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RE: Whats the difference - 4/26/2012 5:55:11 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

anyway, today he called me a fake, so we're toast.

Ya, I've gotten this when I set limits - plenty of fish in the sea.

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RE: Whats the difference - 4/26/2012 6:09:49 AM

Englishcrumpet

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yes my fakeness is all down to limits too -

,

........apparently we're suppposed to be super human, teflon skinned, altruistic and self destructive, no one told me that!!

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RE: Whats the difference - 4/26/2012 2:30:20 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
I can understand that maybe 50-100 years ago that might have been true in America. But every vanilla person in their 20s and 30s who I know engage in things like oral sex, doggie-position, etc. And none of these people have any interest in BDSM. I don't think I know a single person (and I'm being honest here, not trying to be facetious) who thinks anything beyond missionary is kinky. I even have vanilla friends who engage in anal sex (gasp!) who have ZERO interest in BDSM. To me BDSM is not really about sexual acts but more about either mindset, S&M, or both. And you can engage in BDSM without even engaging in sex.

Keep in mind that you live in New York City, your microcosm is not a fair representation of the rest of America. Oral was down right illegal in 13 states until 2003 when the Supreme Court told them they couldn't do that. Vibrators were illegal in several states until 2008 when the courts stepped in once again and vibrators are still illegal in Alabama. There are even people on this site who consider sex before marriage a huge taboo.

The sort of things that you and I might consider extremely tame or completely vanilla really can register to others as unthinkably kinky.

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RE: Whats the difference - 4/26/2012 10:04:03 PM

Alecta

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Englishcrumpet

anyway, today he called me a fake, so we're toast.

It's a;ways funny when that's the result of one trying to be realistic lol

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RE: Whats the difference - 4/26/2012 10:24:52 PM

LadyConstanze

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
Not sure what is meant by "kinky" as I would not normally categorize a blow job (even endless blow jobs) as kinky, but simply oral sex (a vanilla act, at best).

Kinky is in the eye of the beholder, far too many Americans consider anything beyond the missionary position to be kinky.

OK, I'm not American but to be honest, if you're having sex and you wonder if what you're doing is kinky or not, you're just not doing it right!

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RE: Whats the difference - 4/27/2012 12:54:41 AM

Englishcrumpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecta

quote:

ORIGINAL: Englishcrumpet

anyway, today he called me a fake, so we're toast.

It's a;ways funny when that's the result of one trying to be realistic lol

- yup! - bring reality into the equation and its doomed!!

GotSteel: wow, vibrators are illegal - now theres a state run by vanilla men if ever there was one! here in the UK there is an amazing amount of provincial taboo over what is kinky. a friend told me how a guy blindfolded her and fed her fruit and this was kinky apparently. i just thought 'wow, if only she knew what happened to me last week, she'd never talk to me again'.

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RE: Whats the difference - 4/27/2012 4:28:38 AM

Focus50

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Englishcrumpet

so.. after reading everything everyone has said im still wondering why it feels like vanilla kink and even, what vanilla kink is..!

right now it feels like giving without submission: which aint workin' - so maybe, for me anyway, kinky sex means submitting to things that are pretty mainstream in general, but possibly not easily available with a vanilla partner, ie, they dont want to gag during a blowjob or have their nipples twisted to screaming pitch, ergo - find youreself a submissive - only for me, i can and will submit to gagging during a blow job and i have submitted to having my nipples twisted harder than hell, but in a BDSM, Ms relationship when my submission to him gave the discomfort a purpose and a goal i was focused on -

anyway, today he called me a fake, so we're toast.

I'd have thought it obvious by now that it isn't any particular activity that's the problem so much as the lack of complementing dominant energy. You're willing to submit (to whatever) but I, as a Dominant, still wouldn't be content to just passively receive. You're doing your submissive part by "giving" but your "dominant" other isn't taking what's his, anyway. He hasn't set any D/s headspace for you, and so it feels like vanilla kink....

And it always does when a D/s dynamic relies solely on the submissive serving. I mean, the "giving" is all well and good blah blah but my experience of submissives is that they are far more receptive when made to do that which they're willing to do, anyway. That's Dominant and submissive energy combining for a greater, mutual fulfillment.

Soooo, back to the bj of my first post - where she could "do it better" if her hands were released from behind. Pfffft. It isn't about any sexual act (kink), or her willingness to please etc (even though that is highly relevant). Oral service is symbolic of one being dominant over another, and I set the headspace for her accordingly. So of course I'll have her hands tied behind, just as she'll be butt naked and kneeling. I'll be directing everything with a handful of her hair and I like to be in front of the big mirrors to occasionally twist her head so she can see herself and her predicament, as I verbally reinforce her place in our relationship.

