RE: Bullying... the results

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angelikaJ -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/26/2012 2:15:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: dcnovice quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ DM, You assert that suicide is the coward's choice. It isn't. It happens when the pain someone is in exceeds a person's resources for coping with that pain. And thus they are afraid to go on, and think it's the only way out. It's retreating from life. Ie...a coward's choice. Fear has nothing to do with it except in the case of terminal illness. Pain is pain, whether it is emotional or physical in it's origin. Fear is about the future, suicide (for the most part) is about the immediate present; the pain someone is in now. It is why (to my knowledge) the most effective ways of preventing suicide are A) Getting them to postpone that decision B) Work on their coping skills Edit: verb tense I couldn't read this exchange without thinking of a passage from William Styron's masterly account of depression, Darkness Visible. That slim book has been a lifeline during more bouts than I care to count. "[T]he pain of severe depression [or, I suspect, severe bullying] is quite unimaginable to those who have not suffered it, and it kills in many instances beause its anguish can no longer be borne, The prevention of suicides will continue to be hindered until there is a general awareness of the nature of this pain. Through the healing process of time--and through medical interventions or hospitalization in many cases--most people survive depression, which may be its only blessing; but to the tragic legion who are compelled to destroy themselves there should be no more reproof attached than to the victims of terminal cancer." Thank you for posting that, dc.

joether -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/26/2012 3:50:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: joether I'll add that to the growing list of 'things that best discribe DargueMirror'. You could at least spell my name right if all you're going to do is make worthless personal attacks. You havent been respectful to anyone on this thread, why should I or anyone else be respect back at you? I will not waste any further time with you. You clearly can not understand any of my posts like an honest, decent, intelligent and mature adult. You cant answer questions related or not to the topic. You attack and belittle people akin to a bully. And you seem to enjoy such treatment towards others. I dont give an ounce of credibility or respect towards people I feel abuse others (whether in BDSM or not). I asked you a very important question. One that you simply ignored as irrelevant to the discussion even though, it was ironically quite important to the thread. Because of your inaction or inability to undestand the question, I feel there is no further reason to even consider anything you post as credibile or mature. Frankly, I'm surprised that the admins have allowed your antics to proceed for so long, when if any of us 'old timers' on this forum would be nailed for uttering one tiny three or four letter word to discribe you. Maybe they are just waiting for a good juicy item of yours to come along and ban you for good...

Kirata -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/26/2012 4:11:07 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether if any of us 'old timers' on this forum... You only lead him by 76 posts, "old timer." K.

joether -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/26/2012 4:30:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: joether if any of us 'old timers' on this forum... You only lead him by 76 posts, "old timer." But the different my fellow poster, is that I do not typically use one liners, but instead big paragraphs and plenty of them. I talk at length to get my point across. If I stated in a one liner, I would feel most people would not understand the spirit to which the information was written. Go look at his posts (including the recent ones on this thread). Every time he quotes something I state, it was with a line or two. Compare that to myself, in which I give a paragraph or two. Added to the fact that I've been on Cm longer then YOU!

dcnovice -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/26/2012 5:04:20 PM)
quote: Thank you for posting that, dc. You're welcome. If you deal with depression (or have a loved one who does), you might like Styron's book.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/27/2012 10:31:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ And in some cases, my knowledge (at least in regards to suicide, your assertion of coward[ice] and suicide prevention) is better than yours. As they're both opinions, the above statement is false.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/27/2012 10:39:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether You havent been respectful to anyone on this thread, why should I or anyone else be respect back at you? Bullshit. My first posts in any thread on any topic are never disrespectful. I post in nothing but a conversational manner until I am attacked, at which point I respond in kind. You, on the other hand, have been nothing but disrespectful each and every time Yvette addresses me. quote: ORIGINAL: joether I will not waste any further time with you. Outstanding news. But then, if that's true, why did your post continue for two more paragraphs after that statement? Why tell me you're not going to waste more time on me and then proceed to do just that? quote: ORIGINAL: joether You clearly can not understand any of my posts like an honest, decent, intelligent and mature adult. You cant answer questions related or not to the topic. You attack and belittle people akin to a bully. Calling the kettle black again, I see. quote: ORIGINAL: joether Frankly, I'm surprised that the admins have allowed your antics to proceed for so long, when if any of us 'old timers' on this forum would be nailed for uttering one tiny three or four letter word to discribe you. Maybe they are just waiting for a good juicy item of yours to come along and ban you for good... Actually no. It's because they already know what I've already told you. I don't make personal attacks until I get attacked. Conversation is just that -- conversation. Just because someone has a differing opinion does not mean they are being disrepectful or making a personal attack. Pity you can't see that.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/27/2012 10:41:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether But the different my fellow poster, is that I do not typically use one liners, but instead big paragraphs and plenty of them. I talk at length to get my point across. If I stated in a one liner, I would feel most people would not understand the spirit to which the information was written. Go look at his posts (including the recent ones on this thread). Every time he quotes something I state, it was with a line or two. Compare that to myself, in which I give a paragraph or two. Added to the fact that I've been on Cm longer then YOU! As if any of that matters.

