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mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss of au... - 5/4/2012 3:08:00 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		I have been kicking a thread topic around in my head for a couple days now. The thing is, I want to begin the thread in such as way as to leave the topic as wide open as possible.

So, with this in mind, let's begin with some definitions and see where the convo leads.

What is your definition of mental domination? How do you use it or how has it been used on you?

How would you define internal enslavement? Again, how does it play out in your relationship (or not)?

Do you find this type of domination extreme, or do you view it as part n parcel of a "normal" M/s or D/s relationship?

Is there a certain personality type that makes internal enslavement easier?

Can you go "too far" with mental domination or internal enslavement?

What about loss of autonomy? Do all s-types incur loss of autonomy? Is that the point, from the dominant's perspective?

If your s-type loses too much autonomy, what steps do you take to rectify this? Can you "undo" internal enslavement and still keep the slave?

Please feel free to expand and explore on these fascinating topics.

Thank you, CP





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RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 3:27:14 PM   
littlewonder


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quote:

What is your definition of mental domination? How do you use it or how has it been used on you?


For me it means that he knows me well enough to know what I need, when I need, how, etc.

quote:

How would you define internal enslavement? Again, how does it play out in your relationship (or not)?


..It means he is in my head to the point that I can no longer say no to him, no matter how much I want to, I can't bring myself to do so because I trust him, I love him and I know he makes great decisions and that means I don't ever have to worry about making them and worrying I made the wrong choice.

quote:

Do you find this type of domination extreme, or do you view it as part n parcel of a "normal" M/s or D/s relationship?


No. For me it's quite normal in an M/s relationship. I don't think it's as common in D/s relationships because usually submissives don't give up their rights to say no. They usually hold onto their control in certain areas of their lives. In an M/s relationship, I gave up all those rights. Nothing is off limits for him to delve into in my/his life.
quote:


Is there a certain personality type that makes internal enslavement easier?


Yup, at least for me. I'm not going to be internally enslaved to everyone on the planet, although I am a submissive personality. I may do what others tell me to do because I don't like conflict, but that is a choice I always make. With him, there is internal enslavement because I don't even think twice most times about doing something he tells me to do. Even during those times when I may think twice and have a difficult time doing them, I still obey or take the consequences if I don't. I do it with him because I love him, I trust him with all my heart, he makes wise decisions and has shown that to me in his own life even before I met him, he's responsible, has all the characteristics in a man I was searching for. He's never given me any reason to ever doubt him.


quote:

Can you go "too far" with mental domination or internal enslavement?


I think you can if you don't choose wisely as to who you are going to be internally enslaved by. I didn't rush into a relationship with Master. We'd known each other for a few years before even ever getting involved. If you find you have a Master who is charming and yet manipulative in a negative way but makes poor choices in his life, then yeah it can go too far.


quote:

What about loss of autonomy? Do all s-types incur loss of autonomy? Is that the point, from the dominant's perspective?


I absolutely adore the loss of autonomy in our relationship. I hate being in charge. I had leading. I hate making decisions. I hate being the center of the attention. I don't think all submissives lose autonomy but do believe if you are in an M/s relationship, that's kinda the point of the relationship.

quote:

If your s-type loses too much autonomy, what steps do you take to rectify this? Can you "undo" internal enslavement and still keep the slave?


While I have lost all autonomy he still forces me to make choices in my life without him but if I make the wrong choice he'll make sure it's corrected and force me to correct it if I can. He still wants me to be able to function in the world when he's not around. But it's his choice to make me do those things, not mine...so really....it's still a loss of autonomy lol. There are times I beg him to make a choice because I absolutely hate to but he makes me anyway.

I think you can undo internal slavery but then you would no longer be a slave imo. If we ever decided to forgo the M/s in our relationship, I would no longer be his slave but I would still be his friend most likely but I doubt we'd be in a long term relationship any longer. We simply would no longer view each other in the same way and it would be awkward.


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RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 3:40:37 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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Status: offline 		Thank you very much for your responses, this is the kind of thing I am looking for.

Now that I know these things about you, would you say you have been "conditioned" by your Master to please him?

(BTW: If you don't like that word, what word do you like?)

How did this "conditioning" take place, as in, can you give us examples you feel comfortable sharing?

