The True Job Creators (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message


Musicmystery -> The True Job Creators (5/18/2012 9:54:07 PM)

Finally, someone who gets it.

Nick Hanauer is a founder of Second Avenue Partners, a venture capital company in Seattle specializing in early state startups and emerging technology. He has helped launch more than 20 companies, including aQuantive Inc. and Amazon.com, and is the co-author of two books, “The True Patriot” and “The Gardens of Democracy.”

It is astounding how significantly one idea can shape a society and its policies. Consider this one.

If taxes on the rich go up, job creation will go down.

This idea is an article of faith for republicans and seldom challenged by democrats and has shaped much of today's economic landscape.

But sometimes the ideas that we know to be true are dead wrong. For thousands of years people were sure that earth was at the center of the universe. It's not, and an astronomer who still believed that it was, would do some lousy astronomy.

In the same way, a policy maker who believed that the rich and businesses are "job creators" and therefore should not be taxed, would make equally bad policy.

I have started or helped start, dozens of businesses and initially hired lots of people. But if no one could have afforded to buy what we had to sell, my businesses would all have failed and all those jobs would have evaporated.

That's why I can say with confidence that rich people don't create jobs, nor do businesses, large or small. What does lead to more employment is a "circle of life" like feedback loop between customers and businesses. And only consumers can set in motion this virtuous cycle of increasing demand and hiring. In this sense, an ordinary middle-class consumer is far more of a job creator than a capitalist like me.

So when businesspeople take credit for creating jobs, it's a little like squirrels taking credit for creating evolution. In fact, it's the other way around.

Anyone who's ever run a business knows that hiring more people is a capitalists course of last resort, something we do only when increasing customer demand requires it. In this sense, calling ourselves job creators isn't just inaccurate, it's disingenuous.

That's why our current policies are so upside down. When you have a tax system in which most of the exemptions and the lowest rates benefit the richest, all in the name of job creation, all that happens is that the rich get richer.

Since 1980 the share of income for the richest Americans has more than tripled while effective tax rates have declined by close to 50%.

If it were true that lower tax rates and more wealth for the wealthy would lead to more job creation, then today we would be drowning in jobs. And yet unemployment and under-employment is at record highs.

Another reason this idea is so wrong-headed is that there can never be enough superrich Americans to power a great economy. The annual earnings of people like me are hundreds, if not thousands, of times greater than those of the median American, but we don't buy hundreds or thousands of times more stuff. My family owns three cars, not 3,000. I buy a few pairs of pants and a few shirts a year, just like most American men. Like everyone else, we go out to eat with friends and family only occasionally.

I can't buy enough of anything to make up for the fact that millions of unemployed and underemployed Americans can't buy any new clothes or cars or enjoy any meals out. Or to make up for the decreasing consumption of the vast majority of American families that are barely squeaking by, buried by spiraling costs and trapped by stagnant or declining wages.

Here's an incredible fact. If the typical American family still got today the same share of income they earned in 1980, they would earn about 25% more and have an astounding $13,000 more a year. Where would the economy be if that were the case?

Significant privileges have come to capitalists like me for being perceived as "job creators" at the center of the economic universe, and the language and metaphors we use to defend the fairness of the current social and economic arrangements is telling. For instance, it is a small step from "job creator" to "The Creator". We did not accidentally choose this language. It is only honest to admit that calling oneself a "job creator" is both an assertion about how economics works and the a claim on status and privileges.

The extraordinary differential between a 15% tax rate on capital gains, dividends, and carried interest for capitalists, and the 35% top marginal rate on work for ordinary Americans is a privilege that is hard to justify without just a touch of deification

We've had it backward for the last 30 years. Rich businesspeople like me don't create jobs. Rather they are a consequence of an eco-systemic feedback loop animated by middle-class consumers, and when they thrive, businesses grow and hire, and owners profit. That's why taxing the rich to pay for investments that benefit all is a great deal for both the middle class and the rich.

So here's an idea worth spreading.

In a capitalist economy, the true job creators are consumers, the middle class. And taxing the rich to make investments that grow the middle class, is the single smartest thing we can do for the middle class, the poor and the rich.





MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 12:07:24 AM)

 
How idiotic little Nicky is...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

...if no one could have afforded to buy what we had to sell, my businesses would all have failed and all those jobs would have evaporated.



Hmmm... and where does the idiot think the money from said consumers comes from so that they can "afford" to purchase?!!  From JOBS, maybe?!!  Hint to Nicky... people without jobs have NO MONEY to "afford" to purchase.  Someone with money creates a job, the person is paid for their job, and then POOF... they can now "afford" to purchase.  Imagine that?!!

quote:



...only consumers can set in motion this virtuous cycle of increasing demand and hiring.



Uhhh... no... only consumers with jobs/income can purachse -- those without jobs/income cannot.  Gee Mr. Wizard, is it really that simple?!!  Why yes... yes it is.

quote:



...millions of unemployed and underemployed Americans can't buy any new clothes or cars or enjoy any meals out.



Uhhh... yeah.  So the key, then is to encourage business to hire -- not discourage them with threats of higher taxes, or imposing moronic legislation such as Obamacare or Dodd-Frank.

quote:



The extraordinary differential between a 15% tax rate on capital gains... and the 35% top marginal rate on work for ordinary Americans is a privilege that is hard to justify



Maybe someone needs to tell Nicky DipShit that "ordinary Americans" ALSO only have to pay "15% tax on capital gains" -- so there is no alleged "privilege" to anyone.  EVERYBODY PAYS 15% ON CAPITAL GAINS.  Period.

quote:



...taxing the rich to make investments that grow the middle class, is the single smartest thing we can do



Hmmm... so the moron thinks increased taxes on "the rich" will somehow be distributed to the "middle class", instead of going towards our government's uncontrollable spending?!!  Someone tell Nicky NumbNuts even if we raised the Capital Gains tax to 30%, it would take over 43 years of collecting this additional tax revenue to just equal the Federal budget deficit for 2011 alone. (more info here)

What a fuckin' idiot. [8|]

 
 




SadistDave -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 3:02:17 AM)

Sounds like little Nicky Hanauer doesn't understand that Aldous Huxley's Brave New World was a work of fiction...

-SD-





SilverMark -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 3:11:45 AM)

@MasterSlave
:Maybe someone needs to tell Nicky DipShit that "ordinary Americans" ALSO only have to pay "15% tax on capital gains" -- so there is no alleged "privilege" to anyone. EVERYBODY PAYS 15% ON CAPITAL GAINS. Period. "

....Wrong, there are many ways around Capital gains taxes if you are wealthy. Loss carry forwards can wipe out CG taxes entirely, don't have enough? buy another company's losses. Re-invest the CGs, Put the profits into Trusts, Charitable donations....for EVERY tax there is a method of avoidance built in. The more wealthy you are the more people you can hire to avoid taxation on your wealth. Not too difficult!




SilverMark -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 3:29:11 AM)

PS the "AVERAGE" American taxpayer usually doesn't pay capital gains taxes short of selling a property without re-investing the funds, It is 0 if it is your primary residence. The wealthy will use gains as income,only paying 15% tax, as opposed to say 35% on regular income. Not a bad savings even if you don't wish to avoid the CG tax! If you qualify and invest in small businesses, the wealthy can also avoid CG taxes.....The Small Business Jobs Act of 2010 exempts 100% of the taxes on capital gains for angel and venture capital investors on small business investments if held for 5 years. Amazing isn't it?




DarkSteven -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 9:31:48 AM)

Nick Hanauer's article is a radical simplification of what I've been claiming for a while.

The truth is that, to make a viable business, two sources of money are needed: capital from investments, and revenue from sales. In our country, currently, there's plenty of investment money just waiting for good investments, and not enough consumer demand. In other words, the GOP's standard argument about how important investment type money is (which has resulted in tax breaks for the wealthy as well as a lower cap gains tax rate) holds no water whatsoever at this point. Actually, on the face of it, the contention that capital funding is more important than money from sales, is just plain ridiculous.

Hanauer downplays the importance of capital investments. While I agree with him for the USA, there ARE economies elsewhere (pre-breakup USSR economies are an example) where there is rampant consumer demand but no means of supplying capital to allow businesses to meet that demand.