SternSkipper -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/28/2012 1:10:31 AM)
quote: Hmmm.. I dont view a 4 million dollar judgement as a "lottery ticket" for the loss of being able to walk. And, as we both know, money talks, especially when its coming out of someone's wallet. Maybe, in the future, school officials wont just pass the buck and sweep these issues under the rug. I agree with Tazzy... There's a school up here and I forget exactly what town it is, but they're in the middle of a bullying suit and they now have a "no fucking nonsense" kind of approach to the problem just out of the fear to have to pony up a few mill for not dealing with the problem. In contrast my community is only starting to deal with it and we're hoping the new superintendent is taking us seriously. It's certainly not a case where the parents aren't involved. And frankly, if a community and particularly a school system know it's happening and get their pants sued off for punitive damages, I really don't care what euphemism is attached to the award as long as it causes the negligent to pay attention.

SternSkipper -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/28/2012 10:04:41 AM)
quote: This anti-bullying campaign is lame. Soon we will be unable to say nothing even remotely negative without being labeled as a bully. Yeah things would be different if this kid here 'stood up for himself' Rrrrrrrrrright... Yeah it's "lame" to want to prevent shit like this: http://www.whdh.com/news/articles/local/metro-west/12007319347980/suspect-in-recorded-sucker-punch-to-face-charges/#.T5wiy0Qxby0.google

DarqueMirror -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/29/2012 2:35:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SternSkipper Yeah things would be different if this kid here 'stood up for himself' Rrrrrrrrrright... Yeah it's "lame" to want to prevent shit like this: http://www.whdh.com/news/articles/local/metro-west/12007319347980/suspect-in-recorded-sucker-punch-to-face-charges/#.T5wiy0Qxby0.google You'd almost have a point if that sucker punching student was a bully. By their very nature, bullies don't usually hit and run, because they feed off the reaction to what they've done. Therefore, an anti-bullying campaign would do nothing to stop one student from sucker punching another.

Jaquin -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/29/2012 2:52:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror What if a meteor strikes while the bully is messing with you? You can "what if" all you like, it doesn't change th undeniable fact that bullies will always exist. Best to learn how to deal with that than to try and train it out of them. Exaggeration won't get you anywhere. The world could explode in 50 seconds from now and you'd never get to read this post, doesn't mean it's very likely. Much the same a meteor strike is so highly unlikely that it's no good as an example. Do you use that line to try and avoid work? "Oh sorry boss I can't do my job because a meteor may strike and the effort would just be wasted." However the chances that it's not just one bully but multiple bullies, or that the bully(/ies) bring a weapon are far more likely to occur and thus fall under the category of plausible and should be taken into account when assessing the potential situation. What I also don't get is why you think it's easier for victims to learn how not to be victims but think it's hard to teach bullies not to bully. Seeing as there are far more victims then bullies, statistically speaking it'd be more plausible to teach the bullies. Furthermore - in order to maintain status as a law abiding citizen - come adulthood bullies have to learn to behave as according to the laws of the region they reside in rather then teach them throughout their childhood that "It's okay to bully" because we let them be and focused on the potential victims instead. quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror Some will back down. Some won't. I've said more than once (and will repeat it for you one more time) tha standing up for yourself doesn't mean you won't get your ass kicked. It just means you are not a passive victim who has to run and hide. So it somehow makes it better to be an active victim then a passive one? The result is the same: you got your ass beat and you feel like shit. Knowing that you stood up for yourself doesn't suddenly make punches hurt any less, or make you feel any worse for yourself. So what's your solution to bullies who don't back down and who don't take 'standing up for yourself' sitting down? Keep standing up for yourself and keep getting beat on because somehow the knowledge that you're on the side of right makes everything magically better? quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror And would trying to "teach him that he hurt your feelings" have stopped him? No. So you agree that he wasn't going to stop - and yet you still seem to think that all it takes is to stand up for yourself. What's your solution for a bully like that?

