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RE: Tell Angie's List: drop your support of Rush Limbaugh - 4/24/2012 8:26:19 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Why is pointing out that the people who are keen to support Rush's freedom of speech weren't extending any such courtesy to Nathalie Gaines partisan?
People who are in favour of free speech should support both.

Don't try to dance with me. I don't go that way. What you "pointed out" was people "bitching about the nasty liberal hive mind," of which there have been precisely zero, zip, nada in this thread.

Moverover, you weren't even here in 2003 and neither was the Politics and Religion forum! Do you have a hard-on for this "Gaines" girl? This is the eighth time you've whinged about that issue.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/24/2012 9:13:02 AM >

(in reply to Moonhead)
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RE: Tell Angie's List: drop your support of Rush Limbaugh - 4/24/2012 8:36:51 AM   
Moonhead


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I just find it pathetic that nobody who's bitching about poor Rush's freedom of speech being infringed had an issue with that. Particularly given that Rush was among those calling for the Dixie Chicks to be lynched back in the day.

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RE: Tell Angie's List: drop your support of Rush Limbaugh - 4/24/2012 8:54:23 AM   
Iamsemisweet


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gee, I don't know. I don't speak for Angie's list, unlike you. All I can do is exercise my right to tell them what I think, and then stand by my words.

Progressives don't use Angie's list? Really? Is that some kind of progressive "thang"? They aren't joiners, or something?

I swear, this thread just gets funnier and funnier. What I especially find amusing is all the people going on about Rush's right to Freedom of Speech, while criticizing others for exercising their own. Signing a petition is protected speech too, isn't it?

Since you guys are so gung ho freedom of speech, I am going to assume you all went out and bought Dixie Chick tickets and CDs a few years ago. After all, you may not like what they said, but surely you should have been willing to spend a few bucks to uphold their right to freedom of speech. Right?
Lu
quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

K.




As are your petty online petitions...

Do you really think Angie's list gives a shit about what progressives think? Especially of those they know who'll never pay the subscription price to use the service?



_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to subrob1967)
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RE: Tell Angie's List: drop your support of Rush Limbaugh - 4/24/2012 9:07:32 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

As are your petty online petitions..


Examples of the Power of Online Activism

These days it's hard to imagine significant change happening that's not greatly influenced by so-called armchair "slacktivists." Web 2.0 activism has transformed the power structure, putting power in the hands of the people and forcing authorities to be accountable like never before. The frustrations with G.W. Bush and the subsequent enthusiasm, fundraising, and election of Obama and a Democrat-controlled Congress are well-documented examples fueled by online petitions and other online activism.

While most successful online actions never attain such recognition, here are a few lesser known examples where online petitions played a key role:

Laura Ling and Euna Lee Freed

In March of 2009, independent journalists Laura Ling and Euna Lee were imprisoned in North Korea, charged with grave crimes against the state, and sentenced to 12 years of hard labor. Their friends and family rallied to bring attention to their plight, and created petitions on Care2 to raise awareness and call on North Korea to free the women. Close to 90,000 people signed these petitions, helping to keep the story in the national spotlight for months. In August, former President Bill Clinton traveled to North Korea and negotiated Laura and Euna's release. Read more here as well as Laura Ling's thank you letter to Care2 petition signers.

US Military Changes Course

When Sergeant Gwen Beberg attempted to take home a dog she had saved off the streets of Baghdad as a puppy, the US military confiscated the dog to destroy it. A friend helped her start a Care2 petition that quickly gained 70,000 signatures and made headlines around the world. The US Military responded to the outcry, changed course, and returned "Ratchet", the dog, to Beberg. They now live at home in Minneapolis.

David and Sean Goldman Reunited

David Goldman's son Sean was abducted by his biological mother and taken to Brazil against international law five years ago, and David has been fighting to bring him home ever since. His friends started a petition on Care2 to help his cause, and 60,000 people from around the world signed. The magnitude of the petition helped spawn rallies and media attention, and eventually David received support from the U.S. Congress and the Obama Administration. On Christmas Eve, 2009, David and Sean were finally reunited.

Roxana Saberi Freed

Roxana Saberi, an American journalist with dual Iranian-American citizenship, was arrested in Iran in late January 2009 and imprisoned without charges for over a month. In April, based on a closed, one-day trial, Ms. Saberi was sentenced to eight years in prison for charges of spying for the U.S., a charge the White House vigorously denied as "baseless." Almost 28,000 activists signed the Care2 petition urging the Iranian government to free Roxana Saberi. These signatures and the resulting global spotlight put pressure on both the Iranian and US governments. On May 11th, American journalist Roxana Saberi walked out of prison in Iran, and is now free.