And as I also alluded to in my first post, it isn't so much an act of sexual release, but one of domination and submission. Is she (or any woman) really gonna "do it better" when I'm just as likely gonna use my cock to tap out a tune on her forehead....

My Dominant perspective of your same topic (where I said above that a submissive's general willingness is highly relevant) is that I can't do my brand of oral service (for example) with a vanilla because she'd be too humiliated - which *never* ends well . I'll be in charge but a D/s relationship only works with a partner who appreciates that agreed hierarchy. I'm a Dominant, not an abusive sociopath....

I think your real problem is that you're in a relationship with that most common of D/s paradoxes (or oxymoron), a passive Dominant. That equates to me dominating a vanilla - crash and burn.... No wonder you're "a fake" - it's all your fault that he's not taking/claiming what's (sposta be) his. And if that isn't a red flag....

Focus.

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RE: Whats the difference - 4/27/2012 5:38:05 AM

ChatteParfaitt

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Unlike some I don't see this huge line in the sand between kinky sex and a D/s relationship. I think if you have kinky sex with enough undertones of domination and submission, that will eventually filter into the rest of your relationship.

Most of us began with kinky sex, I know I did, and that willingness to be kinky, to be let's say humiliated in the way Focus describes it, is what allowed me personally to open my mind to the possibility of a power exchange in a relationship. I don't think I am at all alone in this.

Although I can see, there is unequal levels of power in the relationship, or there's not, everyone is going to define that differently.

My relationship may be: he makes the final decision. Yours may be: he controls my every move.

As with most things regarding personal intimate relationships, one size doesn't fit all.

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RE: Whats the difference - 4/27/2012 6:25:10 AM

RedMagic1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Englishcrumpet

quote:

ORIGINAL: Alecta

quote:

ORIGINAL: Englishcrumpet
anyway, today he called me a fake, so we're toast.

It's a;ways funny when that's the result of one trying to be realistic lol

- yup! - bring reality into the equation and its doomed!!

Based only on your OP, it seemed more likely to me that you didn't invest the energy to build a safe space for him to be dominant. Whether that's true or not in this case, it's something you might want to think about, going forward. Most people on BDSM, and on these boards, will tell you that someone either is dominant or isn't. I disagree, and believe that men, especially if they have degrees and professional jobs in a northern European-based culture, can require a lot of support from their sub to allow themselves to express their true potential for relationship dominance and sexual sadism.

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RE: Whats the difference - 4/27/2012 2:34:40 PM

Focus50

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

Based only on your OP, it seemed more likely to me that you didn't invest the energy to build a safe space for him to be dominant.

I imagine we all appreciate the side benefit of mutual support that a relationship offers but geeeeez Red, I'm having some trouble getting my head around a "dominant" this precious and delicate. lol Are you really blaming the sub here, as the OP's dom now seems to be?

Obviously you still have to click as a couple (D/s & m/f) and that there are infinite shades of grey amongst Dom and sub levels but my "old school" mind says the Dom still leads and sub follows....

I know what it's like to be the "dominant" with a vanilla partner. Seemed like perpetual tension and frustration - but still not her fault (or mine) beyond that we were both in the wrong relationship.

Focus.

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RE: Whats the difference - 4/27/2012 7:22:19 PM

RedMagic1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
I imagine we all appreciate the side benefit of mutual support that a relationship offers but geeeeez Red, I'm having some trouble getting my head around a "dominant" this precious and delicate.

Taken to its logical conclusion, your argument would seem to imply it was impossible to recruit someone into kink. I'm sure we both know men and women who have encouraged their "vanilla" partners to take on a more dominant role in the relationship, successfully. I'm not placing blame, I'm encouraging responsibility. If the guy were here posting, I'd be talking to him too.

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RE: Whats the difference - 4/28/2012 4:11:49 AM

Englishcrumpet

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RedMagic: possibly its an 'energy' thing and so that makes it very personal to each person. so what i may respond to with respect to Dominance someone else might not - im not really saying he wasnt a Dominant, im sure he is, with the right person for him, but as Focus is saying, the psychological interplay is more important than the action.

Dominance (for me) hits my brain before it hits anywhere else. i can 'submit' myself to action all day long and then get up and walk off with no submissive feelings at all, but id much much rather not.

putting my finger on what it is that hits my brain, is really hard for me to define, but if im honest it isnt the play its the stuff inbetween. walking along a muddy path and steering me around the puddles, taking my hand, not me taking his, taking control of me long before the play enters into it and when it does its just a continuation of the control he has already taken.

that possibly all sounds a bit fuzzy and fluffy and im not a fragile petal, i can find my way around puddles perfectly well but for some odd reason Dominants have this inbuilt thing going on, least the ones that work for me do and its this unsaid thing thats saying 'im here to look out for you as well as hurt you' - that to me is the hot bit, the part where i know im with someone who is thinking about me aswell as what he wants from me. then it starts to cook.