Moonhead -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 9:35:03 AM)

It's pretty definitely the case that smaller businesses are often kept open by people from the lower end of the economic scale, though. He has that much dead right.




Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 9:56:01 AM)

Hmmm. Let's see....snotty little girl from kink web site, or extremely accomplished entrepreneur. That's a tough call. But I've had enough of the playground crap here. Looking at just your actual points (you did manage to raise a couple) and what you're missing about them--

1) Your jobs question begs the question. The current dogma isn't creating jobs. He addresses this. More of the same isn't going to yield different results.

2) Yes, all Americans pay the same 15% capital gains rate. His point (which admittedly he doesn't explicitly clarify) is that the wealthy can pay predominantly 15%, while average Americans pay predominantly income tax. Even 401k money, since it was tax deferred, will be taxed as income as its withdrawn.

From there, you're confusing the examples with the message. I agree raising capital gains taxes probably wouldn't solve much, and taxing just the top 1% isn't going to do much either. We do, however, have a tax structure that's FAR more "rich friendly" than we had a few decades ago, and we're paying for it. All we've done is cut revenue and help the top brackets, while the middle brackets are stagnant and the lower bracket is struggling.

Spending is a separate matter, and you're speculating there. From that logic, all revenue enhancement would be bad, because you've plugged in an automatic rule that it will be spent. Thus, all we can do is continue to go downhill. No. We can stop adding unfunded tax cuts, wars, and programs. If we want it, we pay for it. We return to earlier tax codes, which worked far better. Opportunity still abounds, it's just spread more widely--and THAT creates jobs, both consumer-driven (as he discusses, dead-on--it's part of why Henry Ford paid outrageously high labor, so they could buy his cars) and small business driven (which is the majority of business, not wealthy initiatives).

If anything is "moronic," it's defending the status quo, which clearly isn't working well--except for the top bracket.

What resonates with me about Nick is not so much his political message as his practical one. I work with people all the time about changing their defeatist (though they don't recognize this at first) view of the economy and the business world, and open their eyes to the wealth of possibilities in front of them, once they approach things differently.

That's what, for example, Amazon did--a new model. And it's a model that allows multiple small businesses to pile on and participate as affiliates. THAT kind of inclusive thinking, of attention to suppliers, labor, customers, and end users, and over the long term, not just the quick sale, is what builds successful businesses -- and new jobs.









Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 9:59:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Nick Hanauer's article is a radical simplification of what I've been claiming for a while.

The truth is that, to make a viable business, two sources of money are needed: capital from investments, and revenue from sales. In our country, currently, there's plenty of investment money just waiting for good investments, and not enough consumer demand. In other words, the GOP's standard argument about how important investment type money is (which has resulted in tax breaks for the wealthy as well as a lower cap gains tax rate) holds no water whatsoever at this point. Actually, on the face of it, the contention that capital funding is more important than money from sales, is just plain ridiculous.

Hanauer downplays the importance of capital investments. While I agree with him for the USA, there ARE economies elsewhere (pre-breakup USSR economies are an example) where there is rampant consumer demand but no means of supplying capital to allow businesses to meet that demand.


You and me both, Steven. He's applied what I've been doing in my business work to a macro-economic scale. You'd be amazed what you can start on a shoe-string, and I help people start to see that and get going. We are resource rich, and investment is just not a problem here--tight credit is. But there are other sources of resources often overlooked.

Your point about other economies is of course technically correct, but as you note, it just doesn't apply to our situation in the U.S.




Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 10:00:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SadistDave

Sounds like little Nicky Hanauer doesn't understand that Aldous Huxley's Brave New World was a work of fiction...

-SD-




He seems to be doing pretty well for himself, and bringing a lot of people along with him.

Might be worth listening to him.




MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 11:14:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

...there are many ways around Capital gains taxes if you are wealthy. Loss carry forwards can wipe out CG taxes entirely



Ummm... WRONG!!!  This may be a revelation to class-warfare spouting zombies, but EVERYONE CAN CARRY FORWARD CAPITAL GAINS LOSSES -- not just the "wealthy".  That's right... ANYONE!!!  Thus, as I stated, there is absolutely NOTHING concerning Capital Gains that isn't EXACTLY THE SAME FOR EVERYONE!!!





MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 11:22:06 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

He seems to be doing pretty well for himself, and bringing a lot of people along with him.  Might be worth listening to him.



Glad to hear this is your view, as ROMNEY is "doing pretty well for himself" as well, and "might be worth listening to" -- does that mean you'll be voting for ROMNEY then?!!  Oh wait... he's not a Lib-Idiot -- so I'm sure you'll be IGNORING your OWN advice.





Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 11:25:23 AM)

quote:

and bringing a lot of people along with him.

Missed a spot. An important spot.



quote:

ROMNEY is "doing pretty well for himself" as well, and "might be worth listening to" -- does that mean you'll be voting for ROMNEY then?

You'll note that I'm not dismissing him as a moron either. I think he's out of touch, not stupid.

I'm not voting for Nick for President either. I'm saying he has a better model, more inclusive and on much firmer structural ground.

And that clinging to the current model isn't working--and hasn't been working--because it's structurally flawed.





MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 11:31:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

and bringing a lot of people along with him.


Missed a spot.



You missed the OBVIOUS... do you actually think all the businesses Romney has invested in are run by ROBOTS?!!  Psst... revelation... businesses hire PEOPLE -- i.e., "bringing a lot of people along with him" -- do you think the 2,000+ Staples Stores, for example, are automated/self-serve?!!  Good GAWD... this had to be explained to you?!!  REALLY?!! [8|]





Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 11:35:26 AM)

And yet, Nick is a moron for pointing out that all these new jobs aren't appearing.

Whatever. It's not a message I expected you to consider.

Enjoy.





MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 11:39:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Nick is a moron.



Yes, he is.


quote:



Whatever.



[sm=rofl.gif] LOL... Facts are FUN ! ! ! [sm=rofl.gif]





Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 11:45:27 AM)

quote:

Facts are FUN !


That's why our current policies are so upside down. When you have a tax system in which most of the exemptions and the lowest rates benefit the richest, all in the name of job creation, all that happens is that the rich get richer.

Since 1980 the share of income for the richest Americans has more than tripled while effective tax rates have declined by close to 50%.

If it were true that lower tax rates and more wealth for the wealthy would lead to more job creation, then today we would be drowning in jobs. And yet unemployment and under-employment is at record highs.

Another reason this idea is so wrong-headed is that there can never be enough superrich Americans to power a great economy. The annual earnings of people like me are hundreds, if not thousands, of times greater than those of the median American, but we don't buy hundreds or thousands of times more stuff. My family owns three cars, not 3,000. I buy a few pairs of pants and a few shirts a year, just like most American men. Like everyone else, we go out to eat with friends and family only occasionally.

I can't buy enough of anything to make up for the fact that millions of unemployed and underemployed Americans can't buy any new clothes or cars or enjoy any meals out. Or to make up for the decreasing consumption of the vast majority of American families that are barely squeaking by, buried by spiraling costs and trapped by stagnant or declining wages.

Here's an incredible fact. If the typical American family still got today the same share of income they earned in 1980, they would earn about 25% more and have an astounding $13,000 more a year. Where would the economy be if that were the case?




MasterSlaveLA -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 11:50:19 AM)

 
You really would do well to learn the difference between FACTS and the OPINIONS.

So riddle me this, Batman... how do "consumers" gain income in order to purchase goods?!!





DomKen -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 11:53:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterSlaveLA

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

...there are many ways around Capital gains taxes if you are wealthy. Loss carry forwards can wipe out CG taxes entirely



Ummm... WRONG!!!  This may be a revelation to class-warfare spouting zombies, but EVERYONE CAN CARRY FORWARD CAPITAL GAINS LOSSES -- not just the "wealthy".  That's right... ANYONE!!!  Thus, as I stated, there is absolutely NOTHING concerning Capital Gains that isn't EXACTLY THE SAME FOR EVERYONE!!!



Except most people will never have any taxable capital gains.




Musicmystery -> RE: The True Job Creators (5/19/2012 11:54:04 AM)

quote:

So riddle me this, Batman... how do "consumers" gain income in order to purchase goods?!!


From the jobs that aren't being created while we cut taxes for the wealthy?





Page: [1] 2 3 4 5   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875