folks - move along!

Focus.


Is it your understanding that the opposite of Dom is crossdresser? I agree... nothing to see here. Moving on.

< Message edited by Bhruic -- 4/14/2012 5:50:07 AM >

(in reply to Focus50)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: What's with this great divide? - 4/14/2012 6:05:27 AM   
Bhruic


Posts: 985
Joined: 4/11/2012
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact



If people are smart enough, they understand that they know what it is like to submit.  If you've ever had a job where you had to follow an order or a directive that you didn't like, but you did anyway and didn't quit the position, you did submit.  Do you know what it's like not to be the top decision maker?  That means you understand hierarchy.  Know what it is to have been punished?  Doing tasks you don't like?  Have to earn more than you spend????  On and on and on.  Oh, but you weren't "in love"?  Balderdash.  You kept the job, paid the rent, obeyed the law, or anything else that applies in authority or power structure.




If this were all that true, it seems to me that lousy Doms, who are self serving and abuse rather than use their subs, would be rare... but that doesn't seem to be the case. They abound, and you read about them ad noseam on every BDSM site (granted, they tend to be immediately labeled as "Fakes", but I doubt they agree with that label). Some of them may well be just not that smart. Others may be working out - on someone else - their issues over not liking the very kinds of situations you describe above.

I am sure there are good Doms exactly as you describe above, but they are not in the majority in my opinion. I'm not saying you have to be a switch to be a good Dom... I'm just saying that if you are switch, I think you are more likely to be a good Dom. Or at least, it is less likely you have chosen to be Dom in order to work out personal issues.


< Message edited by Bhruic -- 4/14/2012 6:06:44 AM >

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: What's with this great divide? - 4/14/2012 6:23:33 AM   
Bhruic


Posts: 985
Joined: 4/11/2012
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Honestly, were that possible, I would completely agree with you. But for Carol and I, these aren't roles. I can't be Carol and she can't be me. We could pretend to swap roles, but little understanding would come from play acting.



I think that is great... and I totally agree that sometimes two people just seem to click in to a perfect dynamic of roles that work for them. That is, by and large, the case with Nikki and I as well. But I see that as different from someone who staunchly holds to a singular role no matter the context, or the person they are involved with.

She never imagined herself as a sub, and I never thought much to pursue dominance to the extreme level that we have... Had we held steadfast to those singular self images, we would never have come together to enjoy the love and the life we now enjoy.

Now, I have no issue with those who, having given it some thought, are confident that they are best suited and happiest in one particular role - Dom in particular. But I take issue with those who righteously express the opinion that they are consequently "Authentic" Doms, and everyone else is a poser.

There are plenty of such about, and I find it ironic because it seems to me that kind of righteous stance comes from a place of insecurity. (as pretty much any righteous stance on any topic does)

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: What's with this great divide? - 4/14/2012 6:49:31 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I fully admit to not reading about tons of lousy Doms on BDSM sites.  I have no need to because I've met far more good people in My life than I've spent the time reading profiles or blogs.  As a good author once said, "the problem with people is that they believe everything they see in print".  This is not to say that some things written are not true, but just because they have been written does not make them true.  I tend to believe more what I see with My own eyes.

I have never cared much if I was in the majority or not, smart or not, authentic or not.  As I have often invited people over the years on these boards, come and meet Me for yourself to make your own judgement.  I'm not hard to find.  Feel free to come and say hello and decide for yourself.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Bhruic)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: What's with this great divide? - 4/14/2012 7:27:09 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic

Now, I have no issue with those who, having given it some thought, are confident that they are best suited and happiest in one particular role - Dom in particular. But I take issue with those who righteously express the opinion that they are consequently "Authentic" Doms, and everyone else is a poser.



You appear to be saying that the only people who are capable of giving thought, and being confident that they are playing the right role are dominants.

As a submissive, who is confident about her own sexuality, who has never had any conflicts about my own sexuality, I find that offensive.