erieangel -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/29/2012 4:37:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ And in some cases, my knowledge (at least in regards to suicide, your assertion of coward[ice] and suicide prevention) is better than yours. As they're both opinions, the above statement is false. Seeing as how I am a mental health professional, I'd say my knowledge of suicide prevention is far better than yours, DM, and that is not an opinion. I work with kids/young men 18-24, some of them in so much emotional pain that they cut themselves or take some pills or talk about it being "better if I'm not alive". The last thing they are is cowards!!! And the last thing I would ever tell any of them is to 'suck it up'. My son was bullied for years in school. In grade school, it was because he was one the smallest, scrawniest kid in his class. And then it was because of his dyslexia and his subsequent difficulties in reading. And then at 15, he came out as being gay. But the following year things changed and it wasn't because he "stood up to the bullies". Nope, he did something else. You see, despite having low reading skills, my son has always been somewhat of a computer nerd and he took the robotics class at school, also joined the robotic team. And the class wasn't filled with just nerds. A lot of jocks took that class as their "science" class that year, some of them being the very people who had been bullying my son forever. And guess what, my son ended up tutoring his bullies. To this day, he is still friends with some of those guys.

Moonhead -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/29/2012 4:54:00 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jaquin The result is the same: you got your ass beat and you feel like shit. Knowing that you stood up for yourself doesn't suddenly make punches hurt any less, or make you feel any worse for yourself. So what's your solution to bullies who don't back down and who don't take 'standing up for yourself' sitting down? Keep standing up for yourself and keep getting beat on because somehow the knowledge that you're on the side of right makes everything magically better? If anything, the victim's just going to get beat up a lot worse over that...

erieangel -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/29/2012 5:30:13 AM)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/28/anita-joost-elgin-mom-acc_n_1460282.html?ncid=webmail1 This is why the schools need to it, some parents are morons!!!!

DarqueMirror -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/30/2012 12:10:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jaquin Exaggeration won't get you anywhere. Useless, right! Kinda like an endless string of "what ifs." quote: ORIGINAL: Jaquin So it somehow makes it better to be an active victim then a passive one? Yep. Then the victim could at least feel like he did what he could and didn't cower away out of fear. I can tell you honestly even if I didn't "win" a fight against a bully, I felt tons better than the times when I just ran away. quote: ORIGINAL: Jaquin So what's your solution to bullies who don't back down and who don't take 'standing up for yourself' sitting down? Keep standing up for yourself and keep getting beat on because somehow the knowledge that you're on the side of right makes everything magically better? It's better than your solution of telling the bullies they are hurting the victims' feelings...as if they cared about the victims in the first place. quote: ORIGINAL: Jaquin So you agree that he wasn't going to stop - and yet you still seem to think that all it takes is to stand up for yourself. What's your solution for a bully like that? Keep fighting.

DarqueMirror -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/30/2012 12:13:58 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: erieangel Seeing as how I am a mental health professional, I'd say my knowledge of suicide prevention is far better than yours, DM, and that is not an opinion. I work with kids/young men 18-24, some of them in so much emotional pain that they cut themselves or take some pills or talk about it being "better if I'm not alive". The last thing they are is cowards!!! And the last thing I would ever tell any of them is to 'suck it up'. Ohhhhhhh so you "work with them." Of course! That gives you so much more knowledge than someone who IS one of them. Nice try. "Mental health professionals" like you are why I have no use for the whole lot of you. quote: ORIGINAL: erieangel My son was bullied for years in school. In grade school, it was because he was one the smallest, scrawniest kid in his class. And then it was because of his dyslexia and his subsequent difficulties in reading. And then at 15, he came out as being gay. But the following year things changed and it wasn't because he "stood up to the bullies". Nope, he did something else. You see, despite having low reading skills, my son has always been somewhat of a computer nerd and he took the robotics class at school, also joined the robotic team. And the class wasn't filled with just nerds. A lot of jocks took that class as their "science" class that year, some of them being the very people who had been bullying my son forever. And guess what, my son ended up tutoring his bullies. To this day, he is still friends with some of those guys. Sounds like your son fought back the best way he knew how -- with his mind. It worked too, didn't it?