Matthew Shepard Act Passed

President Obama signed the Matthew Shepard & James Byrd Jr. Hate Crimes Prevention Act into law as part of the Defense Authorization Act. The US Congress recognized the importance of this legislation after 25,000 Care2 members signed petitions and called their members of Congress to urge them to support this important piece of legislation.

HIV Travel Ban Lifted

For 22 years people with HIV/AIDS were banned from entering the U.S. Thousands of Care2 members, along with our nonprofit partners, petitioned the Obama administration to end this fear-based policy... and it worked the repeal of this ban is now in effect.

EPA Regulates Greenhouse Gas Emissions

Thousands of Care2 members have submitted signatures to the Environmental Protection Agency in the last few years urging the U.S. government to regulate greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions. This past September, the EPA announced a proposal to get us there, requiring large power plants and industrial facilities to obtain operating permits to cover their emissions, with an annual threshold of 25,000 tons of carbon dioxide emissions. Read more about this promising first step.

Climate Bill Passes House

In joint campaigns with environmental groups and unions, Care2 members have sent hundreds of thousands of messages to their legislators calling for them to pass strong climate change legislation and our voices are finally being heard. Last June, the U.S. House of Representatives passed a comprehensive climate change bill called the American Clean Energy Security Act.

Obama Admin Protects Roadless Forests

In just two weeks, more than 8,000 Care2 members sent letters to Interior Secretary Ken Salazar, urging him to take action to stop a Bush-era plan to open up old-growth forests in Oregon to clearcutting. The Obama administration listened and agreed!

Candidly, I hesitate to even raise such headline grabbing stories, because it plays into the misconception that the headline is the success point. It's not. In fact, success is often what's not in the headlines - like the successful battles (including hundreds of thousands of Public Comments sent by Care2 members e.g. see here) to keep drilling out of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR). And, sometimes even if a battle is lost despite vast online petitioning, the outcome is significantly influenced (such as the effort to keep snowmobiles out of Yellowstone. Although it failed to meet its ultimate objective, the huge public opposition resulted in stricter regulations and immeasurably greater awareness of the hazards of snowmobiles in national parks).

There are many more examples, and I've listed some below, but no matter what kind of change you wish to see in the world - whether it's related to climate change, the economy, health care, the power of money in our political system, or anything else - the fundamental solution is always more citizen engagement (unless you happen to own one of those Big Banks). Even the most greedy corporations and self-interested elected officials will do what the people want if enough of us get engaged by raising our collective voices and voting with our ballots and dollars. Online activism is a key ingredient for a more engaged, better educated, and effective democracy.

I'll leave the final word to an inspiration of mine, BodyShop Founder, Anita Roddick. As she so keenly observed, "If you think you're too small to have an impact, try going to bed with a mosquito."

More Examples

http://www.frogloop.com/care2blog/2010/4/28/slacktivism-why-snopes-got-it-wrong-about-internet-petitions.html

(in reply to subrob1967)
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RE: Tell Angie's List: drop your support of Rush Limbaugh - 4/24/2012 9:08:14 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I just find it pathetic that nobody who's bitching about poor Rush's freedom of speech being infringed had an issue with that. Particularly given that Rush was among those calling for the Dixie Chicks to be lynched back in the day.

How would you know? You weren't here then.

In fact, most of the people who are here now weren't. The freaking P&R forum wasn't even here!

And p-fucking-s, it's Nathalie Maines. Not "Gaines".

K.




< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/24/2012 9:11:15 AM >

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Tell Angie's List: drop your support of Rush Limbaugh - 4/24/2012 9:33:09 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I don't think "freedom of speech" means what you think it does.

Well, let's find out. What is it, exactly, that I think it means that you're saying it doesn't?

K.

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
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RE: Tell Angie's List: drop your support of Rush Limbaugh - 4/24/2012 9:51:31 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

If it's that simple a case, I hope that everybody who's been bitching about the nasty liberal hive mind picking on poor Rush and his advertisers was showing an equal degree of support for (say) Nathalie Gaines' right to Free Speech over that diss of the chimp back in '03.



I had no problems with the Dixie Chicks bashing Bush. Well not until they turned tail and immediately denounced their remarks. Then I just thought they were pussies for buckling under.