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RE: Whats the difference - 4/28/2012 6:27:01 AM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1
Taken to its logical conclusion, your argument would seem to imply it was impossible to recruit someone into kink.

Here's a different "logical conclusion". Apparently, for some dominants, their sub/slave could do any damned thing at all and they would not feel "unsafe" in the slightest. That sure as hell isn't my reality. Carol said some things two weeks ago which cut pretty deep. I am "precious" enough to have it affect our dynamic.

How the heck do people get into relationships where they don't matter to each other? Carol is absolutely able to build either a "safe" or an "unsafe" place largely because she matters to me.

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RE: Whats the difference - 4/28/2012 3:27:04 PM

Focus50

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50
I imagine we all appreciate the side benefit of mutual support that a relationship offers but geeeeez Red, I'm having some trouble getting my head around a "dominant" this precious and delicate.

Taken to its logical conclusion, your argument would seem to imply it was impossible to recruit someone into kink. I'm sure we both know men and women who have encouraged their "vanilla" partners to take on a more dominant role in the relationship, successfully. I'm not placing blame, I'm encouraging responsibility. If the guy were here posting, I'd be talking to him too.

That'd be a brand of logic I'm not familiar with....

Western society doesn't exactly encourage "unequal" relationship dynamics so I'd imagine we were all recruited/inducted/lured into bdsm in some form or another, including yours truly. And yeah, it started with a fascination with a particular "kink" - bound women. Took quite a few more years to realise that bondage was just the physical expression of a greater need - to control my woman.

As I've already said, I've been that unfulfilled Dominant "stuck" with a vanilla partner. I'd imagine it's no different to being a straight hetero in a gay relationship (if that happens) - that it just can't go anywhere beyond the cosmetic, and who wants to live a lie! You have to start with the right, *complementing* partner, FIRST, then you work out the personal attraction & compatability issues etc.

From my experience, it's reasonable that the onus is on the Dominant - the one who leads and takes charge - to provide that safe environment in earning a sub's trust. And yeah, she hasta gel with my brand of dominance to make a happy D/s relationship work - but the Dominant FIRST. So no, it's not up to the sub (or the OP in this case) to provide a "safe place" for a Dominant to express his true self. I, the Dom, am the decision maker; if I don't have that with a particular sub, I'll move on - simple!

I called the OP's partner a "passive dominant". That's code for selfish vanilla who enjoys being served. That may not be entirely his fault - that if a sub treats her (vanilla) partner as the relationship dominant, then yeah, he becomes accustomed to being served or getting his way. And there's a huge difference between a natural leader vs someone put in charge. We've probably all seen the latter in the workplace....

Btw, I'm not suggesting it is the OP's fault in this instance. We're all familiar with the otherwise clueless trolls and wannabe's who pervade these sites seeking the naive newbie meat....

Note I didn't pick on the HNG's here.... ;)

Focus.

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RE: Whats the difference - 4/29/2012 12:40:05 PM

fucktoyprincess

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
I can understand that maybe 50-100 years ago that might have been true in America. But every vanilla person in their 20s and 30s who I know engage in things like oral sex, doggie-position, etc. And none of these people have any interest in BDSM. I don't think I know a single person (and I'm being honest here, not trying to be facetious) who thinks anything beyond missionary is kinky. I even have vanilla friends who engage in anal sex (gasp!) who have ZERO interest in BDSM. To me BDSM is not really about sexual acts but more about either mindset, S&M, or both. And you can engage in BDSM without even engaging in sex.

Keep in mind that you live in New York City, your microcosm is not a fair representation of the rest of America. Oral was down right illegal in 13 states until 2003 when the Supreme Court told them they couldn't do that. Vibrators were illegal in several states until 2008 when the courts stepped in once again and vibrators are still illegal in Alabama. There are even people on this site who consider sex before marriage a huge taboo.

The sort of things that you and I might consider extremely tame or completely vanilla really can register to others as unthinkably kinky.

Of course, this is fair, and I said as much in my post (that because of where I live my perspective may be different). Although before I lived in New York, I did live in a much more conservative part of the country. And people still engaged in oral sex, legal or not. Just like my gay friends who engaged in anal sex before it was legal to do so. I'm not sure the legality of sexual acts actually drives peoples decisions and choices when it comes to sex - last I checked prostitution is illegal in most states....doesn't seem to stop people from hiring prostitutes...just saying....