Do you feel you are a personality that is easily conditioned? Why or why not.

And let me answer this one. I have to say, with the right person, I am pathetically easy to condition. And I think this is because on some level I need it so badly, and when I get it, I just let go. It's a natural balance to my very dual personality.

I totally get what you are saying about loss of autonomy. I love it with this man! I trust him so, it's all good. It has lowered my stress level so much. I am a different person with him.

Do you think you can selectively condition a person so that they lose autonomy only in ways that are preferable?

Or does this type of mental domination *always* mean a lengthy time is needed before the s-type gets his/her autonomy back?



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RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 3:41:12 PM   
Karmastic


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I believe there are two polar opposites of mental "mental domination/internal enslavement".

At one extreme end of the spectrum, one person (the s) is totally brainwashed or powerless in real life, and the other (the d) uses that to control the person against the person's "best interests" (that's another discussion what that is).

At the other extreme, is one person willingly ceding their autonomy to meet their own s need (to please, or whatever, another discussion). And, the other person (the d) cultivating and leading that exercise to meet their own needs (to control, or whatever, another discussion).

We all fall somewhere between these two extremes, and it's very hard to say where one crosses the metaphorical line. This is of course all affected by so many other factors, not the least important being the individuals involved, and their unique interactions.

As a dominant man (but newb to scene) who's taking it to the next level, I haven't experienced the issue of coming anywhere near stepping over that metaphorical line; my own empathy in not wanting to push previously more "vanilla" has stopped me.

I will go out on the limb and say that the first type of extreme mental domination I mentioned is very wrong, immoral, selfish, and unhealthy for all. Even the other extreme at the other end of the spectrum still raises the hairs on my neck. I.e., while I may fantasize about true IRL TPE control with someone who really wants to give that, the concept still bothers me intellectually.

edit ps - i used d/s, but really meant it to apply to all, including m/s.

< Message edited by Karmastic -- 5/4/2012 3:42:46 PM >

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RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 3:47:58 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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Status: offline 		Okay, but let us try to focus our thinking. Mental domination by the d-type leads to internal enslavement by the s-type, can we agree on this statement?

Now I can see (TY, BTW) that the entire point of my thread was not just to learn about how other's define things and what others do or don't do, but to learn their opinions on: How much is too much?

Where do you personally draw the line on mental domination and internal enslavement?



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RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 3:50:47 PM   
littlewonder


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Status: offline 		I don't know that I would call it conditioned. I see it more as trained and just simply getting to know his likes, dislikes, etc....He would tell me to get his coffee or tea for him. I knew after only a few dates how he liked it since I paid attention to him when I was with him. I watched and learned and remembered. Now I just automatically make him a cup of tea when he walks through the door because I know it's the first thing he usually wants. There are many other things that are very similar but that was just one example. Then there are things that took me awhile to do his way such as in pain play because I'm not a masochist. He used the consequences way of training that....I have a choice...do it the way he wants or do it another way he knows I hate just as much if not more or find just as difficult. I've learned that over time that if I don't do it that the consequences are always much worse so I don't even fight it now.

As for being easily internally slaved....yeah, I am. I admit that. I'm a submissive personality and I have chaos, stress, conflict and well...thinking lol. I do enough of that at work, school, etc...lol. Plus when I am with someone I love and trust as much as him, I give my full to them. I give them everything I can give them and if I could give more, I would. I become ensnared by them and find it difficult to pull away. When I was first with Master there were times I wanted to leave but I just couldn't. He had become an integral part inside of me. Now, he's become so much a part of me that I rarely think about it which makes our lives I think, run even smoother. The less stress for both of us, the better.


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RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 3:56:38 PM   
IrishMist


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quote:

What is your definition of mental domination? How do you use it or how has it been used on you?

How would you define internal enslavement? Again, how does it play out in your relationship (or not)?

For me, these two are pretty much one and the same. I can't see myself being internally enslaved without him mentally dominating me at the same time.
quote:

Do you find this type of domination extreme, or do you view it as part n parcel of a "normal" M/s or D/s relationship?

I see it as normal; on both sides. The mental domination and the internal enslavement.
quote:

Is there a certain personality type that makes internal enslavement easier?

No
quote:

Can you go "too far" with mental domination or internal enslavement?