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(in reply to Moonhead)
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RE: Tell Angie's List: drop your support of Rush Limbaugh - 4/24/2012 9:51:39 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

I just find it pathetic that nobody who's bitching about poor Rush's freedom of speech being infringed had an issue with that. Particularly given that Rush was among those calling for the Dixie Chicks to be lynched back in the day.

How would you know? You weren't here then.

In fact, most of the people who are here now weren't. The freaking P&R forum wasn't even here!

And p-fucking-s, it's Nathalie Maines. Not "Gaines".

K.




Wow......look at the smart guy.......all full-o-facts


There however was.....and always has been public opinion,political debate and discourse......it didn`t just start when Al Gore invented the internet.


And what Moonhead said was correct.


I know ,I know......you weren`t comparing........you were contrasting.................


General reply:


This new found power to fight-back and the evening of the playing field has gotten cons miffed and angry.

They really don`t know what to do.

Even with rightist/yellow journalism and very own tv network to spin stories and make up bullshit ones.......they still can`t make headway.......

If anything......the nasty/angry/put-upon-whiny/conservative malcontent is losing favor and popularity among average Americans.

The netz are also making it extremely hard to for people to get away with bullshiting.That old saying(getting it wrong I`m sure)"A lie gets half-way around the earth before the truth puts it`s boots on" isn`t as true as it used to be.

I think bratfart`s last ugly kill,ruining Shirley Sherrod`s career,was the last ambush rightists will get away with.

They`re still there and operating but no one takes them seriously anymore(accept for cons and they don`t count)as evidenced recently with bratfart`s piece about the president`s radial college days.


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/24/2012 9:58:55 AM >


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(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Tell Angie's List: drop your support of Rush Limbaugh - 4/24/2012 9:56:29 AM   
thishereboi


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well I don't know about angies list, but our local radio station received a petition to drop Rush and according to the guy I talked to there, they are aware that the majority of the signers had probably never heard of their station before this and they are not going to change their programming based on it.

_____________________________

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(in reply to subrob1967)
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RE: Tell Angie's List: drop your support of Rush Limbaugh - 4/24/2012 10:05:56 AM   
Iamsemisweet


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The freedom of speech that is protected by the Constitution is freedom from GOVERNMENT restrictions on speech.  At that, some speech is more protected than others, i.e. political speech vs. commercial speech.  Some speech isn't protected at all (i.e. threats or defamation).  Since no one is proposing that Rush's show be made illegal, his right to freedom of speech is fully intact.  Others can also exercise their right to free speech (i.e., speech not restricted by the government) by contacting advertisers and voicing their disapproval.  

"Freedom of Speech" does not mean I can't tell someone to shut the fuck up.  I do it all the time, in fact.  Nor does it mean I can't, by legal means, attempt to get some asshole taken off the air.

What do you think it means?
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

I don't think "freedom of speech" means what you think it does.

Well, let's find out. What is it, exactly, that I think it means that you're saying it doesn't?

K.



_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Tell Angie's List: drop your support of Rush Limbaugh - 4/24/2012 10:11:54 AM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

well I don't know about angies list, but our local radio station received a petition to drop Rush and according to the guy I talked to there, they are aware that the majority of the signers had probably never heard of their station before this and they are not going to change their programming based on it.

That`s always been the reaction of the folks who bring us rush......denial.


All it would take would be a revenue dip and your station manager would see the light.....


Ain`t the 'nets' great!......


Not sure if most folks realize it or not but the airwaves are public property....part of the commons and it doesn`t matter that the folks disgusted with rush don`t listen to his show.

Someone who doesn`t take in summer plays in the public park(or use the public parks at all) is still be allowed to object(and be listened to) if there was a pornographic or similarly objectionable production being staged there.

If rush wants to sell his filth.......let him do it on a pay station and not on our public airwaves.


< Message edited by Owner59 -- 4/24/2012 10:12:57 AM >


_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

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RE: Tell Angie's List: drop your support of Rush Limbaugh - 4/24/2012 10:12:36 AM   
kalikshama


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... the progressive reaction against Limbaugh’s offensive spew isn’t anti-speech. It’s the exact opposite. It is the proper exercise of more speech.