Kirata -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/30/2012 2:18:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Jaquin quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror Some will back down. Some won't. I've said more than once (and will repeat it for you one more time) tha standing up for yourself doesn't mean you won't get your ass kicked. It just means you are not a passive victim who has to run and hide. So it somehow makes it better to be an active victim then a passive one? The result is the same: you got your ass beat and you feel like shit. Knowing that you stood up for yourself doesn't suddenly make punches hurt any less, or make you feel any worse for yourself. Submitting to bullying destroys a kid's self-esteem. Kids with good self-esteem do not commit suicide. Resisting or finding some way to manage the bully is in all cases by far the better response. So while I don't think the answer lies simply in teaching kids who are bullied how to fight, I do think Darque has a point that deserves credit. K.

joether -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/30/2012 4:29:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kirata quote: ORIGINAL: Jaquin quote: ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror Some will back down. Some won't. I've said more than once (and will repeat it for you one more time) tha standing up for yourself doesn't mean you won't get your ass kicked. It just means you are not a passive victim who has to run and hide. So it somehow makes it better to be an active victim then a passive one? The result is the same: you got your ass beat and you feel like shit. Knowing that you stood up for yourself doesn't suddenly make punches hurt any less, or make you feel any worse for yourself. Submitting to bullying destroys a kid's self-esteem. Kids with good self-esteem do not commit suicide. Resisting or finding some way to manage the bully is in all cases by far the better response. So while I don't think the answer lies simply in teaching kids who are bullied how to fight, I do think Darque has a point that deserves credit. K. Never forget that the ones being bullied arent looking to win a battle, but the war itself! They could have several/many moments in which they resisted the bully, but so what? Its that constant aggrivation on top of the normal school work and the pains of growing up, that simply start taking a toll on a kid's mind and body. As they are just worn down by the constant barrage of attacks from multiple directions and angles; even kids have their upper limits. It doesnt matter to the kid if he wins a battle, when he/she is simply being worn down by the onslaught of attacks. Add to that the bully's friends whom join in. It is one thing when the fight is 'one on one'; its another when its seven on one! And they dont have to even lay a finger on the kid to do the damage. And hate to rain down on your parade. Kids with otherwise good self-esteems take their lives all the time. Usually something just...snaps. It could have been related to a bully or not. Kids have a tendency to 'blow things out of proportion'. The sad part is, people are often left speechless as to what might have caused the kid to travel down that course of thought. And there is ALWAYS speculation to the reason(s).

Kirata -> RE: Bullying... the results (4/30/2012 5:02:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: joether And hate to rain down on your parade. Kids with otherwise good self-esteems take their lives all the time. Okay, I'll play. Research findings have indicated an inverse correlation between life stressors and self-esteem (Abramson, Metalsky, & Alloy, 1989; Garber, Robinson, & Valentiner, 1997; Kliewer & Sandier, 1992). Specifically a negative self-esteem predisposes adolescents to depression and other psychiatric difficulty (Garber, Robinson, & Valentiner, 1997; Heyman, Dweck, & Cain, 1992) [...] intercorrelations showed significance between suicidal ideation and self-esteem (r = -42, p < .001), suicidal ideation and negative stress (r = .33, p < .002), and negative stress and self-esteem (r = -.35, p < .001) (Table 1). Source: Wilburn, Victor R., Smith, Delores E., Stress, Self-Esteem, and Suicidal Ideation in Late Adolescents, Adolescence, Vol. 40, No. 157, Spring 2005 Low self-esteem has been found to be important in the prediction of suicidal ideation among high school students (Dukes and Lorch, 1989). The presence and severity of suicidal ideation in adolescents with affective disorders has been related to low self-esteem (Brent et al., 1986). Low self-esteem is also implicated in suicide attempts made by adolescents (Kienhorst et al., 1990). Furthermore, negative self-evaluations were associated with increased suicidal tendencies, number of suicidal gestures, seriousness of suicidal intent, and medical lethality of the attempt in a study of 64 adolescent psychiatric inpatients (Robbins and Alessi, 1985). Thus, self-esteem deficits appear to be directly related to suicidal tendencies, including both suicidal ideation and suicide attempts in adolescents. Source: Overholser, James C., Adams, Dalia M., Lehnert, Kim L, Brinkman, David C., Self-Esteem Deficits and Suicidal Tendencies among Adolescents, J. Am. Acad. Child and Adolescent Psychiatry, Vol. 34, No. 7, July 1995 Your turn. K.

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