And again,, as many of us have said repeatedly, this isn't a role we put on. It is who we are. The fact that I have a brain and use it to ensure that I only submit to the one man I have ever met who merits this from me, has nothing to do with what I am. Before I was sexually active, I was straight. During celibate times in my life I've still been straight. It isn't a role. It is who I am. But again, being more than just sexual, I use my brain to overrule desires that don't seem wise to me. Being straight doesn't mean I have to have sex with every man who offers. Being submissive doesn't mean I have to submit to every man who offers.

As far as those who claim they are the only authentic dom around, I see very few of them. I wonder where you go that you know such hordes.


_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to Bhruic)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: What's with this great divide? - 4/14/2012 7:36:11 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		In theory, that statement sounds great, most especially since I am a switch myself.

In the reality of practical application, sorry, the people I know are far too complex and variable to make your hypothesis worthwhile.

JMO, YMMV and all that crap

_____________________________



(in reply to Bhruic)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: What's with this great divide? - 4/14/2012 7:58:33 AM   
MariaB


Posts: 2969
Joined: 4/3/2007
Status: offline

For years I was strictly dominant but then I met Steve and I adventurously tried the other side. It was fun for a while, different and exciting I suppose but it was a passing phase. I learnt a lot about myself during that period. I learnt that 'my' dominance was hugely sexual and all those other sadistic things I had been doing away from sex were merely a form of foreplay. I learnt that I didn't need to be in a full time relationship with a submissive man/woman but what I actually enjoyed was a relationship with someone who is very much a leader. A man who could inspire me, encourage me, protect me and stand by me. A man who would take absolutely no shit off me and believe me, I have spent most of my adult life manipulating the male species round my little finger! and yet a man who is not my dominant.
I don't think of myself as dominant or submissive anymore. I think of myself as level headed and adventurous.
Steve has a fantastic sub female who is a complete realist when it comes to her submission within our relationship. She knows Steve enjoys submitting to me but she sees him as the king of men when it comes to dominating her.
One of the reasons I was able to try switching is because I never saw submission as a weakness or switchery as a confusion. I never worried about what other people would think. I never hid what we were doing to protect my formidable reputation!!
I now get to dominate probably the most dominant man I have ever met and yet he's a man who I have never once heard bragging about how dominant he is. He doesn't need to. Its so natural that he can be adventurous with the other side and that makes him a realist just like me. It doesn't make him more savvy, it doesn't make him weaker or confused. It just makes him a fun human being who accepts all of this for what it is.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: What's with this great divide? - 4/14/2012 8:38:59 AM   
littlekitten1


Posts: 160
Status: offline 		THere's no rules for satisfaction... All I know is that I respond extremely well to a dominant force, responding in the way that tickles my fancy. But I also know that I'm not really a 'true' submissive. Way too difficult to work with, but if people are willing to put up with that, then good for me :)

So yea... I don't think people can be described, and I think that "switch", "Dom" and "Sub" is just here to make communication easier. And none of it is 'better'... The only thing that anyone should concern themselves with, is to test out to see what they respond the best to. That means they are better equipped to find their happiness..


It's healthy though, for a dominant to switch though, IMO, so he learns about the impact of certain toys and such ^^ But I wouldn't make that a requirement.

(in reply to tj444)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: What's with this great divide? - 4/14/2012 8:43:26 AM   
NiceButMeanGirl


Posts: 2756
Joined: 11/4/2011
From: Bellingham, WA U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Karmastic
how can you be the truest true blood dom or sub

Wow. How did I miss this part? There is no one real and true way. Stick around long enough and you will likely figure that out....

NBMG

_____________________________

I'm now SweetlySadistic1 on CollarSpace. NBMG is an old profile, please see my new one.


(in reply to Karmastic)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: What's with this great divide? - 4/14/2012 8:47:48 AM   
Bhruic


Posts: 985
Joined: 4/11/2012
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

You appear to be saying that the only people who are capable of giving thought, and being confident that they are playing the right role are dominants.