See, Thomas Jefferson (whom the dittoheads have heard of and whom they love to invoke, but have never actually read) and Ben Franklin and all the other Founding Fathers and John Milton, upon whose ideas so much of our ideology about free speech was based, expected it work exactly this way. Planned it. Designed it. They knew people would say things. They knew people would say controversial things. Wrong-headed things. Damnable, appalling, hateful, dishonest things. But, they also knew that when it happened, other people would respond. And in the end, Milton believed, “the truth will out.” That is, informed, engaged citizens will be able to distinguish truth from falsehood, just speech from corrupt. So, person A says something. Person B disagrees and rebuts person A. Each tries to persuade the community to his/her point of view. Community hears the argument and decides. That, folks, is how freedom works. Unfortunately, too many Americans have in their heads an idea of free speech that is simply wrong.

For instance, neither the basic principle of freedom of speech nor the First Amendment says the following:

- you have the right to be heard (you have the right to speak, but nobody has an obligation to listen – the right to hear or not to hear is the unwritten right upon which it’s all based)

- you have the right not to be disagreed with (nope, just the opposite – freedom to speak exposes you to other people’s right to speak and subjects you to the judgment of the community)

- other people have an obligation to provide you a forum in which to speak (nope – you have a right to speak, but you have no right to speak in my yard)

- others have an obligation to sponsor or finance your speech (no – choosing to advertise or otherwise patronize your speech is a function of the other party’s freedom and they have the right to turn the faucet on and off as they wish and for whatever reasons they wish)

- you have a right to be free from the consequences of your speech (no – if you offend the community, they have the right to end their association with you; they have the right to speak freely to your sponsors, if you have any, and to ask said sponsor to cease supporting you)

- you have the right to be opposed only by those whose values mirror yours (duh, no – people have the right to oppose you for the noblest of reasons or the most despicable; if they opt for the latter, then they become subject to the rights of others within the community to speak and act against them)

So, to sum up:

Rush Limbaugh’s rant against Sandra Fluke was within the scope of his right to free speech and did not constitute a First Amendment breach. (Fluke may sue him for libel, which is an established legal procedure accounted for by the principals articulated above.)

Rush’s detractors were exercising their free speech and 1A rights in protesting his actions. They were within their rights to petition his sponsors. And his sponsors were within their rights to abandon him (or to stick with him, if they so chose).

Consumers are within their rights to patronize a business for whatever reason they like, including everything from price to selection to political position.

And commenters in S&R threads, as well as callers to sports talk shows and idiot sports talk jocks, are within their rights to express their objections, even if they are uneducated and factually wrong. See, the people who wrote the First Amendment planned on that.

Full article: http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2012/03/05/limbaugh-supporters-demonstrate-again-that-conservatives-do-not-understand-how-free-speech-works/

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Tell Angie's List: drop your support of Rush Limbaugh - 4/24/2012 10:17:43 AM   
Mupainurpleasure


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Rush's freedom of speech is not being infringed upon. He is free to say anything he wishes. he can praise the the Lord's army as fredom fighting christians and insinuate it is obama's muslimness and hostility to christians that led him to help persecute those freedom fighters. I can actively lobby his advertisers and make it clear they advertise with a man who praises a group that amputates villaigers to inspire fear, kidnaps and forces children to kill each other to train as child soldiers and is the most vile group on the planet then i will never purchase their goods. It may effect his commercial enterprise and I only hope end his radio show but it does not infringe on his free speech rights at all. Bein able to broadcast ignorance on public owned airwaves isnt a right it'[s a commercial venture and if you dont like a product you dont support it. he can spout his hate all he wants being able to broasdcast your speech to millions isnt a right. One liberal boycott is a threat to the 1st amendment a generation of the same tactics being used over and over by the right is an effort to creata moral society

He has no more right to be on the radio than I do. it's a commercial enterprise not a exercise of 1st amendment rights. No one is demanding he be censored . I think a case could be made morally if not legally they are public airwaves and anyone broadcasting that toxic stew of hate is working against the public good and as they are leased for the public good in violation of the agreement

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RE: Tell Angie's List: drop your support of Rush Limbaugh - 4/24/2012 10:23:38 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

well I don't know about angies list, but our local radio station received a petition to drop Rush and according to the guy I talked to there, they are aware that the majority of the signers had probably never heard of their station before this and they are not going to change their programming based on it.

That`s always been the reaction of the folks who bring us rush......denial.
They were not denying anything, just stating their take on the petition

All it would take would be a revenue dip and your station manager would see the light.....
That's why he is listening to the stations listeners and not an online petition

Ain`t the 'nets' great!......
I'll let you know after I see if the "nets' have screwed Martin out of any chance for justice.