Absolutly; just as you can go too far in any form of relationship.
quote:

What about loss of autonomy? Do all s-types incur loss of autonomy?

No
quote:

Is that the point, from the dominant's perspective?

In MY experience; yes.

I know you left the questions open ended; however, it kind of limited how I answered

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RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 4:00:19 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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Status: offline 		Thank you again, this is the kind of great response I wanted from this thread topic. The symbiosis if you will between those who have to be mentally condition, and those who love that ensnarement, and I would say LIVE BETTER FOR IT, and their D-types.

I've talked to a few s-types on this issue, and they all think they are better for it. It has just come naturally to them, and their personality type doesn't seem to matter. It's something they want/need.

So in internal enslavement a natural need of the submissive?

And you d-types? How does being able to mentally dominate someone effect you and your life?

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RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 4:02:25 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		Yes, is is kinda limited how you answered. Please take time to think about it and give us your perspective, w/o feeling the need to "answer questions."

If you can, and TY.

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RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 4:02:25 PM   
DesFIP


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Status: offline 		The problem I have with IE is that I think I'm less happy now. I do things to please him even if they make me uncomfortable and unhappy. I wind up with conflicts because he wants me to enjoy stuff, but I don't. The only enjoyment I get out of it is knowing that he's happy as a result. But if he doesn't articulate it, then I feel like a double failure.

We've talked about this but he gets very focused during play and doesn't say much, about the only things he does say are either directions or criticisms. In the past, I'd get positive feedback after play but these days with the house full of young adults, there really isn't any time after to talk it over. As a result I feel worse and worse and am beginning to tense up when he does want to play. Which guarantees I'm not going to enjoy it, and as one of his top favs is forced O's, it means I can't orgasm so then he's unhappy, and so on.

But neither of us really wanted TPE. We were both clear that we wanted me to maintain some independence. Unfortunately he's a steamroller and I just got flattened.

The other thing is that I'm losing skills because I never get to practice them. He disapproves of me driving because I can't drive in the dark. As a result he has decided that he has to do all the driving for fear it will be dark when I need to come home. What this means is I wait around until he is willing to take me where I have to go, and then I'm feeling guilty for interrupting his day. On those occasions he would like me to drive someplace it's frequently not possible. I haven't been further than the two miles into town in the past three years. Telling me now to go on the Thruway and drive five hours just isn't going to happen. I would need months to relearn the skill.

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RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 4:06:50 PM   
Karmastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Okay, but let us try to focus our thinking. Mental domination by the d-type leads to internal enslavement by the s-type, can we agree on this statement?

Now I can see (TY, BTW) that the entire point of my thread was not just to learn about how other's define things and what others do or don't do, but to learn their opinions on: How much is too much?

Where do you personally draw the line on mental domination and internal enslavement?



thank you for that.

yes, i agree it leads to internal enslavement, to the extent the s allows it to be so, with brainwashing being the one extreme.

how much is too much? sorry to be vague and general, but for me, it's when things are happening or being done that aren't in the best long term interests of the s. that can be a result of a selfish dom or master, or from an S's need to go too far and be hurt or scarred (physically or emotionally) to learn a life lesson on their own road. i have problems with both.



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RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 4:11:36 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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Status: offline 		Well, yes of course. It's bad when it's to the detriment of the s-type. But how do you know when that is? See Des' post above.

If the s-types only enjoyment is the d-types enjoyment, then that D better make sure the s knows how much it is appreciated. This is some complicated mojo. On the one hand, I *want* to be taken for granted, just, not too much.

Certainly not enough to feel bad (been there, done that).



< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 5/4/2012 4:12:19 PM >

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RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 4:17:44 PM   
littlewonder


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Status: offline 		I guess that's one thing I've been very lucky about. He's never really taken me for granted. He may go for awhile without noticing something or that he's been tied up in himself but I never say anything to him about it. Why? Because he's good at getting lightbulb moments when it hits him one day that he's been so wrapped up in everyday life, that he's kinda put me on the backburner. Then he'll come to me and tell me how much he loves and appreciates me.

And that makes all the difference to me for internal enslavement...knowing you don't have to be concerned...about anything if your Master has the characteristics to pull it off correctly.