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RE: Whats the difference - 4/29/2012 12:50:28 PM

JanahX

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Im more into the kink part - the D/s part will come into play if the guy is smart and its unintentional. Im not into the stereotype D/s relationships where there are written rules and everything is drawn out beforehand. Im too much of a free-spirit to want to conform to someone elses preconceived concept of what their ideal D/s relationship should look like.

For me - life is not a written movie or play, and being in touch with who I am, I know Im not someone who has to have life drawn out for them. I got my own stuff to do.

If someone says to me - hey this is what needs to be done and it deems logical in my brain, then theres a good chance that I'll do it. When someone starts right off the bat with "Im the boss applesauce" - Im left wondering why would they think that? I'm like PROVE IT - most times they prove they cant even tie their own shoes.

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RE: Whats the difference - 4/30/2012 2:22:37 AM

Focus50

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Ummmm, okayyyyy. But you do know this is a bdsm site where many do live relationships with an unequal control dynamic, right?

If you're all vanilla and happy, then great. Me, I'm not convinced your "glass is 1% full" perspective is helping anyone here, incl you. <shrugs>

For the record, while my relationships do include rules for her to obey, it's not nearly so scripted, disjointed and alround phony as you may imagine.

Curious - why are you here at CM?

Focus.

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RE: Whats the difference - 4/30/2012 2:03:41 PM

JanahX

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Different people enjoy different levels of dynamics -

One person might enjoy to be caged, chained, whipped, degraded and sucking cock 24/7 -

Whereas someone else actually is away from their house working 12 hours a day - and then has little free time to get their shit together, but might have a few hours for some freaky-deaky shit in the bedroom, that would actually be very hard to bring up in a general conversation with a stranger they would like to meet other than one of these type sites.

Because your dynamics are more radical than others - does not make anyone any more or less under the very large umbrella label called BDSM.

I myself, prefer a more natural approach of the D/s relationship - where as others may prefer a prescript itinerary.

< Message edited by JanahX -- 4/30/2012 2:09:36 PM >

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RE: Whats the difference - 4/30/2012 2:22:47 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess
I'm not sure the legality of sexual acts actually drives peoples decisions and choices when it comes to sex - last I checked prostitution is illegal in most states....doesn't seem to stop people from hiring prostitutes...just saying....

That's not my angle, I'm citing morality laws as a gauge for social norms.

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RE: Whats the difference - 4/30/2012 6:44:55 PM

subbyinlosangele

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Englishcrumpet

quote:

ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess

FR

Not sure what is meant by "kinky" as I would not normally categorize a blow job (even endless blow jobs) as kinky, but simply oral sex (a vanilla act, at best).

well in a way thats the issue - BJ's arent kinky, having youre nipples twisted hard isnt kinky, even rimming isnt - all of that is within the remit of vanilla sex IMO

but being face fucked till you gag may not be within the remit of vanilla sex, having youre nipples twisted off the map the same, even endless bj's, if the giver isnt into giving endless bjs, it starts to enter into a more Ds arena because submission, rather than egalitarian choice is required to some extent.

for someone who is basically Ms, my pleasure is in giving pleasure and satisfaction even if im not necessarily getting of on the activity myself. but without the Ms it feels more like vanilla kink because the willingness to 'suffer' for my M's pleasure isnt there and because i said 'no' to rimming which to me is egalitarian choice and not Ms.

so.. after reading everything everyone has said im still wondering why it feels like vanilla kink and even, what vanilla kink is..!

right now it feels like giving without submission: which aint workin' - so maybe, for me anyway, kinky sex means submitting to things that are pretty mainstream in general, but possibly not easily available with a vanilla partner, ie, they dont want to gag during a blowjob or have their nipples twisted to screaming pitch, ergo - find youreself a submissive - only for me, i can and will submit to gagging during a blow job and i have submitted to having my nipples twisted harder than hell, but in a BDSM, Ms relationship when my submission to him gave the discomfort a purpose and a goal i was focused on -

anyway, today he called me a fake, so we're toast.

Seems like the issue is you're worried too much about terminology. If someone calls you a "fake," the best response is, "Listen, I don't really care how other people define kinky sex, vanilla sex, dominant, submission or anything else. I don't care what's 'real' to one person, and what's 'fake' to another person. I am not trying fit into anyone else's notions or fantasies of who I should be. What I can tell you is this is what I'm about - A, B, C. [Fill in the key points that are important to you.] If that works for you, great. If not, let's both move on and find someone who does work for each of us."

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