Not sure if most folks realize it or not but the airwaves are public property....part of the commons and it doesn`t matter that the folks disgusted with rush don`t listen to his show.
So if you owed a business you would take the advice of people who would never frequent it over those who have been loyal customers?

Someone who doesn`t take in summer plays in the public park(or use the public parks at all) is still be allowed to object(and be listened to) if there was a pornographic or similarly objectionable production being staged there.
When did rush start doing porn?
If rush wants to sell his filth.......let him do it on a pay station and not on our public airwaves.
I wasn't talking about public radio.




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(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Tell Angie's List: drop your support of Rush Limbaugh - 4/24/2012 10:26:20 AM   
thishereboi


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He has a right to spew bs.
You have a right to say you are not going to use angies list because of it.
and angies list has the right to say they don't care.

Now it could end there or you could threaten even more harassment if they don't bow down to your demands.

sorry but it still sounds like you are all for free speech as long as they say what you want them to say.

_____________________________

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RE: Tell Angie's List: drop your support of Rush Limbaugh - 4/24/2012 10:38:53 AM   
Mupainurpleasure


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

He has a right to spew bs.
You have a right to say you are not going to use angies list because of it.
and angies list has the right to say they don't care.

Now it could end there or you could threaten even more harassment if they don't bow down to your demands.

sorry but it still sounds like you are all for free speech as long as they say what you want them to say.

He has no inherent right to broacast and there is no wrong in boycotting it's as american as the fasmily reserch council

< Message edited by Mupainurpleasure -- 4/24/2012 10:40:29 AM >

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RE: Tell Angie's List: drop your support of Rush Limbaugh - 4/24/2012 10:42:50 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

"Freedom of Speech" does not mean I can't tell someone to shut the fuck up. I do it all the time, in fact. Nor does it mean I can't, by legal means, attempt to get some asshole taken off the air.

I didn't intend to imply that people don't have the same right as Rush to express their views. If I gave that impression, I apologize. In my view, freedom of speech means that he gets to express his views and you get to express yours, including what you think of his. But this goes further than that. Trying to have him silenced by threatening the revenue of his advertisers amounts to extortion, and in my opinion does not reflect an understanding of what freedom of speech really means.

K.

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
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RE: Tell Angie's List: drop your support of Rush Limbaugh - 4/24/2012 10:52:21 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

"Freedom of Speech" does not mean I can't tell someone to shut the fuck up. I do it all the time, in fact. Nor does it mean I can't, by legal means, attempt to get some asshole taken off the air.

I didn't intend to imply that people don't have the same right as Rush to express their views. If I gave that impression, I apologize. In my view, freedom of speech means that he gets to express his views and you get to express yours, including what you think of his. But this goes further than that. Trying to have him silenced by threatening the revenue of his advertisers amounts to extortion, and in my opinion does not reflect an understanding of what freedom of speech really means.

K.


BULLSHIT!!!!!!

A group of people are using their right to free speech to tell advertisers, "we care that you support Rush's vile words with money derived from business we do with you. Therefore we will cease doing business with you if you continue to support Rush."

Nothing could be truer to the American ideal.

(in reply to Kirata)
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RE: Tell Angie's List: drop your support of Rush Limbaugh - 4/24/2012 10:59:02 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

BULLSHIT!!!!!!

A group of people are using their right to free speech to tell advertisers, "we care that you support Rush's vile words with money derived from business we do with you. Therefore we will cease doing business with you if you continue to support Rush."

Nothing could be truer to the American ideal.

Well I suppose one could argue that extortion is the American way of doing business, and bribery (it's flip side) the American way of conducting politics. But I would call either an ideal.

K.

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Tell Angie's List: drop your support of Rush Limbaugh - 4/24/2012 11:14:41 AM   
tazzygirl


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For me, on line protests and business boycotting are no different than protest marches.

Boycotts are quite legal... and an effective avenue to influence change. They have, historically, affected revenues of businesses for decades. Are they no longer allowed?

Petitions are also quite legal... unless that has changed.

Limbaugh has every right to say whatever he wishes. He also may be held responsible for what he says. I am sure on that you and I can agree. No one has demanded the advertisers drop those stations... just that they not advertise during his show.

Many changes have come about through boycotts and protests. The earliest form of financial protests were in 1830, when the National Negro Convention encouraged a boycott of slave-produced goods. Surely you arent saying this is any different. But, in case you are, could you explain how?

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RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 40
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