I remember in the beginning when I would say something to him about not forgetting to do something silly and he'd give me this look and say "what do you take me for? Of course I wouldn't do that" and then I'd feel stupid. I was so used to having to remind the men in my life about even the tiniest little things in life that one should just know to do or not to do. With him, I don't worry about it anymore.


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RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 4:23:31 PM   
Karmastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Well, yes of course. It's bad when it's to the detriment of the s-type. But how do you know when that is? See Des' post above.

If the s-types only enjoyment is the d-types enjoyment, then that D better make sure the s knows how much it is appreciated. This is some complicated mojo. On the one hand, I *want* to be taken for granted, just, not too much.

Certainly not enough to feel bad (been there, done that).



I hadn't read Des' post, just did.

she didn't ask me, so I'll try to be extra respectful here...she herself described her unhappiness, and understandably so. sounds like a downward spiral that i hope she addresses with him. he seems to care very much, so maybe purple type people can help her gain a framework to build better communication (with her dom or master) that will be needed.

that's a verbose way of saying that i think what she described, in her own words, is crossing the line. in her case, it's not the dom being selfish (he doesn't seem to be). and it's not the S intentionally being self-destructive (since she appears to be actualized enough to be able to see her situation rationally).

it seems to be poor communication. e.g., my mother had same night driving limitations. but there's no reason why she couldn't drive during the day, especially locally. something seems to have got lost in that communication between her and her dom or master.


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RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 4:27:44 PM   
IrishMist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Yes, is is kinda limited how you answered. Please take time to think about it and give us your perspective, w/o feeling the need to "answer questions."

If you can, and TY.

Hmm...Ok lol.

I stated, that in my eyes, mental domination and internal enslavement go hand in hand. I can't see one being present without the other. Mental domination was his ability to totally, and completely control every aspect of my personality and life. Internal enslavement was my response to that. I completely gave myself over to him, to the point that yes, I would have placed my life in danger if he had asked me to.
It gave me a structure to my life that I needed very badly at that time; and it was something that took me a long time to recover from when he passed away.

For me, I saw this as a perfectly normal part of our lives. I saw the same in other couples that we knew in real life. It was not until after his death that I came to realize that, for most people, this type of relationship was not the norm.

As for personality types...no, I don't see this as something that comes easier to certain people. Look at me for instance. I am not submissive; yet, I thrived under this kind of control...even if I often pushed his buttons just for the hell of it.
It has been my experience with others, that those who look for and thrive under this type of relationship; have all different types of personalities.

Yes, a person can go too far with this; and more often than not, they do. I believe though, that those are the ones that really have no idea of what they are asking for, or doing. It takes a hell of a lot of responsibility to take control of someone under these circumstances; you literally hold their life in your hands ( and I am not referring to 'play', I am referring to a person's life, literally )

Loss of automony.
No, I never lost my automony ( and by this I refer to my own will ). I always had the choice to stay or go, to do or not do, etc etc. I often acted on not doing lol . I never WANTED to leave him though. It was a choice to stay.
And no, I don't believe that all s-types lose their autonomy. Some do, some don't.
As for it being the point. I believe that yes, most dominants want this lose of autonomy. I think they have this idea that if a submissive or slave does not lose their autonomy; then it means that they don't trust them. So, they work towards this.

Myself...even though I have not been in a relationship since he passed away, I know for a fact that I could not settle for less than the same again. It's the structure that goes with this that is the most beneficial to me.

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RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 4:28:50 PM   
Karmastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder
I remember in the beginning when I would say something to him about not forgetting to do something silly and he'd give me this look and say "what do you take me for? Of course I wouldn't do that" and then I'd feel stupid. I was so used to having to remind the men in my life about even the tiniest little things in life that one should just know to do or not to do. With him, I don't worry about it anymore.


bwa hahahahaha! like, "drive safely!"? even tho it's a common courteous thing to say to someone when they're leaving in a car, it's irritating to me. it took me years to finally break that habit for someone like my mom, but it was easy to break that habit with girlfriends (vanilla dom).

if i may ask, why did you feel the need to remind the previous men in your life; i.e., why did you worry about it with them? did they not show they could successfully do whatever it is you were warning about, or did they just not try to control you? duh me, maybe obvious answer here.