No... I am not saying that. I just happened to be talking about dominants in this thread. I mean the same for subs, or any role.

When I said "Dom in particular" I meant Dom, in this case.


< Message edited by Bhruic -- 4/14/2012 8:58:24 AM >

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: What's with this great divide? - 4/14/2012 8:51:44 AM   
MissImmortalPain


Posts: 2440
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline 		I have never known there was a great divide. I believe people should follow what is best for their own well being.

_____________________________

It is always by way of pain that we arrive at pleasure.

We must all go through a right of passage,and it must be physical, it must be painful,and it must leave a mark.

(in reply to Karmastic)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: What's with this great divide? - 4/14/2012 8:53:03 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bhruic
...are confident that they are best suited and happiest in one particular role - Dom in particular.

*laughs* Oh yes. I have given it a GREAT deal of thought. And the results of my thinking are that all the BDSM labels are ridiculously restrictive. I have decided not to submit.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Bhruic)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: What's with this great divide? - 4/14/2012 8:56:52 AM   
Bhruic


Posts: 985
Joined: 4/11/2012
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact



I have never cared much if I was in the majority or not, smart or not, authentic or not.  As I have often invited people over the years on these boards, come and meet Me for yourself to make your own judgement.  I'm not hard to find.  Feel free to come and say hello and decide for yourself.



LadyPact... My comment was not meant to be taken personally, or as a judgement of you or any particular person. I was just responding to your opinion. I just don't personally think that there are many GOOD Doms who are inflexibly Dom because they are so smart that they automatically understand the the needs and situation of people who are in roles that they themselves would never consider exploring. That's all... and yes, it is a personal opinion :) But personal opinions seem to be the stock in trade here.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: What's with this great divide? - 4/14/2012 9:02:17 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: poise
I suppose I fall in the "whatever gives this union the greatest joy" category.
How terribly pragmatic of you :) But that is exactly how I see it. My union with Carol is, by far, the most important thing in my life. Pretty much all decisions are made with that in mind. I am what I need to be in order to optimize the marriage... in a whole lot of ways not just this one. I was a corporate cog when I met her. Nowadays I'm damned near a hippy.

Over time, my "self" has been shaped and molded to be as good a fit for her as we can manage and that process continues. Nor does any of that affect my sense of "self". Being Carol's other half IS my self.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to poise)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: What's with this great divide? - 4/14/2012 9:02:51 AM   
Bhruic


Posts: 985
Joined: 4/11/2012
From: Toronto, Canada
Status: offline 		I'm not sure which hypothesis you are referring to? If I am expounding any particular single idea, it is that the broader ones spectrum of experience, the greater ones knowledge and understanding. I wouldn't call that a hypothesis though. It is borne out in human experience as an empirical fact.

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: What's with this great divide? - 4/14/2012 9:16:56 AM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
I was a corporate cog when I met her. Nowadays I'm damned near a hippy.

British Columbia will do that to you.

Incidentally, to make up for cyberpsychoanalyzing the two of you on a different thread, I'd like to suggest you take Carol to see Michael Waters perform if you have the opportunity. I know him in real life, though not well. He might not do much for you, but I suspect that Carol will consider it one of the top five concerts she has attended in her life. Yet another stupid hunch that has a good chance of being wrong.

http://ladybirdmusic.com/

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: What's with this great divide? - 4/14/2012 9:36:26 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		*laughs* Great tip. But you have nothing to make up for :) I agreed with your analysis in a humorous sort of way.

To this thread, Carol and I were just discussing why people get into the honor and truthfulness fetishes. She said something which certainly resonates with me.

"I think people probably focus on lying because it's external and easy... "he lied to me." <jab finger self-righteously> I think more about trustworthiness and trustfullness... both of which require a lot of introspection -- frequently unpleasant introspection."

That line would explain why those two fetishes are enough to immediately cut someone out of my life.. not simply as a lover... but even as a friend. MAYBE I'd accept an acquaintance with those attributes but it's unlikely.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to RedMagic1)
Profile   Post #: 40
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