< Message edited by Karmastic -- 5/4/2012 4:33:26 PM >

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RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 4:31:41 PM   
punisher440


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Status: offline 		I'll answer the questions you've asked and my answers will reflect how it works in opinion. First,I see mental domination as getting inside your submissive's head,finding out what makes them tic.Using this information in the relationship so it takes care of both partners needs.

Second,of course the internal is a big part of any long term relationship,without it what you have is a play partner IMO.If you have your sub/slave's mind,the body will follow.This dynamic might not be what others seek,but for me it is and I have no problem waiting until I find the right one that craves/needs/wants the same.

Third,while I can't speak for anyone else,this is a large part of my relationship.Is it the main part? Probably not,for I try to have a mixture of it all,from the bondage to the spanking,from the mental to the physical.I see it this way,while I like lobster,would I want it for every meal? Probably not.

Forth,while some of the s types are more "into it" than others,I think most enjoy it on some level.Some want a deeper more binding level than others though.Every one of us,no matter which side of the kneel we are on see things differently.

Fifth,sadly yes,there are a few that you can take too far.Do I want a brainless s type that can not function in the real world? No! I want one that can willingly submit to me yet can still handle certain things as needed.

Sixth,To a certain point,in most M/s D/s relationships,the s gives up a certain amount of autonomy,some more so than others.IMO, part of the dynamic is the power exchange even if it is not total.

Seventh,here is where so many relationships fall apart.On some,if you give too much autonomy,the s type can feel that the M/D does not care or is not dominant enough.But on the other hand,it is very hard to undo a too heavy a hand.It's a balance and one that takes time and care to keep that way.Taking the time to talk and make sure both are happy within the relationship can make a very big difference.

The above is just my opinion and what works for me,I know others might have vastly different views and dynamics that work for them.

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RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 4:38:44 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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Status: offline 		Your whole post spoke to me, but the following, sang:

quote:

It's the structure that goes with this that is the most beneficial to me.


I'm not sure it is all so easy for an s-type to see that step by step loss of autonomy. Some parts of that feels so good. For me, it took a few years of that before I even knew it was happening (the first time).

In my current relationship, it's much different, there is more trust, I have a better idea who I am, I have more leeway to be who I am, but still, the loss of autonomy is there. I am much more aware this time.

Incrementally I am losing ground so to speak, it's what's happening, I can't help it. Is there a way for the s-type to know where too much ground has been lost?



I'm still an easy touch, though. I have seriously let down some barriers.

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RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 4:41:42 PM   
littlewonder


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Status: offline 		I guess for me too much is lost when I can no longer function in the world and/or it harms someone else around me, other than me. This is probably why he makes me make decisions even though he knows I hate it. But I still run everything by him first because I don't trust my own decisions lol.


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RE: mental domination, internal enslavement, and loss o... - 5/4/2012 4:51:28 PM   
TNDommeK


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

What is your definition of mental domination? How do you use it or how has it been used on you?

How would you define internal enslavement? Again, how does it play out in your relationship (or not)?

For me, these two are pretty much one and the same. I can't see myself being internally enslaved without him mentally dominating me at the same time.
quote:

Do you find this type of domination extreme, or do you view it as part n parcel of a "normal" M/s or D/s relationship?

I see it as normal; on both sides. The mental domination and the internal enslavement.
quote:

Is there a certain personality type that makes internal enslavement easier?

No
quote:

Can you go "too far" with mental domination or internal enslavement?

Absolutly; just as you can go too far in any form of relationship.
quote:

What about loss of autonomy? Do all s-types incur loss of autonomy?

No
quote:

Is that the point, from the dominant's perspective?

In MY experience; yes.

I know you left the questions open ended; however, it kind of limited how I answered

quote:

For me, these two are pretty much one and the same. I can't see myself being internally enslaved without him mentally dominating me at the same time.


I have to agree with this, I think the mental aspect is more important to Me than the physical aspect of things. There is an old saying that goes "capture the mind and the body will follow". This has validity with Me and how I do things. To a safe degree of course.

_____________________________

Goddess of Duck Lips and Luxurious Hair
The working Fin Domme
Professional con artist, swindler, trixster, extortionist

Our snark-nado needs more cowbell


(in reply to IrishMist)
Profile   Post #: 20
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